Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

[RichD]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you ever take cognisance of the impression that you only oppose certain posters and defer to certain others?

You give me the impression that you are preparing for a future in politics.
Am I right about the latter?


i already know I am right about the former.
since the record of your posts support it.
It use to be a useful tool in politics, but the advent of the electronic age and google, it is getting to be as much of a disadvantage,that a favourable these days. </div></div>


is it certain posters or certain lines of argument? check your records

[Panajar]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Lets talk about <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">the rea</span>l and stop trying to push narrow racist/race baiting agenda using half-truths and <span style="font-size: 17pt">lies based on envy of folks who have used the opportunity afforded to them to make progress.</span> </div></div>

Even the great USA ,the the hallowed ground of capitalism recognize the need to prevent entities from getting too big,hence the creation of anti monopoly laws. lets us also not forget, the backlash against the all powerful walmart.If the USA can see the dangers involved, when a few individuals or entities have almost full control of a country's economy, why shouldn't Jamaica, a developing post slavery society not do the same? </div></div>


so how does that square with the fact that in the USA the top 10% control 70% of the nations wealth and the bottom 40% control 0.2%? </div></div> <span style="font-size: 14pt">Is the stats for Jamaica any different?
</span>

The question should be, how much of the wealth would the 10% control, if these anti monopoly laws were not enacted? i suspect it would be lot more than it is now.

[RichD]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 14pt">Is the stats for Jamaica any different?
</span>

The question should be, how much of the wealth would the 10% control, if these anti monopoly laws were not enacted? i suspect it would be lot more than it is now. </div></div> i doubt the stats for jamaica are much different ...however the point i'm questioning is the validity of the argument that anti monopoly laws int he US are designed to limit wealth/ownership.......is Warren Buffets wealth somehow limited by anti monopoly laws?

[jah_yout]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood
Published: Thursday | December 10, 2009



Seaga
FORMER PRIME minister Edward Seaga has asserted that intellectuals do not always make the best leaders.

&quot;Brains or intellect or the extent to which you can understand the intellectual aspects of the society is not necessarily a factor that works in favour of the overall country,&quot; Seaga told a Gleaner Editors' Forum Tuesday.

&quot;You can be the best intellectual or you can go to the finest universities but none of them can run a country,&quot; said Seaga, who graduated from Harvard University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in the Social Sciences.

Seaga said that having served under the leadership of former prime minister Sir Alexander Bustamante, he is convinced that the government he formed in 1962 had the best mix of leaders. He also said that there were marked similarities between Bustamante and People's National Party president, Portia Simpson Miller.

&quot;Sir Alexander Bustamante is the forerunner of the Portia Simpson model, in the sense that he had a big heart, which is essential in any democratic society, because people are more inclined to elect you on what kind of heart you have and what kind of mind you have,&quot; Seaga said.

Cultural underbelly

Of Jamaica's leaders, Bustamante is known as the least educated. Although intelligent, he had little formal education beyond the elementary level. Portia Simpson Miller holds a Bachelor of Science degree from Union Institute.

Meanwhile, Seaga said that one of the issues that many of the country's leaders have not been able to fully address is &quot;the cultural underbelly&quot; of the society.

&quot;The two-Jamaica syndrome. That is what sets the tone for the social conditions and eventually what sets the tone for economic progress or no economic progress,&quot; Seaga said.

He argued that many persons in diagnosing problems facing Jamaica fail to realise the cultural dichotomy.

&quot;The two worlds that we live in - one Afrocentric, one Eurocentric - have different standards and different value systems,&quot; Seaga said.

Seaga said that it was at the level of representational politics that it is assumed that the people who come from the folk society will understand what their people are like, and work towards helping their conditions.

Pollster Bill Johnson, in echoing Seaga's sentiments, told a <span style="font-weight: bold">story of his experience when interviewing residents in Highgate, St Mary, about whether they think Portia Simpson Miller was fit to be prime minister.

&quot;The unanimous feeling was that 'she is as smart as I am, she is smart enough to be prime minister',&quot; Johnson recalls.

