Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

[draino]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

dudd,
if we teach jamaicans from early on what the differences between patois and english are, it can only help them to speak better english and not confuse the two.

what can be said of welsh with around 300,000 speakers? there are language learning books for welsh. it is taught in universities.

what can be said of latin? it is taught at the highest levels. nobody speaks it (unless perhaps for fun, religious reasons, or to show off on friends).

the utility of a language does not rest in the number of speakers who speak it. latin should illustrate that even dead languages have their place in today's world.

andronian, thanks for the reply. i wouldn't describe what is taking place in europe as an 'anglicisation' but really and truly an 'americanisation' of their languages. americanisms are rapidly infiltrating their languages and changing their structure. i don't mean only a few loan words. whole reflexive forms are being discarded. literal foreign language equivalents of english forms are popping up in these languages.

[draino]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Is,nt it strange that all these developed countries are eveoving their language little by lirrle to english,while you arer using it as an example why Jamaica should teach patois in schools. In other words Jamaicans are the only really smart ones in the planet, or they should act as if they are.
Wht is every other country getting more immersed in English while we are encoutaging out educators to get us more immersed in a language that only 3-6 million Jamaicans speak?
So that we can develope self esteem?
Of being in demand and having your own unique language that nobody else speak,I wonder which would imprkve a people's self esteem!!

dudd probably cannot speak a foreign language and is probably one of those who thinks all those who cannot speak english should. accept my apologies if it is not so but i cannot possibly comprehened how someone who speaks a foreign language would take your position.

your remarks reveal an inherent disregard for the beauty of diversity in language. what a dull world it would be if everyone spoke only our former colonial master's language. in any case, it is the tendency of languages to fragment and give rise to new variations -- geographic spread of speakers being one of the factors. there are always the inevitable sound shifts, colloquialisms, infilitration from other languages that change languages.

the importance of english is of course hinged on america's dominance in the world. as the country with the greatest economy and the only superpower many nations interested in doing business with the superpower turn out graduates from their schools who can converse in that language. for that very reason american businessmen also tried their hand at japanese when that was also the in-thing. when the soviet union was still around, many countries trained their students to speak russian. if the soviet union had triumphed, it would not have been strange at all that russian were the "international language."

that was a somewhat simplistic view. i omitted to mention that english lends itself well to international language because of its simple grammar. however, there is still another language that would function better in that role. spanish. simple syntax. straightforward orthography. few complicated phonemes (fewer than english!)

perhaps if a spanish speaking nation robs america of its number one spot then the likes of doctor dudd will be telling us of the manifold advantages of the spanish tongue. ;-)

[neochin]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

actually, patois has an even simpler grammer than all the complexities of english special cases. patois is actually a simplification of the english language.

examples using kingstonian patois:
cat - cats;fish - fishes; sheep - sheep;mouse - mice

cat - catdem; fish - fish-dem; sheep - sheep-dem; mus-mus - mus-mus dem


run-ran; walk-walked; sit-sat; throw-threw

run-did run; walk-did walk; sit - did sit; throw-did thow

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Sorry, ignore.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by draino:
[qb] dudd,
if we teach jamaicans from early on what the differences between patois and english are, it can only help them to speak better english and not confuse the two.

what can be said of welsh with around 300,000 speakers? there are language learning books for welsh. it is taught in universities.

what can be said of latin? it is taught at the highest levels. nobody speaks it (unless perhaps for fun, religious reasons, or to show off on friends).

the utility of a language does not rest in the number of speakers who speak it. latin should illustrate that even dead languages have their place in today's world.

andronian, thanks for the reply. i wouldn't describe what is taking place in europe as an 'anglicisation' but really and truly an 'americanisation' of their languages. americanisms are rapidly infiltrating their languages and changing their structure. i don't mean only a few loan words. whole reflexive forms are being discarded. literal foreign language equivalents of english forms are popping up in these languages. [/qb]

Do Tell which Jamaican need to be topld that patois is different from English?
There is no need to tell Jamaicans that there is a difference because they akresdy know. Just as ther is no need to teach patois in schools nevaise jamaicans learn it enouth outside of schools. What they need to do is to really teach english,so that Jamaicans can be really bilingual,but teaching patois in schiils will only cause some students not to bother with English as happened in Haiti and in the long run we loose a generation that does not understans and able to communicate ibn English. We may make the same misrake that the German/Polish Jews did. To reach their kids in Yiddish a language that is not spoken anywhere else. It was very useful ti the Nazi,after they were mistly unemployanle,and also seperated by language. It was easy to ientifyand round them up to be murdered.

