Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

**f0rTyLeGz** · 06-11-2011, 03:38 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

It amazes me that you actually believe this... depressing.

Anyway this is an OLD STORY. Alan Gross was sentenced to 15 years in prison on March 12, 2011.

**johnnycakes** · 06-11-2011, 08:58 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

40,
That Obama is proposing the 30 million dollar program against Cuba is not in question.
It is just his personal contribution to the war on Cuba.

My whole point here is to point out that Obama is no different from previous presidents over the past 50 years as regards the war on Cuba.

My point is also that IF socialism is the failure that the capitalists say it is why does the
United States have to wage economic war upon that socialist economy to make it fail?
(and it hasn't)

The fact that OBAMA is funding this destroy-Cuba mission is just one more thing he's doing to betray any notion anyone may have that he is a progressive or anything more than Bush Lite/Dark.

also.....this is not old news to Obama supporters.
It's news most of them have evaded.

**f0rTyLeGz** · 06-11-2011, 11:24 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40,My point is also that IF socialism is the failure that the capitalists say it is why does the United States have to wage economic war upon that socialist economy to make it fail?(and it hasn't)</div></div>
Probably it has something to do with Cuba turning into a communist satellite... and the fact that Cuba was going to allow the Soviet Union to put their missiles on the island. Remember the cold war? Atom bombs? Mao? Korea? The Berlin Wall?

And it is possible there is still trouble between the two countries because of JFK's assassination.

**johnnycakes** · 06-12-2011, 12:17 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40,My point is also that IF socialism is the failure that the capitalists say it is why does the United States have to wage economic war upon that socialist economy to make it fail?(and it hasn't)</div></div>

Probably it has something to do with Cuba turning into a communist satellite... and the fact that Cuba was going to allow the Soviet Union to put their missiles on the island. Remember the cold war? Atom bombs? Mao? Korea? The Berlin Wall?

And it is possible there is still trouble between the two countries because of JFK's assassination. </div></div>

40,
Fidel Castro proclaimed his socialist intentions and ever since he freed Cuba of colonial US domination and instituted Cuba's successful version of a socialist economy the U.S has mad e it the policy to destroy that socialist economy.

You'd have to have a rather deep understanding of the tendencies in the world socialist/communist movements to understand as few do, that Cuban socialism and government is not like the (Stalinist) Soviet model.

The U.S could care less if Cuba dealt with the Soviets : WE DID. Canada did , Mexico did, Britain did
It was the fact that Cuba adopted a SOCIALIST economy which was totally anathema and unacceptable to the United States. The Cubans depended on the Soviets because the U.S was waging the war on them and the Soviets were very glad to be able to offset the missiles that the U.S had then recently placed in Turkey
The Cubans did in fact have Soviet missiles on land in Cuba.
After the so-called Cuban Missile Crisis the U.S withdrew the Turkey missiles as a part of the deal that pulled the Soviet missiles out of Cuba.

BTW Cuba has and had every right to have any kind of missiles or defense systems they could get given that the U.S had tried and failed at Playa Giron to overthrow the government and EVERY country has the right of self defense.

OR do you want to contest this point?

In this particular subject I have the distinct advantage of not only having studied it for most of my adult life but having lived through the Cold War and doing so while quite politically aware.

I have the advantage of perspective and of knowing that U.S foreign policy in those days post WWII especially was preventing and eliminating socialist movements around the world and in the United States.

Most people today just don't know or understand this and it is the root cause of most of our problems in the world today like Afghanistan, poverty in Africa, torture and disappearances in many countries like Egypt and Colombia, hunger etc.

The Cubans are not the problem.
Do not point fingers at them until you damn the United States up and down for what they have done to Cuba's people.
Above all do not believe the U.S government or corporate media about Cuba:
Why?

Cuba Changes, U.S. Remains Stuck in the Past
By Saul Landau and Nelson P. Valdés

Source: Counterpunch Sunday, June 12, 2011
Change Text Size a- | A+
Saul Landau's ZSpace Page
Join ZSpace

Cuba opens its doors to religion freedom, while the U.S. ignores all progress in Cuba and Americans continue to live vicarious lives through their TVs.