&quot;It was just people looking at things from their own perspective ... there is definitely this Afrocentric and the Eurocentric dichotomy.&quot;</span>

</div></div>

very strange and disturbing analysis...
the last part very confusing to me as well...
this is really weird

[Panajar]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 14pt">Is the stats for Jamaica any different?
</span>

The question should be, how much of the wealth would the 10% control, if these anti monopoly laws were not enacted? i suspect it would be lot more than it is now. </div></div> i doubt the stats for jamaica are much different ...however the point i'm questioning is the validity of the argument that anti monopoly laws int he US are designed to limit wealth/ownership.......is Warren Buffets wealth somehow limited by anti monopoly laws? </div></div>

I am not sure of the original intent, when these laws were designed and enacted. For all practical purposes it has had some effect in limiting the power and wealth of a lot of individuals/ corporate entities ,i am sure Bill Gates will agree, that these laws have had a negative impact on his wealth / power,at the same time the average citizens of this country have benefited from the such a legislation.

[RichD]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

ok so can you point to any person or family in jamaica who you might consider monopolistic?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Even the great USA ,the the hallowed ground of capitalism recognize the need to prevent entities from getting too big,hence the creation of anti monopoly laws. lets us also not forget, the backlash against the all powerful walmart.If the USA can see the dangers involved, when a few individuals or entities have almost full control of a country's economy, why shouldn't Jamaica, a developing post slavery society not do the same? </div></div>

My friend I don't know anything about the USA and from the looks of it you know even less than I do.
You are confusing many issues here one of which it anti-trust laws/regulations (I will get forward to that in a minute). As to the backlash against WalMart are you there is a backlash against WalMart led by the USA Federal Government?
Please let's stick to Jamaica

Now on the argument about getting too big how is the State destruction of individually owned businesses a way to preserve or introduce competition? What you mean you don't like JOS so you destroy it and put what in place? You don't like Bata so you tear it down then what?

You seem to give carte blanc to the revengeful, destructive philosophy of the Comrade Governments, whatever or whomever do not bow to their philosophy must be crushed by any means necessary.

[Panajar]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok so can you point to any person or family in jamaica who you might consider monopolistic? </div></div>

How about the hotel industry,where you have TWO of the main players trying to destroy each other ,can u imagine a &quot;small man&quot; trying to make any significant venture in this industry.

BTW Don Crawford tried wonda what happen to him

[RichD]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok so can you point to any person or family in jamaica who you might consider monopolistic? </div></div>

How about the hotel industry,where you have TWO of the main players trying to destroy each other ,can u imagine a &quot;small man&quot; trying to make any significant venture in this industry.

BTW Don Crawford tried wonda what happen to him </div></div> i would hardly call those two anywhere near monopolistic...the spanish are much bigger now

sandals is a hotel operator..how many of their buildings do they actually own?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i would hardly call those two anywhere near monopolistic...the spanish are much bigger now</div></div>

It shows you the joke of the Comrade Governments strategy. They talk about 21 Familes/Monopoly/Brown Man/Rich/Imperialist/Capitalists as if it all rolled up in one neat package and what do they do?
They invite the and sanction the very same thing they claim to be fighting.

from what I see no one even remember that speech the PJoke Patterson gave at the PNP Conference when he praised the the Spanish Hotel Invasion he said it was the biggest invasion of the Caribbean since the Spanish Armada.
In the Comrade philosophy it was better to invite the White Man to tek ova the thing if the local players (who had been on their sides for years) did not want to play ball anymore.

This reason why Butch and the Observer came out so stridently against the Comrades and put their support behind the JLP. As you can see now they are regretting it a little because the JLP do not yet overstand how to be as corrupted and destructive as the Comrade Governments were and milk is not flowing as it should.

[Panajar]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to give carte blanc to the revengeful, destructive philosophy of the Comrade Governments, whatever or whomever do not bow to their philosophy must be crushed by any means necessary. </div></div>

what would say if a tell you that one of the most EFFECTIVE president of the USA had some of the same ideas that Micheal Manley had..yes his name was <span style="font-size: 17pt">Teddy Roosevelt</span> HERE WHAT HE HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE..<span style="font-size: 20pt">&quot;MALEFACTORS OF GREAT WEALTH.&quot;</span> Too

