You don't understand what we do, Observer

[evanovitch]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is the basic non support of the group due to its being perceived to be made up of 'elitists', to choose a word?

i.e. people who dont have to cotton to anyone for anyting seeing dat dem is fi di most pawt, independently well off </div></div>

I don't think that has anything to do with the lack of support because most of the NGOs in Jamaica that get public support involve the very same kinds of people and the population is quite happy for the clothes, food and so forth.

In response to a great letter by O Hilaire Sobers, it is correct to call out the media for its roll in contributing to the perception.

I however would have loved to have seen the finger also pointed at the HRGs for not doing enough on their part on the ground to get support from communities. The media is not all-powerful and controlling, there are ways around them and the groups need to engage guerilla marketing and pr tactics because it is important.

I would also say that I believe that HRGs are not just about the State vs. citizens. The ones that get the most publicity are, but HRGs should focus on ALL breaches of rights and speak up for ALL law-abiding citizens. </div></div>

because people accept the help given them, it, (the acceptance), does not bely underlying resentments.....jcan society is a repeating one of behaviours...

[mountaingal]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

human rights groups, as with environmental groups and a number of other NGOs led by &quot;elite&quot; jamaicans will always struggle for legitimacy because jamaica's history gets in the way of the leadership's relationship with the masses of jamaicans who stand to benefit from the cause. if jamaica had a larger and perhaps less stressed middle class, some of these NGOs may have gained some ground, but the way the society is now...

JFJ and HRG bang their drums really from the safety of their leaders' position in society. mullings is right, imo, in that the leaders need to quit trying to use the media to gain legitimacy, and need to go directly to the people affected. however, imo, this is very hard for the NGO leaders to do because they would have to cede some power to the community folk, and i don't believe the leaders really trust the community folk to do things &quot;right&quot;. mobilization around the issue of human rights within garrison communities seems a non-starter for all kinds of reasons(not the least of which is personal safety), but it is this very on-the-ground mobilization that is required to add urgency and legitimacy to the pursuit of greater respect for people's human rights. it can be achieved through perhaps a model of building &quot;garrison&quot; community affiliates and stewards who can work within their own environments to identify and act on the various ways to advance human rights (i'd bet jobs and ways out of poverty would be seen as a great way to start to get people to appreciate and value human rights).

guerilla marketing as a tactic i'm not sold on as a way to gain favour for a group on a social issue in dire circumstances. human rights is not a product. it is an engagement, and that is what is necessary for the leaders of HRGs.

my 2 cents.

[DONOTvote]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer





<span style="font-size: 14pt">Gomes and her JFJ and various others in Jamaica are utterly clueless about defending human rights in Jamaica. Simply to concentrate on &quot;extra judicial killings by security forces&quot; while ignoring completely the fact that such killings mostly have a similar reasoning as &quot;mob killings&quot; -namely that the justice system is failing.

There is a ridiculous situation where extremely dangerous felons are granted bail (some of whom while on bail commit further capital crimes including eliminating witnesses),others are set free because of &quot;lack of evidence&quot; (witnesses murdered) etc WILL inevitably give rise to illegal killings by both the security forces and revenging &quot;mobs&quot;.

Because JFJ etc ignore this Jamaican crime-laden reality they end up singling out cops and giving abstract notions about &quot;individual freedoms&quot; without understanding that individual freedom must be SUBORDINATED to collective freedom.Without this,indivual freedom becomes a mere catchphrase.

As was pointed out by myself and Mr Mullings the JFJ should be targetting ALL violations of human rights.

<span style="font-weight: bold">For JFJ to be taken seriously they should organise a <span style="font-weight: bold">political campaign</span> against:

1. the deep and widespread corrupt activity of state officials
2. PNP/JLP sponsorship of criminal gangs such as One Order and Clansmen
3.the existence of &quot;garrisons&quot;
etc etc
</span>
TG you said it was nonsense I was talking when I said that its possible for big crime gangs to surreptitiously give funds to JFJ. Let me put it another way, if you were a crime boss would you not be pleased with the work of JFJ ?

If Gomes and JFJ was doing the job they claim to stand for they would be be feared by criminals including those corrupt ones who are state officials!

