Manley

[Panajar]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 70s under Manley and the state trading corporation when basic food was short and sometimes absent from the shelves, one had to buy what was called a marriage.
For instance you could not buy flour unless you bought a tin or two of mackerel with it.
Condensed milk was married to Milo and so on.
One was forced to buy what was not wanted in order to get what was really needed.
That was food security for you under Manley`s failed state of affairs. </div></div>

You are either ignorant of the facts or you are been disingenuous, if you blame Manley for the the food shortage in the seventies.How did food &quot;magically&quot; appear on the shelves the day after Seaga won the election in 1980, did one of seaga's &quot;cappo&quot; conjure this food up ? The PSOJ ,JLP and the CIA are the ones responsible for the attempted starvation of poor black people.

[RichD]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 70s under Manley and the state trading corporation when basic food was short and sometimes absent from the shelves, one had to buy what was called a marriage.
For instance you could not buy flour unless you bought a tin or two of mackerel with it.
Condensed milk was married to Milo and so on.
One was forced to buy what was not wanted in order to get what was really needed.
That was food security for you under Manley`s failed state of affairs. </div></div>

You are either ignorant of the facts or you are been disingenuous, if you blame Manley for the the food shortage in the seventies.How did food &quot;magically&quot; appear on the shelves the day after Seaga won the election in 1980, did one of seaga's &quot;cappo&quot; conjure this food up ? The PSOJ ,JLP and the CIA are the ones responsible for the attempted starvation of poor black people. </div></div>

i dont recall this magic appearance of food...to my recollection various good started reappearing over a long period as certain import and exchange restrictions were eased.

[Wahalla]

Re: Manley

it took two week for all the shops to have an adequate supply of flour and cornmeal...

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 70s under Manley and the state trading corporation when basic food was short and sometimes absent from the shelves, one had to buy what was called a marriage.
For instance you could not buy flour unless you bought a tin or two of mackerel with it.
Condensed milk was married to Milo and so on.
One was forced to buy what was not wanted in order to get what was really needed.
That was food security for you under Manley`s failed state of affairs. </div></div>

TRUE...but what you must realize is that was the result of scarcity, brought on by primarily by Western powers taking punitive actions in conjunction with local elites hoarding of goods. Using food as a weapon is a technique used by the CIA to make popular governments unpopular and thereby achieve &quot;regime change&quot;
If you missed this link before..

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5391/is_200705/ai_n21288057/

[johnnycakes]

Re: Manley

The problem was and is a lack of democracy.
It is the rule by the wealthy and powerful for their benefit and to the detriment of the working people and the poor who are created by the most totalitarian form there is: capitalism

It's NOT just Manley, It's not Seaga, P.J., Busta,, any of them. It's all of them
It's the combined totalitarianism of capitalism and a non democratic form of electoral politics where the parties choose the candidates for whom we will vote and where all the candidates are chosen because they will keep things the same.

[Q3210]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 70s under Manley and the state trading corporation when basic food was short and sometimes absent from the shelves, one had to buy what was called a marriage.
For instance you could not buy flour unless you bought a tin or two of mackerel with it.
Condensed milk was married to Milo and so on.
One was forced to buy what was not wanted in order to get what was really needed.
That was food security for you under Manley`s failed state of affairs. </div></div>

You are either ignorant of the facts or you are been disingenuous, if you blame Manley for the the food shortage in the seventies.How did food &quot;magically&quot; appear on the shelves the day after Seaga won the election in 1980, did one of seaga's &quot;cappo&quot; conjure this food up ? The PSOJ ,JLP and the CIA are the ones responsible for the attempted starvation of poor black people. </div></div>

Yada yada, you remind me of the chatter back then, when some like you were hallucinating over things like &quot;Family Planning, The Way To Kill Off Black People.&quot;
As RichD attested, Corn Flakes didn`t just magically re-appear after the JLP won in 1980.
However, you cannot deny the extreme hardship that was caused by way of trying to get food in the kitchen back in the social spiraling in the 70s under your god, Michael Manley.
You can blame everyone else and deny the truth of what caused the state of emergency, the Orange street fire where babies were taken from the arms of their mothers and thrown in the cinders by none other than PNP hoods.
The CIA and the PSOJ and JLP I bet you`ll blame for the setting up of ambush and murder of those men from Southside at what is called the Green Bay Killings.
There were many more atrocities committed by your mentors that no doubt you`ll lay blame to others and continue in your state of denial.
No wonder we cant be better if we cannot admit to truth and yield to honesty.