<span style="font-size: 14pt">&quot;much cannot be said against the men of wealth who

sacrifice everything to getting wealth. There is not in

the world a more ignoble character than the mere

money-getting American, insensible to every duty,

regardless of every principle, bent only on amassing a

fortune, and putting his fortune only to the basest

uses —whether these uses be to speculate in stocks and

wreck railroads himself, or to allow his son to lead a

life of foolish and expensive idleness and gross

debauchery, or to purchase some scoundrel of high

social position, foreign or native, for his daughter. <span style="color: #CC0000">Such

a man is only the more dangerous if he occasionally

does some deed like founding a college or endowing a

church, which makes those good people who are also

foolish forget his real iniquity.</span> These men are equally

careless of the working men, whom they oppress, and

of the State, whose existence they imperil. There are

not very many of them, but there is a very great number

of men who approach more or less closely to the type,

and, just in so far as they do so approach, they are

curses to the country. (Forum, February 1895.) Mem.

Ed. XV, 10; Nat. Ed. XIII, 9.

&quot;MALEFACTORS OF GREAT WEALTH&quot; AND

THE PANIC OF 1907. It may well be that the

determination of the government (in which, gentlemen,

it will not waver) to punish certain malefactors of great

wealth, has been responsible for something of the

trouble; at least to the extent of having caused these

men to combine to bring about as much financial stress

as possible, in order to discredit the policy of the

government and thereby secure a reversal of that policy&quot;,


</span><span style="font-weight: bold">Theodore Roosevelt</span>




The following excerpt for Roosevelt speech could describe Jamaica in the early 70s late 80s .When the JLP backed by these &quot;malefactors of great wealth&quot; SET ABOUT TO UNDERMINE THE DULY ELECTED PNP GOVERNMENT.

&quot;MALEFACTORS OF GREAT WEALTH&quot; AND

&quot;<span style="font-size: 14pt">THE PANIC OF 1907. It may well be that the

determination of the government (in which, gentlemen,

it will not waver) to punish certain malefactors of great

wealth, has been responsible for something of the

trouble; at least to the extent of having caused these

men to combine to bring about as much financial stress

as possible, in order to discredit the policy of the

government and thereby secure a reversal of that policy&quot;,
</span>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what would say if a tell you that one of the most EFFECTIVE president of the USA had some of the same ideas that Micheal Manley had..yes his name was <span style="font-size: 17pt">Teddy Roosevelt</span></div></div>

I would say BS. Teddy Roosevelt did not come to power promising to destroy the 21 mythical families, especially since his family was no slouch in the wealth department.
Secondly Teddy Roosevelt did not say that the USA had no place for millionaires and anyone who wanted to be a millionaire should catch a flight out of Jamaica.
Thirdly Roosevelt did not arm USA citizens against each other, willy nilly lock up his political enemies or use terror to suppress dissent in the USA (not that we know of anyway).
Fourth Roosevelt did not destroy the USA Economy by engaging in idiotic rhetoric in favour of pursuing planned development.

My friend stick to facts about Jamaica and stop writing nonsense.

[britisha]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

A mek oono a duh mi soh...haff mi ere ROTFPUMWL...mine oono mek mi bellie buss..

[andronian2]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

IMO, the inequities of Jamaican society have their origins in the plantation history.
There aren't many poor whites in Jamaica but the ones that are (such as some of the older residents of German town) were part of the agricultural underclass.
That people of African descent, the majority of which descended from slaves, should escape the consequences of engineered social disadvantage is naive at best.
The educated, professional ones who, or whose parents, made sacrifices to qualify themselves find their efforts stymied by a stagnant economy and high taxation.
So I wouldn't take issue with the obvious conclusion that there are 'two Jamaicas' regardless of my personal opinion of Edward Seaga.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Two-Jamaica syndrome needs to be understood:Seaga

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: andronian2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMO, the inequities of Jamaican society have their origins in the plantation history.
There aren't many poor whites in Jamaica but the ones that are (such as some of the older residents of German town) were part of the agricultural underclass.
That people of African descent, the majority of which descended from slaves, should escape the consequences of engineered social disadvantage is naive at best.
The educated, professional ones who, or whose parents, made sacrifices to qualify themselves find their efforts stymied by a stagnant economy and high taxation.</div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Yaaaaaawn!</span>
Blacks have excelled and have every opportunity to excel. There have been many pogroms against white, Indians and Chiney peple and folks still taaking faat about inequities and blaming them and the Plantation for it.

I wonder if it it the <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Plantation</span> that is causing corrupt black politicians or blacks who kill, rape and main other blacks in the slums and poor neighbourhoods