Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[Wahalla]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
Johnycakes:

I hope that poor, disease stricken 'third world' countries ignore your foolish advice to implement pure socialism in their countries. They will surely continue being poor. I am prepared to see a well-reasoned argument showing how a an impoverished country lacking in natural resources (no oil, bauxite, gold, diamonds, etc) can lift itself to prosperity using a pure socialist model. As for Cuba, where you live [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], the people may be educated and healthy (achievements I admire under socialism; I've said this many times before), but are they able to fully realize their potentials? I think not.

For you, providing greater access to education and securing decent health care for all citizens, and at the same time, facilitating a robust private sector as the engine of growth for the economy, thereby providing employment and revenues for the state, are competing notions. For me, these are compatible. Combining the best of both systems is the ONLY way for 'third world' countries to improve their conditions, not to cling exclusively to socialism or capitalism. The fact that one system may be flawed does not make the other system perfect. This has always been my position. With your 'straw man' arguments and oversimplications, you distort my position to one that favors crude capitalism without social programs designed to provide a equitable society. And yes, a equitable society is achievable under the system above. I suspect that you confuse the word equitable with equal. The state MUST ensure equality of all citiens before the law, and equal opportunities for ALL, but anything beyond that is false egalitarianism. If your arguments were strong enough, you wouldn't have to distort my positions to make them easier to attack. I find your tactics to be disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its called Malaysia, Singapore, China....

[niceniss]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

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so yu feel yu body adjusting to the temperate climate of North weh yu deh now? Yu hair getting less kinky and yu skin more lightly, evolving to enviroment in time.

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*kissteet* [img]/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] evolution takes generations and thousands of years.

What, yuh noh like the allusion that africans are the original peoples?

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gosh! why you ask a question like that?

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me could ask you the same thing! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

a african textured hair me got! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] fiesty bout "kinky" [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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sorry to have offended you using the `wrong` word. didnt mean to be facety at all, you`re my friend.
Apologies to you Donnica.

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LOL [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Wahalla]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

its true big buisness exploits poor black people... Even in Cuba...

businesses 'cheat clients'
By Stephen Gibbs
BBC News, Havana



More than 22,000 Havana's businesses have been checked
More than half of all the state-run enterprises inspected in Cuba's capital Havana have cheated their customers, a Cuban communist newspaper has reported.

More than 11,500 businesses were selling their products at higher prices than advertised, or delivering lesser quantities, the Juventud Rebelde said.

The report's tone is unusually frank. The state media tends to be dominated by congratulatory stories about Cuba.

Last week, acting President Raul Castro said corruption was a serious problem.

'Rampant corruption'

The two-page article in the communist youth newspaper reports what for most people living in Havana will be a familiar story.

Inspectors went to thousands of state-run enterprises and consistently found customers being short-changed.



The offences included beer mugs being only partially filled, taxi rides being charged at almost five times the going rate, government price lists being hidden, even shoe repairers charging vastly inflated rates.

But in recent months the government has expressed its determination to deal with what it concedes is rampant low-level corruption across the economy.

Last November, President Fidel Castro - who is now recuperating from intestinal surgery - warned that corruption had the power to destroy the revolution itself.

He condemned the fact that in some areas half of all the fuel in state petrol stations was being stolen.

'Legitimate supplement'

His brother Raul last week criticised workers' leaders for failing to do enough to stop stealing from state enterprises.

Many Cubans tend to shrug their shoulders when asked about corruption.

With the state salary here at about $15 (£8) a month, and many essentials such as cooking oil and soap only available in hard currency, plenty regard skimming off what they can from their jobs as a necessary - even legitimate - supplement to their incomes.

They are less happy when they find that, as consumers, they are also being ripped

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
its true big buisness exploits poor black people... Even in Cuba...

businesses 'cheat clients'
By Stephen Gibbs
BBC News, Havana



More than 22,000 Havana's businesses have been checked
More than half of all the state-run enterprises inspected in Cuba's capital Havana have cheated their customers, a Cuban communist newspaper has reported.

More than 11,500 businesses were selling their products at higher prices than advertised, or delivering lesser quantities, the Juventud Rebelde said.