[Wahalla]

Re: Manley

and course as I am a liar::::: Things did not happen you all need to have a website as is pure lie Wahalla tell. .. I forgot to mention that I had got some day wuk at Minimum wage $40 dollars a week I recall in that morrass planting rice ! This involved draining some of the morass. It did predate manley..My father who too had laboured on other rice projects in the 30'sas a boy, then he saw the attempts in the 50's told me at the time it would not work, his father my grandfatehr told of failure, he told me of attempts in his granfatehrs time..(This is the historical attempt at the 1900 to start market gardens in the 1900 with scotish labourers). When he and other locals told their experience to those poltical hacks.. sorry those highly experienced appointees that never ever had lived the life.. you know what they were told.. where were their records ? Theuir expertise was not valid compared the same superiority of idealism !!! The 1970's equavalent of the show me the website!

For those who love poor people so much seem for ever to refrain when poor people tell their experience::::<span style="color: #FF0000">It is all anecdotal. Where are the statistics to back it up. they are not mentioned in the offical documents... </span>
still I am peasant from peasants who long learnt the validity of traditions.. (I must mentioned to my sons so 5 generations of Wahalla will attempt to grow rice in the great morras!!!..

I am ambivalent about Chinese involvmetn...

I recall when he decided to expand it. I recall that there was alot more attempted but the initial clearance was over extended.. fires got away, allegators got toasted. .and all thsi stuff was not reported.. It was not known as that time no blogs twitter intenet...

Chinese team to visit BRUMDEC

BY MARK CUMMINGS Observer West senior reporter [email protected]

Thursday, July 08, 2010






BLACK RIVER, St Elizabeth — A technical team from China is expected in the island later this month to get a first hand look at the former rice growing area of BRUMDEC in St Elizabeth.

According to Agriculture Minister Dr Christopher Tufton, the team which will consist of experts from a major Chinese rice growing company, is interesting in cultivating the staple on roughly 3,000 acres of lands at BRUMDEC.

The visit, he noted, resulted from his recent trip to China where he had discussions with the owners of the company and the Chinese government, regarding the revatalisation of Jamaica's rice industry.

&quot;The visit forms part of the government's plan to replace in the medium term, at least 25 per cent of Jamaica's rice import, with a potential foreign exchange savings of US$15million,&quot; Dr Tufton told the Observer West.

Jamaica spends roughly US$60 million annually to import approximately 100,000 tonnes of finished rice for local consumption.

<span style="color: #CC0000">In the 1970's approximately 5,000 acres of rice were under cultivation at BRUMDEC.

But by the project was abandoned by the turn of the 1980's</span>

[johnnycakes]

Re: Manley


I'll just repeat this as long as people are going to keep addressing the symptoms of Jamaica's societal ills and not the source of those problems.

IT'S NOT MANLEY.
IT'S NOT SEAGA.
IT'S NOT ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR JAMAICA AS IT IS TODAY.
(pardon me for &quot;yelling&quot; but it's time for a little reality here)



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem was and is a lack of democracy.
It is the rule by the wealthy and powerful for their benefit and to the detriment of the working people and the poor who are created by the most totalitarian form there is: capitalism

It's NOT just Manley, It's not Seaga, P.J., Busta,, any of them. It's all of them
It's the combined totalitarianism of capitalism and a non democratic form of electoral politics where the parties choose the candidates for whom we will vote and where all the candidates are chosen because they will keep things the same.

</div></div>

[johnnycakes]

Re: Manley

Very few countries have undergone the horrors of South Africa in getting the apartheid white ruled government changed, in getting the vote and political &quot;freedom&quot; to all the peoples of South Africa.

Jamaica did not have such a rough time.
It too achieved the vote and political independence.