[browning111]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Not patois - but someone just mangled the queen's english!!!

Typoglycemia

Don 't delete this because it looks weird.

Believe it or not, you can read it


I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch taem at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy,

it deosn 't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are,

the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef,

but the wrod as a wlohe. Such a cdonition is arppoiately cllaed Typoglycemia


Amzanig huh?

Yaeh and yuo awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by browning111:
[qb] Not patois - but someone just mangled the queen's english!!!

Typoglycemia

Don 't delete this because it looks weird.

Believe it or not, you can read it


I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch taem at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy,

it deosn 't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are,

the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef,

but the wrod as a wlohe. Such a cdonition is arppoiately cllaed Typoglycemia


Amzanig huh?

Yaeh and yuo awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt [/qb]

ha ha [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Do Tell which Jamaican need to be topld that patois is different from English?
There is no need to tell Jamaicans that there is a difference because they akresdy know. Just as ther is no need to teach patois in schools nevaise jamaicans learn it enouth outside of schools. What they need to do is to really teach english,so that Jamaicans can be really bilingual,but teaching patois in schiils will only cause some students not to bother with English as happened in Haiti and in the long run we loose a generation that does not understans and able to communicate ibn English. We may make the same misrake that the German/Polish Jews did. To reach their kids in Yiddish a language that is not spoken anywhere else. It was very useful ti the Nazi,after they were mistly unemployanle,and also seperated by language. It was easy to ientifyand round them up to be murdered

Yu naa really get di point dud.

If I, as a child, went to Japan and was tossed into school situation where the ability to speak Japanese fluently was assumed I would probably do very badly. If everytime I opened my mouth I was accused of speaking poorly I'd probably withdraw and not want to comment. However, if someone there understood English and taught me Japanese I would really start enjoying school.

Obviously the difference between english and Japanese is not the difference between english and patois but hopefully you get my point.

I'm increasingly against the approach that treats students as if they don't have competence in a lanugage already. A slavery days bizniz dat.

Besides, understanding the grammar of your own tongue helps you in learning a new language. A teacher could say that 'dem' is used to mark plurals in Jamaican and the equivalent is usually '-s' in english. So 'kyar-dem' in Jamaican is 'cars' in english. Right away students will know it's just a different way of handling the same concept.

Your fear of monolingualism in patois is unfounded. Papiamentu (which is based mostly on Portuguese and Spanish) exists alongside official Dutch in the ABC Islands and it's a recognized language there.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Your fear of monolingualism in patois is unfounded. Papiamentu (which is based mostly on Portuguese and Spanish) exists alongside official Dutch in the ABC Islands and it's a recognized language there

This happen because they teach the students Dutch in schools and not papimento and Dutch.
All I am saying os that there is no logical reasin to teach students in patois,because if Jamaica mobe their lituracy level to 98-100% they won't need it.
It is nuch easier to raise the litutacy rate and also much more beneticial than to divert scarce funds,( or evem if some judas posing as benefactor,decide to give gtant),it should noy be done.
The fprmer Jamaicans who populate places like Panama,Costa Rica Cuba,Guatamala,Colombia etc speaks Spanish,though many still speak a form pof patois. there is no reason why the Jamai8cvans in Jamaica can't speak English without any reference topatois.
teaching patois is a backwatd syep.
It will put Jamaicans in an isolated position,and remove the main source of black conciousness from being spreading to a world wide audence.
TheY want to shut us up and they are trying to use this ruse,to strike our egos,because they know that they cant get us to do that any other way.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Yu a taak whole heap a rhetoric Dud. Yu have newspaper and dem supm de inna papiamentu. Is a well established language. The people of the ABC islands have made it so.