The report's tone is unusually frank. The state media tends to be dominated by congratulatory stories about Cuba.

Last week, acting President Raul Castro said corruption was a serious problem.

'Rampant corruption'

The two-page article in the communist youth newspaper reports what for most people living in Havana will be a familiar story.

Inspectors went to thousands of state-run enterprises and consistently found customers being short-changed.



The offences included beer mugs being only partially filled, taxi rides being charged at almost five times the going rate, government price lists being hidden, even shoe repairers charging vastly inflated rates.

But in recent months the government has expressed its determination to deal with what it concedes is rampant low-level corruption across the economy.

Last November, President Fidel Castro - who is now recuperating from intestinal surgery - warned that corruption had the power to destroy the revolution itself.

He condemned the fact that in some areas half of all the fuel in state petrol stations was being stolen.

'Legitimate supplement'

His brother Raul last week criticised workers' leaders for failing to do enough to stop stealing from state enterprises.

Many Cubans tend to shrug their shoulders when asked about corruption.

With the state salary here at about $15 (£8) a month, and many essentials such as cooking oil and soap only available in hard currency, plenty regard skimming off what they can from their jobs as a necessary - even legitimate - supplement to their incomes.

They are less happy when they find that, as consumers, they are also being ripped

[/ QUOTE ]

Lie dem a tell. This is a capitalist fabrication and it is a negative attack on that socialist paradise. They are trying to discredit the revolution. Fiya bun fi di bbc. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70392-silly.gif[/img] Johnycakes, weh yuh deh, man?

[Wahalla]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Pure lie my friend afta all Cuban people are completely happy with their education and health care.. And there is neva any one who is unhappy with popular power.. And there was never any need for an organised opposition to point out the flaws and all press is state controlled but there is no conflict of intrest to critise...after all the editors are goverment appointed...

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Castro black?

[Wahalla]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

im claim im granmother was...But he is a gallego...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Walhalla and Dyoll,
In my world there is nothing so important as human life.
In the world so far, no capitalist country, no country with a hybrid economy: mixed capitalism with strong social programs has eliminated poverty and the social and mental problems that go with that poverty. This is true in all but the most socially advanced countries like Sweden.
Your examples of Malaysia, Singapore and especially China totally ignore the poverty levels there which are in excess of 25%. China reverting to cutthroat capitalism of the type in existence prior to Mao's Revolution has produced hundreds of millionaires, maybe thousands but along with those newly rich have come millions of people dumped back into grinding poverty.

As long as capitalism exists, there will exist the corrupting effects which so readily afflict humanity.
The raison d'etre of capitalism after all IS to make a lot of money and that money goes to those at the top and to those who have the money in the first place to invest in those ventures.

Capitalism plays to the basest instincts in man: selfishness and blindness to the suffering it causes and the evidence of this fact is rife especially in poor countries where there is less to go around.

Cuba is by no means a perfect state. It is a poor country and one that has had war waged upon it by the richest and most powerful state in the world.

The reason for that war is, of course to make Cuba a basket case. The fact that Cuba has not only not failed but has, in many respects, outshone the First World in the human condition is testament to the workability of a socialist economy.

Mixing capitalism into Cuba's near pure socialism is adding rotten apples to the barrel of good ones and the effect would be to bring down the noble experiment into providing for all in a poor country. The corrupting influence that the enrichment of a handful while others live far more simply is just that, corrupting.

Your claims that socialism would make everyone poor is nonsensical on it's face.
In any given country there are just so many resources, just so much wealth.
Were that wealth, those resources to be shared in an egalitarian form, the poorest of the poor , those who would otherwise starve or die of other forms of economic deprivation benefit at the expense of those at the top who wallow in obscene wealth.

There is no need and no moral excuse for those 5% or so to sit on piles of accumulate wealth which they certainly don't need to live.
As the bumper sticker says: "Live simply so that others may simply live."

As the Tao Te Ching says: "A wise man knows that enough is enough."

Capitalism runs counter to both those thoughts and living under that system produces the negative social effects we see all around us.