Read, if you will, these first couple of paragraphs taken from the article linked at the end of this post.


Living in District 9
By James McEnteer
PDF Version
Printer Friendly Version
July 2010
Change Text Size a- | A+

A stranger in Johannesburg immediately notices serious security measures everywhere. High walls are topped with electrified razor wire. Dogs are visible or audible behind the walls. Signs warn of alarms that will bring “rapid armed response” from one of many thriving security companies. The presence of so much defensive and offensive hardware prompts a question: what’s going on here? South Africans have pondered that question since the late 1940s when apartheid became the country’s official policy. Much has changed since the 1940s and much remains the same. Apartheid was abandoned in 1990, after moral censure and economic pressure from the rest of the world. The country’s first free elections in 1994 brought a black majority government run by the African National Congress, which continues its monopoly on political power. Under ANC leadership, a new black elite emerged, blurring the traditional South African equation of race with class. Recent demographic data from the Human Sciences Research Council shows that “the proportion of people living in poverty in South Africa has not changed significantly” in the post-apartheid years. In fact, “those households living in poverty have sunk deeper into poverty and the gap between rich and poor has widened.”

&quot;Many outsiders think of South Africa in terms of Nelson Mandela’s triumphs. Mandela’s “long walk to freedom” is surely one of the 20th century’s most inspiring stories. But contemporary reality is not Invictus or happily ever after. R.W. Johnson’s South Africa’s Brave New World provides a disheartening account of how the ANC dumped their socialist agenda in order to appease the IMF and attract international investment. Once in power they succumbed to corruption and cronyism, playing to the aspirations of middle class blacks and their own political elite, ignoring the hopes and desperation of the poor majority who voted for them...............&quot;






In reading this, it is easy to see that in South Africa as well as in Jamaica, things do not change for the better just because the people have the vote.

Neither country changed their economic structure and it is the economic systems of the two countries and NOT the electoral systems that are the problem in both countries.

Here's the rest of the article:

http://www.zcommunications.org/living-in-district-9-by-james-mcenteer

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yada yada, you remind me of the chatter back then, when some like you were hallucinating over things like &quot;Family Planning, The Way To Kill Off Black People.&quot;
As RichD attested, Corn Flakes didn`t just magically re-appear after the JLP won in 1980.
However, you cannot deny the extreme hardship that was caused by way of trying to get food in the kitchen back in the social spiraling in the 70s under your god, Michael Manley.
You can blame everyone else and deny the truth of what caused the state of emergency, <span style="font-weight: bold">the Orange street fire where babies were taken from the arms of their mothers and thrown in the cinders by none other than PNP hoods.</span>
The CIA and the PSOJ and JLP I bet you`ll blame for the setting up of ambush and murder of those men from Southside at what is called the Green Bay Killings.
There were many more atrocities committed by your mentors that no doubt you`ll lay blame to others and continue in your state of denial.
No wonder we cant be better if we cannot admit to truth and yield to honesty. </div></div>

Orange st or Slipe rd?
The CIA has been proven to be responsibly for these acts, here are former CIA officers talking a about exactly that its start 3:30 minutes in and really picks up 4:30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv3_IWEpaqI

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

[quote]and course as I am a liar::::: Things did not happen you all need to have a website as is pure lie Wahalla tell. .. I forgot to mention that I had got some day wuk at Minimum wage $40 dollars a week I recall in that morrass planting rice ! This involved draining some of the morass. It did predate manley..My father who too had laboured on other rice projects in the 30'sas a boy, then he saw the attempts in the 50's told me at the time it would not work, his father my grandfatehr told of failure, he told me of attempts in his granfatehrs time..(This is the historical attempt at the 1900 to start market gardens in the 1900 with scotish labourers). When he and other locals told their experience to those poltical hacks.. sorry those highly experienced appointees that never ever had lived the life.. you know what they were told.. where were their records ? Theuir expertise was not valid compared the same superiority of idealism !!! The 1970's equavalent of the show me the website!

For those who love poor people so much seem for ever to refrain when poor people tell their experience::::<span style="color: #FF0000">It is all anecdotal. Where are the statistics to back it up. they are not mentioned in the offical documents... </span>
still I am peasant from peasants who long learnt the validity of traditions.. (I must mentioned to my sons so 5 generations of Wahalla will attempt to grow rice in the great morras!!!..