I have personally sent several letters to JFJ politely requesting assistance in a human rights matter and up until now the so-called JFJ does not even have the common professional courtesy to acknowledge receipt of the correspondence.

This is not surprising because as I said at the beginning, such organisations deal primarily in intellectual postering based on abstractions instead of plain everday hard work to defend the interest of the Jamaican public.They end up spending most of their energy defending perpetrators of crime and not the thousands upon thousands of victims.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The chief violations of human rights in Jamaica today stem from the corrupt political leadership of the two parties and all their associates.</span></span>

[color:#FF0000][/color]

[David Mullings]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">human rights groups, as with environmental groups and a number of other NGOs led by &quot;elite&quot; jamaicans will always struggle for legitimacy because jamaica's history gets in the way of the leadership's relationship with the masses of jamaicans who stand to benefit from the cause. if jamaica had a larger and perhaps less stressed middle class, some of these NGOs may have gained some ground, but the way the society is now...

JFJ and HRG bang their drums really from the safety of their leaders' position in society. mullings is right, imo, in that the leaders need to quit trying to use the media to gain legitimacy, and need to go directly to the people affected. however, imo, this is very hard for the NGO leaders to do because they would have to cede some power to the community folk, and i don't believe the leaders really trust the community folk to do things &quot;right&quot;. mobilization around the issue of human rights within garrison communities seems a non-starter for all kinds of reasons(not the least of which is personal safety), but it is this very on-the-ground mobilization that is required to add urgency and legitimacy to the pursuit of greater respect for people's human rights. it can be achieved through perhaps a model of building &quot;garrison&quot; community affiliates and stewards who can work within their own environments to identify and act on the various ways to advance human rights (i'd bet jobs and ways out of poverty would be seen as a great way to start to get people to appreciate and value human rights).

guerilla marketing as a tactic i'm not sold on as a way to gain favour for a group on a social issue in dire circumstances. human rights is not a product. it is an engagement, and that is what is necessary for the leaders of HRGs.

my 2 cents.
</div></div>

Marketing does not apply only to products, it applies to people and to ideas.

Barack Obama has marketed the idea of change through guerilla marketing - on the ground efforts, grassroots. That is what guerilla marketing is.

None of the HRGs have done that. Where have they gone into the communities and spoken to people, held town hall meetings, videotaped their stories and published them for the World to see or even just handed out some pamphlets that explain who they are and why you should support them?

I have had this entrepreneurial itch to get something going in the way of REAL human rights - focusing on the plight of people in inner cities, and bypassing the mainstream media in Jamaica for the support.

I shot this video years ago and now Current TV in the USA is talking with me about shooting a lot more - Basher - a voice from an inner city.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3JWwVP2nEEw"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3JWwVP2nEEw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

I am just one person with a videocamera. Imagine what happens when we mobilize more people, give cameras to people INSIDE the communities and pay them to document their surroundings?

We can't change what we don't know or understand.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DONOTvote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">Gomes and her JFJ and various others in Jamaica are utterly clueless about defending human rights in Jamaica. Simply to concentrate on &quot;extra judicial killings by security forces&quot; while ignoring completely the fact that such killings mostly have a similar reasoning as &quot;mob killings&quot; -namely that the justice system is failing.
</span></span> </div></div>

Why don't you write your idiotic arguments louder? First try to learn to read and overstand it has be stated and restated hundreds of times what the HRNGOs are about.
Secondly the Human Rights Organizations are foremost in the fight to see a better Justice System.

<span style="font-size: 14pt">HRNGOs</span> do not commit crimes, does not have the power to fix roads, light, water or the Justice System. The State must be forced to do it duty.

[David Mullings]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DONOTvote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">Gomes and her JFJ and various others in Jamaica are utterly clueless about defending human rights in Jamaica. Simply to concentrate on &quot;extra judicial killings by security forces&quot; while ignoring completely the fact that such killings mostly have a similar reasoning as &quot;mob killings&quot; -namely that the justice system is failing.
[color:#FF0000]</span></span> </div></div>

Why don't you write your idiotic arguments louder? First try to learn to read and overstand it has be stated and restated hundreds of times what the HRNGOs are about.
Secondly the Human Rights Organizations are foremost in the fight to see a better Justice System.