President Obama and his advisers share with most of the mass media the same visual weakness when it comes to Cuba: they don’t see the obvious, the crucial facts and context that stare them in the face.

As Cuba begins to undergo basic changes to its economy and governmental structure, the reporting from western media follows predictably context-free and thus irrelevant standards.

For more than a half-century, most writers and radio and TV producers have had a conscious or unacknowledged stake in the failure of the Cuban revolution. To think otherwise, reporters and advisers have learned, would be a bad career move. In order to invalidate Cuba’s attempt to change the social relation of its society and spread its word to the rest of the third world the western media has consistently failed to place a context around the events that led up to the revolution. Instead, Washington and the stenographers called “the press” judge Cuba’s revolution by U.S. standards and in the U.S. context. Cuba must always perform according to what the media assume are standards of democratic perfection. This criteria for judging, beyond its vagueness, leads one to wonder about values and priorities.

For example, on May 24, typical Earthlink headlines contained the following back-to-back leads:

“NATO hits Tripoli; US says rebels can open office.”

“Alley has lost 38 inches since 'Dancing' debut.”

Kristie Alley – for those “outsiders” – has become featured as an actress with weight problems. “When Kirstie Alley performs on the "Dancing With the Stars" season finale,” the AP story begins, “she'll do it in a much smaller dress.”

That this item gets featured as a news headline – and would not appear in the Cuban media – epitomizes the U.S. free press, which argues that it must serve its readers’ interests. But the media has helped create vicarious living (“I identify with Kirstie,” say thousands of overweight women), just as the media has encouraged shopping and watching sports on TV as the essence of spiritual life (along with the rising porn industry and experiencing vicarious thrills from reading about the sinful sexuality of the rich and famous). "Our politics, religion, news, athletics, education and commerce have been transformed into congenial adjuncts of show business, largely without protest or even much popular notice. The result is that we are a people on the verge of amusing ourselves to death," wrote Neil Postman (Amusing Ourselves To Death).

When journalists judge Cuba they inevitably apply different standards than they do to the rest of the Caribbean and Latin America where “the veneration of crap” (Postman) continues to dominate.

Cuba has threatened Washington and its servile media not by being the model for education and health (many European countries are far better), but by being disobedient and cultivating different values. The vast majority of media makers have gone to report on Cuba with a conscious or unacknowledged stake in the failure of the Cuban revolution. They place no context around the events that led up to the revolution, and barely acknowledge Uncle Sam’s large boot on Cuba’s throat for 50 years. Then, they judge it by those vague standards of democratic perfection that they don’t apply to the Dominican Republic or the other neighbors.

Cuba has begun its changes, but neither President Obama nor the mass media have acknowledged them. U.S. policy demands, of Cuba, a “civil society,” while refusing to acknowledge the wide implication of the government’s initiatives with the Catholic Church. Add up the steps taken, Cuba’s cooperation with the Church carries wide implications for religious freedom and the broadening of traditional civil society.

Few U.S. media reports listed the vast increases of religious visits to and from abroad. Havana now permits public religious processions and religious blogs. The state has made scarce resources available to refurbish churches and in the last two years permitted the building of new churches and seminaries. Cuban leaders regularly show up at religious activities and allow churches to provide services to people in prison.

The Catholic Church now has radio time and its high officials have become interlocutors on matters involving prisoners, dissidents and even in foreign policy. The number of Protestant churches opening in Cuba has dramatically increased. The State no longer promotes Atheism. But these facts remain unreported as “significant change.” Indeed, every religious institution has called for an end to the U.S. embargo and the normalization of relations. The U.S. government appears to have grown deaf to the needs of religious people of the island.

Cuba is changing. U.S. policy remains stuck in its half century obsession to remove the only government Cuba has ever had that insists on retaining independence and sovereignty.

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http://www.zcommunications.org/cuba-changes-u-s-remains-stuck-in-the-past-by-saul-landau

**f0rTyLeGz** · 06-12-2011, 02:46 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

Hogwash.

