You don't understand what we do, Observer

[David Mullings]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While NGOs do not build roads, they can draw attention to the plight of people - like an Oxfam - they can solicit donations to provide access to information - like Green Wi-Fi is doing for solar-powered internet access - install solar power equipment - like TREC.

I could go on and on about NGOs actually doing stuff other than talking about the State killing people. </div></div>
You are talking a bag of nonsense. I am a member of Amnesty International, I am also a member of the Red Cross, was a Member of the Sierra Club, was a Member of Audubon, ever since I lived in Jamaica. My friend you claim to be educated but your arguments smacks of the illiterate/the deceptive or both, there are a myriad of NGOs, Charities, Clubs, Groups and Organizations focusing on Special Areas, I am pretty sure you will find cross-membership of individuals in a number of these Organizations. The area of attention we are trying to discuss here is <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Human Rights </span>not <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">World Hunger</span>.
</div></div>

I am not talking a bag of nonsense.

You are merely using a very narrow definition of &quot;human rights&quot;. The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights states the following:

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

Now all of these are declared as &quot;Human Rights&quot; by the United Nations and so I would expect human rights groups to focus on ALL of the rights listed within that document and not merely some of the articles.

World hunger has nothing to do with what I mentioned above or in my previous post and the UN backs up my assertions that &quot;human rights&quot; are much wider than what JFJ seems to stand for.

I will stand corrected if you can point me to the work by JFJ and others regarding the human rights listed above.

[David Mullings]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">human rights groups, as with environmental groups and a number of other NGOs led by &quot;elite&quot; jamaicans will always struggle for legitimacy because jamaica's history gets in the way of the leadership's relationship with the masses of jamaicans who stand to benefit from the cause. if jamaica had a larger and perhaps less stressed middle class, some of these NGOs may have gained some ground, but the way the society is now...

JFJ and HRG bang their drums really from the safety of their leaders' position in society. mullings is right, imo, in that the leaders need to quit trying to use the media to gain legitimacy, and need to go directly to the people affected. however, imo, this is very hard for the NGO leaders to do because they would have to cede some power to the community folk, and i don't believe the leaders really trust the community folk to do things &quot;right&quot;. mobilization around the issue of human rights within garrison communities seems a non-starter for all kinds of reasons(not the least of which is personal safety), but it is this very on-the-ground mobilization that is required to add urgency and legitimacy to the pursuit of greater respect for people's human rights. it can be achieved through perhaps a model of building &quot;garrison&quot; community affiliates and stewards who can work within their own environments to identify and act on the various ways to advance human rights (i'd bet jobs and ways out of poverty would be seen as a great way to start to get people to appreciate and value human rights).

guerilla marketing as a tactic i'm not sold on as a way to gain favour for a group on a social issue in dire circumstances. human rights is not a product. it is an engagement, and that is what is necessary for the leaders of HRGs.

my 2 cents.
</div></div>

Marketing does not apply only to products, it applies to people and to ideas.

Barack Obama has marketed the idea of change through guerilla marketing - on the ground efforts, grassroots. That is what guerilla marketing is.

None of the HRGs have done that. Where have they gone into the communities and spoken to people, held town hall meetings, videotaped their stories and published them for the World to see or even just handed out some pamphlets that explain who they are and why you should support them?

I have had this entrepreneurial itch to get something going in the way of REAL human rights - focusing on the plight of people in inner cities, and bypassing the mainstream media in Jamaica for the support.

I shot this video years ago and now Current TV in the USA is talking with me about shooting a lot more - Basher - a voice from an inner city.

I am just one person with a videocamera. Imagine what happens when we mobilize more people, give cameras to people INSIDE the communities and pay them to document their surroundings?

We can't change what we don't know or understand. </div></div>
we appear to agree on the need for mobilization. marketing that mobilization - well, i remain unconvinced of the efficacy of that in building HRG's legitimacy. you can have all kinds of town hall meetings for the purpose of showing people that you are having town hall meetings - great, where is the actual change that will come from that? the risk of doing things for appearances' sake only is real in the jamaican context, because the real hard work is very messy and may not make a nice neat marketing video. there is an assumption that HRGs can go in and be hailed automatically as champions in some of those communities - what would you do of footage that shows otherwise?

plus, i'm not sure the obama model would work in jamaica because access to the tools (in particular computers) that enable guerilla marketing in the states are simply not as available among the jamaican masses.

i think if HRGs really do mobilization, mr. sobers' view notwithstanding, then they will pull the mainstream media along.