<span style="font-size: 14pt">HRNGOs</span> do not commit crimes, does not have the power to fix roads, light, water or the Justice System. The State must be forced to do it duty.
</div></div>

Tuff Gong, if a group is interested in &quot;Human Rights&quot; then they should be concerned about the safety of humans and their living conditions.

While NGOs do not build roads, they can draw attention to the plight of people - like an Oxfam - they can solicit donations to provide access to information - like Green Wi-Fi is doing for solar-powered internet access - install solar power equipment - like TREC.

I could go on and on about NGOs actually doing stuff other than talking about the State killing people.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DONOTvote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-size: 14pt">TG you said it was nonsense I was talking when I said that its possible for big crime gangs to surreptitiously give funds to JFJ. Let me put it another way, if you were a crime boss would you not be pleased with the work of JFJ ?</span></div></div>

I actually meant <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">your whole post </span>was arrant nonsense and the ranting of an obviously disturbed mind, but I did not feel like quoting the whole mess.

If I was a Jamaican Citizen living in Jamaica I would be semi-pleased with the work of JFJ and others. I would want them to do more, such as taking the State to Court more often, publishing more frequently their findings, developing their own Independent Media outlets to counter lackey Press and Media in Jamaica.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Tuff Gong, if a group is interested in &quot;Human Rights&quot; then they should be concerned about the safety of humans and their living conditions.</div></div>

...and <span style="font-size: 17pt">you </span>are certain <span style="font-size: 17pt">they</span> are not <span style="font-size: 17pt">so concerned</span>?

[mountaingal]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">human rights groups, as with environmental groups and a number of other NGOs led by &quot;elite&quot; jamaicans will always struggle for legitimacy because jamaica's history gets in the way of the leadership's relationship with the masses of jamaicans who stand to benefit from the cause. if jamaica had a larger and perhaps less stressed middle class, some of these NGOs may have gained some ground, but the way the society is now...

JFJ and HRG bang their drums really from the safety of their leaders' position in society. mullings is right, imo, in that the leaders need to quit trying to use the media to gain legitimacy, and need to go directly to the people affected. however, imo, this is very hard for the NGO leaders to do because they would have to cede some power to the community folk, and i don't believe the leaders really trust the community folk to do things &quot;right&quot;. mobilization around the issue of human rights within garrison communities seems a non-starter for all kinds of reasons(not the least of which is personal safety), but it is this very on-the-ground mobilization that is required to add urgency and legitimacy to the pursuit of greater respect for people's human rights. it can be achieved through perhaps a model of building &quot;garrison&quot; community affiliates and stewards who can work within their own environments to identify and act on the various ways to advance human rights (i'd bet jobs and ways out of poverty would be seen as a great way to start to get people to appreciate and value human rights).

guerilla marketing as a tactic i'm not sold on as a way to gain favour for a group on a social issue in dire circumstances. human rights is not a product. it is an engagement, and that is what is necessary for the leaders of HRGs.

my 2 cents.
</div></div>

Marketing does not apply only to products, it applies to people and to ideas.

Barack Obama has marketed the idea of change through guerilla marketing - on the ground efforts, grassroots. That is what guerilla marketing is.

None of the HRGs have done that. Where have they gone into the communities and spoken to people, held town hall meetings, videotaped their stories and published them for the World to see or even just handed out some pamphlets that explain who they are and why you should support them?

I have had this entrepreneurial itch to get something going in the way of REAL human rights - focusing on the plight of people in inner cities, and bypassing the mainstream media in Jamaica for the support.

I shot this video years ago and now Current TV in the USA is talking with me about shooting a lot more - Basher - a voice from an inner city.

I am just one person with a videocamera. Imagine what happens when we mobilize more people, give cameras to people INSIDE the communities and pay them to document their surroundings?