My wife made a point today by saying that whenever she hears of the horrendous schoolhouse massacres and the pedophilia rampant in the news of the USA today she is reminded of Elian Gonzalez's father saying that he wanted his son to live in Cuba because it's a safer place. And Cuba is a sfer place because the people are far more stable than those living in the stressful conditions in the US with it's 25% poverty and the crime, mental illnesses and violence it engenders.
All these negative effects can be laid at the feet of an uncaring and brutal economic system where it's dog-eat-dog and no one has the time or social attitudes to help those less fortunate, the poor.
We climb over the backs of the poor, the helpless to get what we are trained to want.
This is no way to live. It is a way to die.

Capitalism does not work in the form practiced in the USA and in the form which is enforced on the Third World.
No form of capitalism will feed, clothe, educate , medicate, house and provide a secure future and the peace of mind that goes with it for all the people s of a given country.
Capitalism mixed in with a socialist economy soon creates the inequalities that bring about the social conditions: notably the lack of provision for the weak and helpless among us.

Capitalism has greed at it's base and that inordinate love of money is truly the root of evil in our world.
If you wish to promote that sort of economy which yearly causes the deaths of tens of millions of people and consigns billions to lives of misery ad infinitum, it's your right.

I'm sure like all the rich people in the world you've internalized all the rationalizations and feel quite comfortable selling death via capitalism.

Rationalizing millions of dead babies, billions living in misery just isn't in my moral makeup.

"In the world today millions of children sleep in the streets.
Not ONE is Cuban."

Not one.

You can talk about the things that Cubans may lack but at least they don't allow their children to starve and are doing what they can within their means to provide a decent life for all.

It isn't done anywhere else on the planet and it never can happen under capitalism

Never.

As to capitalism bringing about a better life for those in the Third World, read this:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=13&ItemID=11114

[Wahalla]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
Walhalla and Dyoll,
In my world there is nothing so important as human life.
In the world so far, no capitalist country, no country with a hybrid economy: mixed capitalism with strong social programs has eliminated poverty and the social and mental problems that go with that poverty. This is true in all but the most socially advanced countries like Sweden.
Your examples of Malaysia, Singapore and especially China totally ignore the poverty levels there which are in excess of 25%. China reverting to cutthroat capitalism of the type in existence prior to Mao's Revolution has produced hundreds of millionaires, maybe thousands but along with those newly rich have come millions of people dumped back into grinding poverty.

As long as capitalism exists, there will exist the corrupting effects which so readily afflict humanity.
The raison d'etre of capitalism after all IS to make a lot of money and that money goes to those at the top and to those who have the money in the first place to invest in those ventures.

Capitalism plays to the basest instincts in man: selfishness and blindness to the suffering it causes and the evidence of this fact is rife especially in poor countries where there is less to go around.

Cuba is by no means a perfect state. It is a poor country and one that has had war waged upon it by the richest and most powerful state in the world.

The reason for that war is, of course to make Cuba a basket case. The fact that Cuba has not only not failed but has, in many respects, outshone the First World in the human condition is testament to the workability of a socialist economy.

Mixing capitalism into Cuba's near pure socialism is adding rotten apples to the barrel of good ones and the effect would be to bring down the noble experiment into providing for all in a poor country. The corrupting influence that the enrichment of a handful while others live far more simply is just that, corrupting.

Your claims that socialism would make everyone poor is nonsensical on it's face.
In any given country there are just so many resources, just so much wealth.
Were that wealth, those resources to be shared in an egalitarian form, the poorest of the poor , those who would otherwise starve or die of other forms of economic deprivation benefit at the expense of those at the top who wallow in obscene wealth.

There is no need and no moral excuse for those 5% or so to sit on piles of accumulate wealth which they certainly don't need to live.
As the bumper sticker says: "Live simply so that others may simply live."

As the Tao Te Ching says: "A wise man knows that enough is enough."

Capitalism runs counter to both those thoughts and living under that system produces the negative social effects we see all around us.