When all Cubans are free to get on an airplane and LEAVE, then you can talk about how great Cuba is. They are prisoners the people of Cuba. They are not free. That line near the bottom, "Havana now permits public religious processions and religious blogs..." says everything you need to know. "Havana now permits." The government now lets people write about religion on blogs lol... now Google blogs from Cuba.

Cuba is now, and has been a communist dictatorship for over fifty years.

**johnnycakes** · 06-12-2011, 10:00 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hogwash.

When all Cubans are free to get on an airplane and LEAVE, then you can talk about how great Cuba is. They are prisoners the people of Cuba. They are not free. That line near the bottom, "Havana now permits public religious processions and religious blogs..." says everything you need to know. "Havana now permits." The government now lets people write about religion on blogs lol... now Google blogs from Cuba.

Cuba is now, and has been a communist dictatorship for over fifty years. </div></div>

40,
And when all citizens of the UNITED STATES are free to get on a plane and fly to Cuba maybe they'll really know what Cuba is like.

Maybe the dumbed - down and propagandized people of the U.S will understand what a dictatorship is and isn't.
Maybe then the dumbed-down and brainwashed Americans will understand what a communist is and isn't

FYI Cuba is as much a representative republic as is the United States.
I've gone round and round on this one a number of times but challenge me again on this if you'd like.

Cuba is not communist.
No country is communist.
No country has ever been communist.
Communism is a FUTURE UTOPIAN state of humanity.
There need be a long period of world socialism before the transition/evolution to communism.

Please don't call Cuba or any other country "Communist" for the sake of clarity.

As for freedom of religion, it is my deep belief that we should have freedom FROM religion as a guaranteed right and that it is a step backward to allow the teaching of myths, fairy tales, lies and immorality as represented by the Catholic Church of today.

I thought the Cubans were smarter than that .

**johnnycakes** · 06-12-2011, 10:11 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

Here is a link to the Havanatimes.org website search on "religion"
The links are written mostly or all by Cubans living in Cuba and are not censored or otherwise edited by the Cuban government.
If you really want to know what Cubans think about religion, read a few of the links.

Programmable Search Engine

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-0180372823511271%3Adzpcce-43id&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=religion&sa=Search+HT&siteurl=www.havanatimes.org%2F%3Fp%3D32544

**RichD** · 06-13-2011, 09:17 AM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a link to the Havanatimes.org website search on "religion"
The links are written mostly or all by Cubans living in Cuba <span style="font-weight: bold">and are not censored or otherwise edited by the Cuban government.</span>
If you really want to know what Cubans think about religion, read a few of the links.

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner...2F%3Fp%3D32544 </div></div>

how do you know that?

**johnnycakes** · 06-13-2011, 11:27 AM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a link to the Havanatimes.org website search on "religion"
The links are written mostly or all by Cubans living in Cuba <span style="font-weight: bold">and are not censored or otherwise edited by the Cuban government.</span>
If you really want to know what Cubans think about religion, read a few of the links.

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner...2F%3Fp%3D32544 </div></div>

how do you know that? </div></div>

I've done the reading and research necessary to establish that fact.
I am in e-mail contact with Circles Robinson who is at the head of the site and who is in a position to know whether or not his site is censored or government controlled and it isn't.

Even a casual reading of the diaries and articles would show that havanatimes.org is not under the thumb of the Cuban government.

BELIEVE ME... were the Cuban government to shut down the havanatimes.org website it would be all over Fox News, the Miami Herald and all the U.S. government media parrots as an example of Cuba's "communist dictatorship".

There is a Cuban woman who puts out a blog that reads quite a bit like the madness put out by the Florida Cuban right wing wacko websites and SHE is tolerated by the Cuban government, mainly because she is so out of touch with Cuban reality that she is no threat.

The criticisms of Cuban society that are to be found at havanatimes.org just put the lie to the shrill, rabid stuff of which the crazy right sites are made.