</div></div>

Guerilla/Grassroots marketing does not require computers, it requires will and dedication.

I am not talking about town hall meetings for the sake of meetings. I am talking about meetings for the sake of communicating with the community, getting their input and identifying projects. Future meetings help to show what has actually been done since the last meeting.

That is where the actual change comes from. Action, not a bag of mouth.

I am not advocating any &quot;nice neat marketing video&quot; either. I am talking about real videos of real people talking about their plight and then putting that out via non-traditional media.

NGOs have their own websites, we have things like YouTube and blogs, they just need to engage people with the right skills and dedication. My discussions with Current TV would see the videos broadcast on their international cable channel and could lead to donations for projects in communities.

I have done guerilla/grassroots marketing in Jamaica and can vouch for the viability of it.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While NGOs do not build roads, they can draw attention to the plight of people - like an Oxfam - they can solicit donations to provide access to information - like Green Wi-Fi is doing for solar-powered internet access - install solar power equipment - like TREC.

I could go on and on about NGOs actually doing stuff other than talking about the State killing people. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will stand corrected if you can point me to the work by JFJ and others regarding the human rights listed above. </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Of the 2 NGOs</span> you quoted above have any one of these or both:
investigated a State Killing/Abuse
taken a case to the Courts on dealing with State brutality
protested a State Killing/Abuse
sat in on Justice/Police Reform task Force(s)
produced a policy document on Security and Justice

I don't do homework, but since you went down that road, care to fully expand you case for your chosen NGOs vs. Jamaicans For Justice, FAST, The Independent Jamaica Council On Human Rights, etc?

[mountaingal]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Guerilla/Grassroots marketing does not require computers, it requires will and dedication.

I am not talking about town hall meetings for the sake of meetings. I am talking about meetings for the sake of communicating with the community, getting their input and identifying projects. Future meetings help to show what has actually been done since the last meeting.

That is where the actual change comes from. Action, not a bag of mouth.

I am not advocating any &quot;nice neat marketing video&quot; either. I am talking about real videos of real people talking about their plight and then putting that out via non-traditional media.

NGOs have their own websites, we have things like YouTube and blogs, they just need to engage people with the right skills and dedication. My discussions with Current TV would see the videos broadcast on their international cable channel and could lead to donations for projects in communities.

I have done guerilla/grassroots marketing in Jamaica and can vouch for the viability of it. </div></div>

i'm interested in an example of viable grassroots marketing that you've done in jamaica.

i'm in the communications business myself - and while i work in an environment that doesn't speak often of &quot;guerilla marketing&quot;, i'm involved in communications and marketing using new (non-traditional) media.

however, there is one adage in our business - the best communications in the world cannot fix poor policy.

if the issue here is that JFJ (and I was working in Jamaica when the group was formed) and other HRGs in Jamaica are having problems getting recognition and credit - it is NOT because of poor marketing or lack of local media attention.

it is because they have not successfully crossed the social divide between themselves and the people who suffer the worst of human rights abuses. from my observation, there is a paternalistic approach from the leadership of these groups to the oppressed. they want to do things for the people, but from the safety of their uptown addresses, their social status that simultaneously gives them access to power, social protection from oppressers, and the means to take up a cause because they can afford to. so they get <span style="font-style: italic">profile</span>, but not <span style="font-style: italic">legitimacy</span>, because it is the relationship with the oppressed that grants such legitimacy. i'm not talking about a relationship based on paternalism or case work (i'm going to take up the cause of this individual, that individual). i'm talking a relationship that engages the oppressed in decision-making about how human rights is framed, advanced, secured and defended.

there is plenty of opportunity to take a marketing approach similar to that of those purporting to help underprivileged and starving kids in africa - lots of images and messages to jerk the tear and convulse open the wallet. but these kind of images and messages are so easy to create/set up to give a sense of action - but in the end are mere illusion.

what i'm saying, Mullings, in the end, is that if HRGs are really getting through to the oppressed in their daily work (and aren't just stuck in a loop of news releases about what they want government to do), then they should be able to generate their own positive press and marketing. trying to use marketing to fix the fundamental problems of the HRGs is overstating the power of marketing as a solution.

i'm heading to JA in a few hours, and hoping to connect with some of my former coworkers. i'll try to get more insights into this issue.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what i'm saying, Mullings, in the end, is that if HRGs are really getting through to the oppressed in their daily work (and aren't just stuck in a loop of news releases about what they want government to do), then they should be able to generate their own positive press and marketing. trying to use marketing to fix the fundamental problems of the HRGs is overstating the power of marketing as a solution.</div></div>

The problem is the HRGs in Jamaica have not been more forceful.
The Media in Jamaica is merely agreeing with 90% of Jamaicans. Jamaica is a violent country where a man's/woman's right is not respected or cared about till each man/woman meet his/her own abuser.