My wife made a point today by saying that whenever she hears of the horrendous schoolhouse massacres and the pedophilia rampant in the news of the USA today she is reminded of Elian Gonzalez's father saying that he wanted his son to live in Cuba because it's a safer place. And Cuba is a sfer place because the people are far more stable than those living in the stressful conditions in the US with it's 25% poverty and the crime, mental illnesses and violence it engenders.
All these negative effects can be laid at the feet of an uncaring and brutal economic system where it's dog-eat-dog and no one has the time or social attitudes to help those less fortunate, the poor.
We climb over the backs of the poor, the helpless to get what we are trained to want.
This is no way to live. It is a way to die.

Capitalism does not work in the form practiced in the USA and in the form which is enforced on the Third World.
No form of capitalism will feed, clothe, educate , medicate, house and provide a secure future and the peace of mind that goes with it for all the people s of a given country.
Capitalism mixed in with a socialist economy soon creates the inequalities that bring about the social conditions: notably the lack of provision for the weak and helpless among us.

Capitalism has greed at it's base and that inordinate love of money is truly the root of evil in our world.
If you wish to promote that sort of economy which yearly causes the deaths of tens of millions of people and consigns billions to lives of misery ad infinitum, it's your right.

I'm sure like all the rich people in the world you've internalized all the rationalizations and feel quite comfortable selling death via capitalism.

Rationalizing millions of dead babies, billions living in misery just isn't in my moral makeup.

"In the world today millions of children sleep in the streets.
Not ONE is Cuban."

Not one.

You can talk about the things that Cubans may lack but at least they don't allow their children to starve and are doing what they can within their means to provide a decent life for all.

It isn't done anywhere else on the planet and it never can happen under capitalism

Never.

As to capitalism bringing about a better life for those in the Third World, read this:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=13&ItemID=11114

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I not the one whom you claim lacks "interlectual capacity" to discuss Cuba..So please....I cant disccuss this with a gaint of interlectual gaint who denies for years the failure of the prevention of corruption in Cuba by simply claming people power so only one party keeps power.... No need for an organised effective opposition... So is pure lie the BBC writes... But then I dont have the inteleculac capacity do I ????

So the Malaysian goverment did not interfere with the forgien exhange markets in 98.. China does not own most of the commanding heights... And China does not restrict competion.. And wonderful Cuba did not have mom and pop resturants develop in the 1990's supplied by small private farmers.. Only have the goverment in Cuba impose taxes to dreive them out of buisness and prevent the formation of any more ..And the private Robots was not driven out by Cuban Taxes.. I lack the interlectual capacity dont I...

Singapore does nto own 75 % of their major multinationals...

And Malaysia Singapore and China dont have social programs to aliviate poverty, that has been lifting people out of poverty....the $1.00 a day as level of poverty???? $ 15 dollars a month is not poverty only in Cuba Right??????... But there is no poverty in Cuba has ??? And Im the intelectual midgit ????

Malaysia has 7% poverty and falling. Singapore is less... Poverty is falling in China and will condies to...How much does Cuba have at $15 dollars per day..oops povvety ended with socialism... And Im called stupid no I lack interlectual capacity to discuss cuba dont I ???? Rationilise the truth..

Ad Capitalist China does not fix the exchange rate??? That is so like capitalism isnat it ???? Singapore and Malaysia dont own the companding heights of their economy ??? oops Petronas is privately owned...

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Top politician escapes £400m Kenya corruption charges
Xan Rice in Nairobi
Wednesday August 2, 2006
The Guardian

A £2.5m inquiry into Kenya's biggest corruption scandal to date has received a major setback after a court ruled that the country's former vice-president could not be charged.

George Saitoti, who resigned his cabinet post in February over the graft claims, was the most high-profile defendant accused in the "Goldenberg swindle", which cost the Kenyan taxpayer £400m.

The constitutional court's decision has been widely interpreted as further evidence of the apparent impunity of the country's top politicians. More
__________________________________________________ ____________

Kenya rejects aid of 'dog food'
Kenya's government is outraged by an offer of food aid from a New Zealand dog food manufacturer to help the 4m people hit by drought.

But Christine Drummond told the BBC she could assure Kenyans that the nutritional supplement she was offering was "definitely not dog food".

It is "a high-powered food full of nutrients. It tastes yummy," she said.

The minister co-ordinating the relief effort, John Munyes, told the AFP news agency the offer was in "bad taste".

Kenyan government spokesman Alfred Mutua told Kenya's Daily Nation newspaper that any food aid must be up to standard.