Teaching english with reference to Patois is a beter plan than pretending patois doesn't exist. Somtimes students don't realise that simply replacing patois words with their english equivalents does not a good english sentence make. To fully understand the distinction they should know the grammar of both their tongues.

WE SPEAK IT ALREADY. There is nothing wrong with UNDERSTANDING the structure of our speech. That foundation will make english grammar easier to understand.

Pickney a fail CXC english like crazy so mi no know if wi current approach is something to refuse to question. Mi agree with yu bout certain tings in odda threads but ya so your opinion seems governed by alot of paranoia.

[draino]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

the gospel according to andronian. what i would have said but didn't because dudd always comes back with the same thing like a broken tape recorder.

the misunderstanding here is this:
dudd thinks we mean teach *exclusively* in patois

if dudd would only re-read what was already written he would realise that we have not called for that.

by the way dudd, there is no global language conspiracy. there is no secret plan to change our language to the orwellian "newspeak."

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Better yet don't bother teach them anything,because the kids know enough patois to survive. It is dumb to waste their opportinity to learn somthing that will mke them reach thir potential to deal with the WTO world.
The papiamento that they speak in the ABC Island is what they use as excuse to exclude the blacks from the tourist industry other than as janitors,and laundry workers.
There is a high failure rate in engkish semply because oif the lack of appropriate texts ro really teach the students the rudementary of English.
I cant forget how surprized I was in my senior years when I got a copy of Prentice Hall's Reference Guide To grammar Usage.whem I was doing english. I was amazed that the sunject could be explained as simple as it is done in thar text.
I went on to teach kids that were supposed to be drop out then and got the surproze of my lige when they all passed english.
I am convinced that enflish is not being yaught properly,and that is the reason for the failure rate.
It has nothing to do with recognizing patwa.
That is a cop out.

[neochin]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] Better yet don't bother teach them anything,because the kids know enough patois to survive. It is dumb to waste their opportinity to learn somthing that will mke them reach thir potential to deal with the WTO world.
The papiamento that they speak in the ABC Island is what they use as excuse to exclude the blacks from the tourist industry other than as janitors,and laundry workers.
There is a high failure rate in engkish semply because oif the lack of appropriate texts ro really teach the students the rudementary of English.
I cant forget how surprized I was in my senior years when I got a copy of Prentice Hall's Reference Guide To grammar Usage.whem I was doing english. I was amazed that the sunject could be explained as simple as it is done in thar text.
I went on to teach kids that were supposed to be drop out then and got the surproze of my lige when they all passed english.
I am convinced that enflish is not being yaught properly,and that is the reason for the failure rate.
It has nothing to do with recognizing patwa.
That is a cop out. [/qb]

hahahaha. you think people see that book in american school either? trust me. that book isn't seen until university in america. can't both approaches be used?


and if you examine your freakish vehemence on this subject, you'll realise that your feelings are being distorted by an english colonial hatred that is hundreds of years old.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Where patois may or may not get you

Tara Abrahams-Clivio
Thursday, November 17, 2005



Tara Abrahams-Clivio
Britain's Financial Times recently published an article that begins with the writer describing picking up a young relative from the "all-white classroom of his expensive school in London, and being somewhat startled by his greeting, "Wha' a g'wan on, man?" The young man she describes is "already wondering whether to apply to Oxford University" while at the same time is boasting this new style of speech which linguists have dubbed "London Jamaican English".

The subtitle of the article speaks to the profound effect Jamaican argot has on spoken English, but notes that it is unlikely to be on the syllabuses of the posh white teenagers' private schools. Instead it is learnt on the playground and from listening to music. According to David Crystal, author of The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, the shift in the language can be attributed to hip-hop music which has a very heavy Jamaican influence. According to Tony Thorne, head of the Language Centre at King's College, University of London, Afro-Caribbean words entered young, white Londoners' speech in the 1970s, and this influence has deepened and even entered the mainstream. So it seems that through our powerful musical ambassadors, the world is realising what we already knew, that Jamaican patois is vibrant, infectious and more important to the young, it is cool.