I am ambivalent about Chinese involvmetn...

I recall when he decided to expand it. I recall that there was alot more attempted but the initial clearance was over extended.. fires got away, allegators got toasted. .and all thsi stuff was not reported.. It was not known as that time no blogs twitter intenet...

Chinese team to visit BRUMDEC </div></div>

I am neither deny your experience or calling you a liar, anecdotes are exactly that - personal and biographical. Was their scarcity under Manly - SURE.
According to your own story This misery has been going on for several generations ante-dating Manley's Government If so then the CAUSE could not have anything to do with Manley?
In short I am <span style="font-weight: bold">not disputing your experience</span>, just where you place CAUSE.

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll just repeat this as long as people are going to keep addressing the symptoms of Jamaica's societal ills and not the source of those problems.

IT'S NOT MANLEY.
IT'S NOT SEAGA.
IT'S NOT ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR JAMAICA AS IT IS TODAY.
(pardon me for &quot;yelling&quot; but it's time for a little reality here)



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem was and is a lack of democracy.
It is the rule by the wealthy and powerful for their benefit and to the detriment of the working people and the poor who are created by the most totalitarian form there is: capitalism

It's NOT just Manley, It's not Seaga, P.J., Busta,, any of them. It's all of them
It's the combined totalitarianism of capitalism and a non democratic form of electoral politics where the parties choose the candidates for whom we will vote and where all the candidates are chosen because they will keep things the same.

</div></div>


</div></div>

TRUE...but of the lot Manley has made some great strides towards truely giving all Jamaican an equal access Jamaica's bounty

[Q3210]

Re: Manley

Re-distribution of wealth without backing up creation of wealth and stifling and shutting down of the production and manufacturing sector is a road to doom as was made real by the Manley regime and those thereafter, namely PJ (IShall Return) Patterson.

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Re-distribution of wealth without backing up creation of wealth and stifling and shutting down of the production and manufacturing sector is a road to doom as was made real by the Manley regime and those thereafter, namely PJ (IShall Return) Patterson. </div></div>
CIA propaganda still got a hold on you!!
Manley call for local development and international redistribution of wealth.
Local development IS wealth Creation
International redistribution of wealth is about trade agreements between former colonies(South) and their former colonial masters(North or West).

[johnnycakes]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Re-distribution of wealth without backing up creation of wealth and stifling and shutting down of the production and manufacturing sector is a road to doom as was made real by the Manley regime and those thereafter, namely PJ (IShall Return) Patterson. </div></div>


The wealth that Manley sought to redistribute was much the same before or after his election. He was seeking to redistribute the wealth that WAS there at the time.
The time was not right for Manley for that sort of thing.
The Cold War was in full bloom. Manley just barely predated the Grenada invasion and the wars in Central America were well underway all through his time in office.
The United Snakes still considered the Monroe Doctrine sacrosanct.
Manley was not going to be permitted any movements toward socialism or economic justice and U.S. intervention was greatly enhanced by the ease with which its tactics worked on a Jamaican populace that already believed the anti-socialist rhetoric, lies, misinformation and above all, rumors.

That said, SO WHAT?

It's history. It's old news. It is part of the history that shows that Manley's populism alone was not enough to lead the people through serious change and that Jamaicans, while unhappy with the way things are, still believe that the miserable economic straits and social breakdown that is Jamaica today is the way things have to be.

They do not want the alternative, democratic socialism, not because they know and understand what either democracy or socialism is but because of what they have been told by those who lead them, misinform them.

An informed electorate is essential to a functioning democracy.

Jamaica does not have an informed electorate.
It has a disinformed electorate.
Disinformed is defined as deliberate misinformation which is a long phrase that means &quot;lies&quot;.

Jamaica has an electorate that believes lies.


So it does not matter whether Manley ate babies or Seaga diddled little boys.
None of Jamaica's leaders had or will have the power to effect serious change.

The people don't want the change they've been led to believe they don't want.

It's sort of Orwellian democracy.