"Kenyan children are not in such shortage of food to resort to eating dog food," he said.

'Loving country'

The founder of the company which makes Mighty Mix dog biscuits says her freeze-dried Raw Dry Nourish is "like having a big meal in a teaspoon".

"I have been formulating it for special people like in Kenya, the people who need it the most to keep strong," Ms Drummond told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme.

She was originally quoted in the Daily Nation as saying she wanted to send dog biscuits but when she heard how many people needed food aid, decided to send the powder.

But she said that this was a misunderstanding and her only desire had been to help malnourished children in Kenya.

She said she was also sending 42 tons of maize.

"I am offering a natural food supplement... I am donating this food out of the goodness of my heart and to try and show that New Zealand is a loving country," Ms Drummond said.

She said she sprinkles the powdered supplement on her porridge every morning.

Kenya's Director of Medical Services Dr James Nyikal said: "There is no way that the ministry can allow dog food mixture to be brought in for human consumption."

Kenya has declared a national disaster because of the food shortages, which follow poor rains across the north.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/africa/4664884.stm

Published: 2006/01/31 15:28:53 GMT
© BBC MMVI

[johnnycakes]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

"Am I not the one whom you claim lacks "interlectual capacity" to discuss Cuba..So please....I cant disccuss this with a gaint of interlectual gaint who denies for years the failure of the prevention of corruption in Cuba by simply claming people power so only one party keeps power....
No need for an organised effective opposition... So is pure lie the BBC writes... But then I dont have the inteleculac capacity do I ????"



Walhalla, There is corruption in Cuba, but that corruption does not interfere with the Cuban system providing the basics of life for all it's citizens.
If you understood the Cuban electoral system perhaps you'd understand that no one can run as a memebre of any party including the PCC. Everyone runs as an individual and anyone can stand for office under Poder Popular even avowed capitalists. Of course anyone running under a platform of returning to capitaliosm wouldn't get much of a reception given the popularity of socialism in Cuba, the memory of what life was like in Cuba under capitalism and the knowledge of what life is like for the poor under capitalism in the rest of the Third World. You may be displeased with the Cuban electoral system but the 97% of Cubans who vote don't seem to share your feelings.
Further, the Cuban Communist Party which is the only one allowed in Cuba, as you said, controls ONLY the economy and not the political process.
You make the common error of confusing economic form with political form as do so many who tend to equate communism with dictatorship and capitalism with democracy.

"So the Malaysian goverment did not interfere with the foreign exhange markets in 98."

Which has what to do with black led countries in Third World Africa?
And in Malaysia does EVERYONE get enough to eat, adequate medical care , a decent place to live and to raise a family?

" China does not own most of the commanding heights... And China does not restrict competion"

And in China there are now hundreds of miillionaires and hundreds of millions of newly become poor because of the reversion to cut-throat capitalism.

". And wonderful Cuba did not have mom and pop resturants develop in the 1990's supplied by small private farmers.. Only (to) have the goverment in Cuba impose taxes to dreive them out of buisness and prevent the formation of any more ..And the private Robots was not driven out by Cuban Taxes.. I lack the interlectual capacity dont I..."

Walhalla, Those privately run businesses in Cuba were taxed to prevent the rise of the sort of income disparity that exists in all other Third World countries and which is inimical to a socialist/egalitarian society. It would be going back to the bad old days to have a family running a highly lucrative business, living far more lavish lives, living cheek-by-jowl with neighbors who lacked the ability to do the same. It creates the social problems that plague poor capitalist countries like Jamaica and those countries in sub-Saharan Africa. You may not like the idea of evening the economic field so that there are not wide differences in income, especially in a poor country like Cuba but that is the nature of socialism. Better that a few are unable to rise to wealth than many others lack the basic necessities of life.
Socialists understand that in the world today there is enough of everything to provide a decent life for all the people of Earth BUT only under a socialist system of distribution whose primary aim is to provide those basics for all.
A decent life for all, the fair distribution of goods andf services is a far second priority under capitalism to the ability of that top 5% to amass vast sums of money.

"Singapore does nto own 75 % of their major multinationals...(?)"