This article came out around the time the Observer published the results of an islandwide survey conducted by the Jamaica Language Unit of the University of the West Indies, which suggested that the majority of Jamaicans felt patois should be the official language of Jamaica, citing as an example that parliamentarians should address Gordon House in this language. My initial reaction to the survey was that parliamentarians could address Gordon House in Croatian and few would notice a substantive difference, but the implication is much greater.

If patois were to become Jamaica's first language, we would effectively remove the impetus for many of our youth ever to learn English fluently. We must celebrate the power of our native tongue. Certainly in my limited exposure to linguistics I have never found a term of endearment equal to "Mi luv yu like mi love cook food" or a more creative way to admonish someone as, "Yu..." (insert one of many alternatives, or many in succession). The latter example, I might add, has crossed my mind with some frequency in recent weeks. While Jamaican patois is part of our uniqueness, it is priceless to our DJs and musicians, and mastery of it will put you in the height of global fashion. But it will limit you, if you have not also mastered one of the world's most widely accepted languages.

As parents we all strive to give our children opportunities. For some it may be college abroad. For others it may be to encourage them to work overseas, or even with an international organisation, or in the local hotel industry. And especially because of Jamaica's present conditions, many Jamaicans are driven to keep the options open for their children. In this global environment educators will suggest that students should know not just one of the major languages, they should know two or three. But at the same time here in Jamaica we seem to be taking steps to ensure that our children will master not even one.

Linguists will tell you that the best way to master a language is with total immersion. As most Jamaicans are most comfortable speaking with friends and family in patois, it therefore is the language spoken at home and socially; if we are to ensure that our children are equipped for the global market then we must immerse them in a global language, maintaining English at least as our "official" language. If a global education is what we aspire to give our children, we must equip them with a fluency in a language in which they can easily access that education. Nelson Mandela has a collection of his Favourite African Folktales. It is a colourful book which, according to Bill Cosby, "introduces children and adults alike to the magical world of African fairy tales and creation myths". The book has many wonderful lessons along with often funny stories, and is translated into English.
So is the Bible, The Economist, and just about any book on Astrophysics that you might find.

The Financial Times writer suggests that her young relative is unlikely to shake all the vestiges of this exposure to Jamaican patois during university and beyond, so she ends with the statement, "If Britain is perhaps not to have a black prime minister any time soon, we may at least hope for one with a Jamaican accent." But if the British are to master our language to their advantage, likewise we must master theirs to our advantage, so that perhaps one day soon Britain will have a prime minister with a Jamaican accent, one she got directly from her parents.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Mek dem go dead a bush.

Di bess way fi Japanese learn english too is total immersion? Mek dem stop chat fi dem tongue a dem yaad. Same ting fi di Mexican dem. Yeah right!

I'm so tired of reading these ignorant diatribes of the type that appear in the Gleaner's letters section. Almost every Jamaican speaks patois (and a tiny number of non-jamaicans) yet if wi recognize that fact all of a sudden di island gwine sink inna di sea. lol

Many Jamaicans need to learn english as a second language. We are doing ourselves an injustice by not recognizing our bilingual status.

Mi no tink mi have a whole heap more breath fi dis. Mek mi jos se:

That patois is not english in neitehr grammar nor pronunciation is a fact.

That most Jamaicans learn patois natively is a fact.

[All I mean by this is that they learn it as children and don't need to be taught to speak it. This is not because it's 'simpler' than english. Children in Mexico learn Spanish natively and those in Japan learn Japanese natively. It's part of the human makeup. If you're not deaf or mentally retarded you'll learn to speak the language spoken around you by 6 or so]

Therefore, it follows that if someone knows a language already and you're trying to teach them a new one it's going to be their second language. Children in Jamaica are often treated as if they should know english already (as if it were natively acquired) and that's part of where the educational system breaks down.

The end result is many people that can speak patois fluently but can't read or write it (this is not taught) but might be able to read a little english but can't speak or write it well.

Everybody sees this and thinks it's an imperfect situation. However, those with colonial mindsets see eradication of patois as the only solution despite the fact that mutliple official languages co-exist in many other countries.

Bah!

Eradication is doomed to failure unless you genocide us wretched patois speaking Jamaicans and import some english people to populate the island.