John Public knows it, the State knows it, the Media knows it and the HRGs knows it, they are swimming against the tide, no amount of Public Relations is going to cure that. The HRGs efforts in the Public should be focused on bringing Judicial and International Pressure to bear on the State. It is a waste of time to read beatitudes to Media and other detractors.

[evanovitch]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

u know dat it is hard fi di people fi believe een an have faith in di groups wen dem notice dat dem husbands etc do bizniz wid di said companies dem supposedly tekking to task...wen dem see di said people in di society page at di said society parties....even di press will run like di wind if invited to hobnob...widespread changes needed fi all di tawk bout big dis an big dat...basic changes needed fuss

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know dat it is hard fi di people fi believe een an have faith in di groups wen dem notice dat dem husbands etc do bizniz wid di said companies dem supposedly tekking to task...wen dem see di said people in di society page at di said society parties....even di press will run like di wind if invited to hobnob...widespread changes needed fi all di tawk bout big dis an big dat...basic changes needed fuss </div></div>

I don't see how this applies to the Human Rights Organizations in Jamaica that are mentioned here, clue me in if I miss something.

[David Mullings]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While NGOs do not build roads, they can draw attention to the plight of people - like an Oxfam - they can solicit donations to provide access to information - like Green Wi-Fi is doing for solar-powered internet access - install solar power equipment - like TREC.

I could go on and on about NGOs actually doing stuff other than talking about the State killing people. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will stand corrected if you can point me to the work by JFJ and others regarding the human rights listed above. </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Of the 2 NGOs</span> you quoted above have any one of these or both:
investigated a State Killing/Abuse
taken a case to the Courts on dealing with State brutality
protested a State Killing/Abuse
sat in on Justice/Police Reform task Force(s)
produced a policy document on Security and Justice

I don't do homework, but since you went down that road, care to fully expand you case for your chosen NGOs vs. Jamaicans For Justice, FAST, The Independent Jamaica Council On Human Rights, etc?
</div></div>

The HRGs that are mentioned in the editorial that lead to this discussion have done what you listed above (to my knowledge at least).

But that is the point. You have yet to point me to what they have done related to the articles I listed that the UN describes as &quot;human rights&quot;. I expect a &quot;human rights&quot; organization to focus on ALL human rights abuses, not just a few.

Where are policy documents or actual action concerning access to quality education, electricity, water or housing?

[David Mullings]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Guerilla/Grassroots marketing does not require computers, it requires will and dedication.

I am not talking about town hall meetings for the sake of meetings. I am talking about meetings for the sake of communicating with the community, getting their input and identifying projects. Future meetings help to show what has actually been done since the last meeting.

That is where the actual change comes from. Action, not a bag of mouth.

I am not advocating any &quot;nice neat marketing video&quot; either. I am talking about real videos of real people talking about their plight and then putting that out via non-traditional media.

NGOs have their own websites, we have things like YouTube and blogs, they just need to engage people with the right skills and dedication. My discussions with Current TV would see the videos broadcast on their international cable channel and could lead to donations for projects in communities.

I have done guerilla/grassroots marketing in Jamaica and can vouch for the viability of it. </div></div>

if the issue here is that JFJ (and I was working in Jamaica when the group was formed) and other HRGs in Jamaica are having problems getting recognition and credit - it is NOT because of poor marketing or lack of local media attention.

</div></div>

&quot;trying to use marketing to fix the fundamental problems of the HRGs is overstating the power of marketing as a solution.&quot;

I totally agree and from the beginning I have said that the HGRs need to get buy-in from the public if they want to get their support.

As a marketer you understand the 5 P's:

People, Place, Price, Promotion and Product

If either one is flawed, success will not follow. I believe that either the promotion of a good product is lacking - the things that these HGRs do to help the people - or the product itself is flawed and needs to be fixed.

The easiest way to find out is to ask the people that these HGRs are supposed to be benefiting whether or not they think that they are actually benefitting.

If they say &quot;Yes&quot;, then more people need to know about the good deeds.

If they say &quot;No&quot;, then the HGRs need to go back to the drawing board.

I am tempted to start my own HRG just to prove the point that the masses can buy into and support an HRG when the right approach is taken - but that is not the reason to start an HRG.