So what? Does that fact mean that every man woman and child in Singapore has all the necessities of life? No it doesn't.
And unless there has been massive tectonic plate activity fairly recently (last night), Singapore, China and Malaysia are nowhere near sub-Saharan Africa geographically and certainly millions of miles away in economic stability.

"And Malaysia Singapore and China dont have social programs to aliviate poverty, that has been lifting people out of poverty....the $1.00 a day as level of poverty???? $ 15 dollars a month is not poverty only in Cuba Right??????... But there is no poverty in Cuba has ??? And Im the intelectual midgit ????"

Walhalla,
Those three countries may have social programs to alleviate the effects of poverty but consider that the United States does as well and the poverty rate in the United States is still around 25%, will remain around 25% in perpetuity because those social programs address the symptoms of the problem of poverty but not the cause which is capitalism under which the wealth and resources of capitalist countries are in the control of a small elite and are not spread throughout the population as it is under a socialist economy.

"Malaysia has 7% poverty and falling. Singapore is less... Poverty is falling in China and will condies to...How much does Cuba have at $15 dollars per day..oops povvety ended with socialism... And Im called stupid no I lack interlectual capacity to discuss cuba dont I ???? Rationilise the truth.."

It's really nice to know that Malaysia and Singapore have lower poverty rates that any First World country. An amazing and totally fantastic notion.
As to Cuba's low per capital income figure, let me repeat something I've brought up before; Cuba has a per capita income of about $2800.00 US per year which is about $60.00 US per week. Jamaica has a per capita income of about $3800.00 per year or about $80.00 US per week.
On the face of it, Jamaicans make about 1/3 more than Cubans and should be far better off.
BUT ...if you consider that Cubans also get cradle-to-grave education, cradle-to-grave health care, guaranteed financial security, a safe social environment, enough to eat, that $20.00 dollars a week doesn't mean a damned thing. That same comparison can be made between Cuba and ANY other Third World or developing country where a child starves to death every two seconds and especially in black-led Third World Africa.
Cuba cannot end the poverty which afflicts all Third World nations but unlike any of the other Third World countries, Cuba, under a strict socialist economy, has eliminated the disastrous effects of poverty , things like the 12 million people whom starve to death each year, the billions of illiterates, the misery of not knowing if you or your children will live out the next month or year or be killed in the violence so common in poor countries under capitalism.


"Ad Capitalist China does not fix the exchange rate??? That is so like capitalism isnat it ???? Singapore and Malaysia dont own the companding heights of their economy ??? oops Petronas is privately owned...

[/ QUOTE ]"

So those few countries have some aspects of government control or ownership. What benefit is that to the poor?
Capitalism is the driving force in all those countries and by it's very nature it creates economic disparity and an distribution of the goods and services essential to a decent life that is so unfair and immoral that tens, hundreds of millions die each year because of that unequal and unfair sharing of the world's resources.

Whether your intelligence is lacking in this debate is not so much to the point as is your more than obvious lack of morality in both denigrating the socialism that feeds, houses, clothes, educates and provides a wide social safety net for all the people of Cuba and especially the most helpless, the children and the poor, and advocating capitalism that directly causes the deaths of hundreds of millions, the immiseration of billions due to it's very nature.

If the failure of capitalism to provide for all of humanity over a couple of thousand years isn't proof enough to convince you that it doesn't work, I certainly don't expect to have any luck in converting a bitter-ender such as you.

If you're tough enough, hard enough to overlook the fact that a child dies of starvation every two seconds under the system that you advocate, I doubt that Jesus Christ himself would be able to convince you of the immorality of your position.

Enjoy your steak.

[Archie68]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

What nonsense. People cannot organize themselves into parties and that is better? Poder indeed. A 50 year one person state equals someting better? No media but state media equals truth? Please, stop.

I acknowledge that Cuba's system provides the minimum to live. My claim is that: It is not only inadequate, it is false standard.

Cuba is a state controlled country with no posible changes in governance.

Let the people organize themselves into like minded groups, Johnny. Let there be debate, Johnny. Let them fight and insult and blame. Let them pound tables and verbally fight.