BUT... since what is to be found at havanatimes.org (and ZNET) so differs from what anti-Cubans, the U.S government , the U.S corporate media and most people think is the reality, it cannot be recognized as the truth.

As always, I say read the right wing sites, read the U.S media, listen to Hilary Clinton on Cuba and then read what the havanatimes ( and ZNET) offers.

and THEN make up your own mind as to who is closer to the truth of things.

Of course, as it always is with U.S foreign policy, it is sheer folly to accept the word or version of the U.S government and its complicit media on matters that concern Cuba.

**RichD** · 06-13-2011, 11:36 AM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

whats your view on this piece?

http://havanajournal.com/culture/entry/h...nd-leaves-cuba/

**johnnycakes** · 06-13-2011, 11:51 AM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whats your view on this piece?

http://havanajournal.com/culture/entry/h...nd-leaves-cuba/ </div></div>

It's two years old.

Havanatimes.org is still going strong so some of its conclusions are wrong..

It's written in an anti-Cuban style.

I liked Circles Robinson's personal account of what happened better since he leaves out the gratuitous anti-revolutionary crap found in the posted article.

The word "looses" in the title should have been edited to read "loses".

The media in the United States is under more self-censorship than the havanatimes.

**f0rTyLeGz** · 06-13-2011, 01:38 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

Only 2.9 percent of Cubans have access to an Internet connection in the last 12 months, and only 6 percent of them could access to the Internet from their private houses, an official report said Friday.

According to the report by the National Office of Statistics among 38,000 householders between February and April, 59.9 percent of them said they used the Internet at school, while the others did in their workplaces.

According to the official report, 31.4 percent of Cubans used a computer in the last 12 months and 15.6 percent accessed to the Internet by using the account of a third person.

Internet access in Cuba is restricted to research centers, academics, journalists and government officials."

人民网--404页面

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90852/7156861.html

Getting Online in Cuba Remains a Risky Endeavor for Most

May 28, 2011 at 4:00 am PT

Getting Online in Cuba Remains a Risky Endeavor for Most

http://allthingsd.com/20110528/getting-online-in-cuba-remains-a-risky-endeavor-for-most/?refcat=news

Only three percent of Cubans have direct access to the Internet, but many find more clandestine ways to get online and connect to the rest of the world.

http://havanajournal.com/politics/entry/...s-for-citizens/

**johnnycakes** · 06-13-2011, 08:16 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only 2.9 percent of Cubans have access to an Internet connection in the last 12 months, and only 6 percent of them could access to the Internet from their private houses, an official report said Friday.

According to the report by the National Office of Statistics among 38,000 householders between February and April, 59.9 percent of them said they used the Internet at school, while the others did in their workplaces.

According to the official report, 31.4 percent of Cubans used a computer in the last 12 months and 15.6 percent accessed to the Internet by using the account of a third person.

Internet access in Cuba is restricted to research centers, academics, journalists and government officials."

人民网--404页面

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90852/7156861.html

Getting Online in Cuba Remains a Risky Endeavor for Most

May 28, 2011 at 4:00 am PT

Getting Online in Cuba Remains a Risky Endeavor for Most

http://allthingsd.com/20110528/getting-online-in-cuba-remains-a-risky-endeavor-for-most/?refcat=news

Only three percent of Cubans have direct access to the Internet, but many find more clandestine ways to get online and connect to the rest of the world.

http://havanajournal.com/politics/entry/...s-for-citizens/

</div></div>

Well let's see what happens to restrictions when the U.S ends the war against Cuba.

You do know that the U.S IS trying to destroy the socialist revolution in Cuba hence the $30 million dollar outlay by Obama to wage a cyber war in continuance of that effort.

I didn't see any mention of that fact in any of the three articles.

**RichD** · 06-13-2011, 09:00 PM

Re: Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You do know that the U.S IS trying to destroy the socialist revolution in Cuba hence the $30 million dollar outlay by Obama to wage a cyber war in continuance of that effort.

I didn't see any mention of that fact in any of the three articles. </div></div>

has that fact been proven to be actually a fact? any other source?

Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

Obama To Cubans: "Drop Dead"

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