We can't change what we don't know or understand. </div></div>
we appear to agree on the need for mobilization. marketing that mobilization - well, i remain unconvinced of the efficacy of that in building HRG's legitimacy. you can have all kinds of town hall meetings for the purpose of showing people that you are having town hall meetings - great, where is the actual change that will come from that? the risk of doing things for appearances' sake only is real in the jamaican context, because the real hard work is very messy and may not make a nice neat marketing video. there is an assumption that HRGs can go in and be hailed automatically as champions in some of those communities - what would you do of footage that shows otherwise?

plus, i'm not sure the obama model would work in jamaica because access to the tools (in particular computers) that enable guerilla marketing in the states are simply not as available among the jamaican masses.

i think if HRGs really do mobilization, mr. sobers' view notwithstanding, then they will pull the mainstream media along.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While NGOs do not build roads, they can draw attention to the plight of people - like an Oxfam - they can solicit donations to provide access to information - like Green Wi-Fi is doing for solar-powered internet access - install solar power equipment - like TREC.

I could go on and on about NGOs actually doing stuff other than talking about the State killing people. </div></div>
You are talking a bag of nonsense. I am a member of Amnesty International, I am also a member of the Red Cross, was a Member of the Sierra Club, was a Member of Audubon, ever since I lived in Jamaica. My friend you claim to be educated but your arguments smacks of the illiterate/the deceptive or both, there are a myriad of NGOs, Charities, Clubs, Groups and Organizations focusing on Special Areas, I am pretty sure you will find cross-membership of individuals in a number of these Organizations. The area of attention we are trying to discuss here is <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Human Rights </span>not <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">World Hunger</span>.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JFJ and HRG bang their drums really from the safety of their leaders' position in society. mullings is right, imo, in that the leaders need to quit trying to use the media to gain legitimacy, and need to go directly to the people affected.</div></div>

The HRGS directly interface with the aggrieved daily what the <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">F </span>do you know or do you just run your 32 from the safety of your Cubicle via Keyboard and Monitor?

[mountaingal]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

well, if you're going to start swearing at me *shrug* no point in answering, just not worth my time. i have spent time working in the NGO sector in Jamaica, perhaps more recently than you.

have a good day TG.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... there is an assumption that HRGs can go in and be hailed automatically as champions in some of those communities - what would you do of footage that shows otherwise?

plus, i'm not sure the obama model would work in jamaica because access to the tools (in particular computers) that enable guerilla marketing in the states are simply not as available among the jamaican masses.

i think if HRGs really do mobilization, mr. sobers' view notwithstanding, then they will pull the mainstream media along. </div></div>


...who is making assumptions?
The JFJ and other HRGs hold regular scheduled meetings and Town Halls long before you and your other parrots apparently knew anything about the words Town Hall.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">have a good day TG.
</div></div>


....you too!

[Wahalla]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

I am with you on this.. MG.. but the sense is that this is led by tapanaris so, does add some questioability to the process... It is odd that both parties are essentially led by the middle classes and have always been and will be.. Andthey have the support of the poor who do their killing and or bidding....

A problem I see is what is called marketing... Making people aware of their rights and their responsibilities of both the goverment and them selves.. Do the JFJ go to the dance hall, rum bar or simple address those they are comfortable with ???? Is the JFJ the forum to take on this role ???? Think of them as the high level instituter of change.. A kind of Rotory Club for rights...There actually should be another organisation that looks to teach Jamaicans of not only their rights but responsibilites.. I dont mena the church who tell us all become grease cans, rastas who tell us livity, socialist who tell us revolution, black nationalist who call for African ness.. While these organisations tell us of these things, this function is secondary to their primary function which is gaining new members...



Rather an organistion that focus on the here and now... This should not be nessesary as it should have already been in place through the education system..

And no I think there is a middle class in Jamaica that is quite large... rathr there is a white collar class that too often does not step out of its comfort zone.... And does not feel secure enough in its own existance to see, those outside the formal economy as having equal value to them.. And it has for far too long seen the victims of state brutality as the cause of their own circumstance...

My admiration for the JFJ as is is the fact unlike so many they dont say the goverment should fix it.. They taken ownership and attempt to fix it! How often have we heard the comment &quot;dem big man fi get tugeda and fix tings&quot;.. Well for once here is a group that does...


For once we have a debate on here that does nto say all we should do is wait till the revolution or god's arrival