[evanovitch]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know dat it is hard fi di people fi believe een an have faith in di groups wen dem notice dat dem husbands etc do bizniz wid di said companies dem supposedly tekking to task...wen dem see di said people in di society page at di said society parties....even di press will run like di wind if invited to hobnob...widespread changes needed fi all di tawk bout big dis an big dat...basic changes needed fuss </div></div>

I don't see how this applies to the Human Rights Organizations in Jamaica that are mentioned here, clue me in if I miss something. </div></div>

if u miss it den u not in di know as u tink u know...a long time ago wen all these do good agencies were starting in Ja, i opined in this forum that the members continued to live off the earnings from things dat led to wat is going on in Ja...from the pollution of the environment to the pollution of the bizniz world etc....it is a mix that is hard to break...altruism has its limits and people in Ja might be desperate for a way out but dem still no counta hypocrisy

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if u miss it den u not in di know as u tink u know...a long time ago wen all these do good agencies were starting in Ja, i opined in this forum that the members continued to live off the earnings from things dat led to wat is going on in Ja...from the pollution of the environment to the pollution of the bizniz world etc....it is a mix that is hard to break...altruism has its limits and people in Ja might be desperate for a way out but dem still no counta hypocrisy </div></div>

I am actually not that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">in-the-know</span> and <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">never claimed to be</span>, I get my news from here and in the media, that is why I am asking <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you</span> to please supply the details. So far I cannot discern what specifically ties the members of the <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">HGRs</span> mentioned here to <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">any corrupt practices</span>.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The HRGs that are mentioned in the editorial that lead to this discussion have done what you listed above (to my knowledge at least).

But that is the point. You have yet to point me to what they have done related to the articles I listed that the UN describes as &quot;human rights&quot;. I expect a &quot;human rights&quot; organization to focus on ALL human rights abuses, not just a few.

Where are policy documents or actual action concerning access to quality education, electricity, water or housing?
</div></div>

Let’s cut this short my friend. Clearly as the article says:

<span style="font-size: 20pt">You don't understand what we do, Observer</span>

May I encourage you and others who are still lost to read the article and the letter from Mr. Sobers.

[RichD]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While NGOs do not build roads, they can draw attention to the plight of people - like an Oxfam - they can solicit donations to provide access to information - like Green Wi-Fi is doing for solar-powered internet access - install solar power equipment - like TREC.

I could go on and on about NGOs actually doing stuff other than talking about the State killing people. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will stand corrected if you can point me to the work by JFJ and others regarding the human rights listed above. </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Of the 2 NGOs</span> you quoted above have any one of these or both:
investigated a State Killing/Abuse
taken a case to the Courts on dealing with State brutality
protested a State Killing/Abuse
sat in on Justice/Police Reform task Force(s)
produced a policy document on Security and Justice

I don't do homework, but since you went down that road, care to fully expand you case for your chosen NGOs vs. Jamaicans For Justice, FAST, The Independent Jamaica Council On Human Rights, etc?
</div></div>

The HRGs that are mentioned in the editorial that lead to this discussion have done what you listed above (to my knowledge at least).

But that is the point. You have yet to point me to what they have done related to the articles I listed that the UN describes as &quot;human rights&quot;. I expect a &quot;human rights&quot; organization to focus on ALL human rights abuses, not just a few.

Where are policy documents or actual action concerning access to quality education, electricity, water or housing?
</div></div>

have you ever read JFJ's mission statement?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">have you ever read JFJ's mission statement? </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Reading</span> does not come into play when you have reached unshakeable conclusion(s) and need only to broadcast it.

[RichD]

Re: You don't understand what we do, Observer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know dat it is hard fi di people fi believe een an have faith in di groups wen dem notice dat dem husbands etc do bizniz wid di said companies dem supposedly tekking to task...wen dem see di said people in di society page at di said society parties....even di press will run like di wind if invited to hobnob...widespread changes needed fi all di tawk bout big dis an big dat...basic changes needed fuss </div></div>

I don't see how this applies to the Human Rights Organizations in Jamaica that are mentioned here, clue me in if I miss something. </div></div>

if u miss it den u not in di know as u tink u know...a long time ago wen all these do good agencies were starting in Ja, i opined in this forum that the members continued to live off the earnings from things dat led to wat is going on in Ja...from the pollution of the environment to the pollution of the bizniz world etc....it is a mix that is hard to break...altruism has its limits and people in Ja might be desperate for a way out but dem still no counta hypocrisy </div></div>

i dont buy that ...i dont think the average man on di street know anything(or care) about the ancestry of the principals in these groups.