Your version of people power is stillborn. Stop. Only you believe Cuba's way is a real democasy or republic.

THe economics is a failure. The politics is a failure. Stop advocating losers. Come up with a better system Johhny. We are all waiting.

We don't like what is occurring in the non-Cuban world but find the Cuban way stupid and ineffective. We are waiting for a better system that is humane.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Archie,

"In the world today millions of children sleep in the streets.
Not one is Cuban."

In the world today Archie, a child , someones baby, someone's tiny son or daughter dies a slow and horrible death of starvation while the parents have to look on helplessly.
This happens every two seconds you addled fool but not in Cuba.
Not in Cuba and only not in Cuba of all the Third World countries.

You choose to quibble over whether a two-party political system or multi party political systems are superior to Cuba's no party political system.

In the first place the two party systems existing in countries like the United States and Jamaica are in truth no less the twin parties of a capitalist system just as Cuba's PCC is tied to the socialist economy.

You're talking about a political system and not about the economic system.

A political system decides who will run the country and they decide what sort of economic system will be in place.

Neither Jamaicans nor the people of the United States have any more say over which economic form they will live under thyan do the Cubans.

The big difference is that under Cuba's socialism everyone gets enough to eat and all the other basics of life, they seem to prefer that system and about 92% of the 97% of eligible Cubans who vote indicate via their secret ballotting that they prefer that system because they vote for those people.

In the U.S and Jamaica, the two parties decide who you get to vote for long before you get to cast a ballot. In Cuba the citizens of each district decide on all the candidates. Not the PCC, not the Republicans or Democrats, not the JLP or the PNP but unaffiliated citizens. Voting is voluntary and done via secret ballot. In the 1997 CUban election voters defaced some 2% of all ballots to indicate displeasure with their system. In the United States less than half of eligible voters even bothered to vote in the last presidential election because they knew they had no real choice between the two millionaires running for president.

Now you tell me where in the Third World a multi-party system has cared to or been able to provide the basics of life for all it's people.


You claim that Cuba provides all that but that it is "inadequate".

Tell that to the parents of the children that die of starvation every two seconds in the (non-Cuban) Third World under multi-party governments and capitalist economies. Tell that to the children whose parents die of AIDS because they live under multi-party/capitalist systems in which they are denied the medicine they need because they have no money.

In the world today you have two real choices of economic forms; capitalism or socialism.

The reality is that Cuba alone of the Third World countries has, in less than 50 years, been able to take a bankrupt country and has been able to supply every citizen with a standard of living, a quality of life unequaled in all of the Third World. This done while under virtual siege by the most powerful country to ever have existed. This done with a more democratic form than in any Third World country and , I would argue, than in the United States or Jamaica.

When you or anyone else can name a single Third World, Second World country that has achieved all that in such a short time under such adverse conditions, you'll have a position from which to argue effectively.

Perfect democracy does not exist anywhere. Cuba in 50 short years has gone from a dictatorship to a form of participatory democracy (representative republic) unique in the world. That democratic form is still developing despite U.S attempts to end that noble experiment and return it to a capitalist dictatorship.
It's a question of whether you see the glass as half full or half empty.
It's also a question of whether you see a decent provision for all as less important than the ability to quibble in a multi-party political farce.

You tell me how a multi-party system or any of thsmakes any difference at all to the 12 million people who die each year from starvation.

Otherwise your arguments are as "stupid and ineffective" as you find the Cuban way of life.
Maybe you'd prefer to go back to the way of death in practice in the rest of the Third World. People in many of those other countries can say whatever they'd like and run as many political movements as they'd like while their children starve and they die of the effects of poverty.

That's what I'm hearing in your posts.

[Archie68]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Again, we have you advocating the minimum. AS I said before, Cuba provides the minimums to live. I ask you, have I ever said otherwise? Thus, you are fighting a point I have given to you. I love your example. Such selective humanity.

It has been explain before. I tire of this. Good bye.

[wolmersboy]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
Again, we have you advocating the minimum. AS I said before, Cuba provides the minimums to live. I ask you, have I ever said otherwise? Thus, you are fighting a point I have given to you. I love your example. Such selective humanity.

It has been explain before. I tire of this. Good bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] True!