Fighting Racism In Cuba

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=45914</div></div>
I guess you didn't notice that my link went to the same page as your link?

[johnnycakes]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=45914</div></div>
I guess you didn't notice that my link went to the same page as your link? </div></div>

40,
I DID notice. I also noticed that you posted that the GOVERNMENT put up that 48 point proposal and not the non-governmentalm organization that did.
That info was in the first paragraph of the article.
The Cuban government isn't that progressive.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

Human Rights Watch states that &quot;freedom of assembly is severely restricted in Cuba, and political dissidents are generally prohibited from meeting in large groups. Amnesty states that &quot;All human rights, civil and professional associations and unions that exist today in Cuba outside the officialdom of the state apparatus and mass organizations controlled by the government are barred from having legal status.&quot;

[jah_yout]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is not so evident in Jamaica or the United States where the minority race is 12% or less (5%) in Jamaica and the races seem to stay apart.</div></div>

not true...different races have always interacted in J-A &amp; still do...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That racism exists in Cuba is not in question. But they, unlike the United States are seriously fighting it. </div></div>

not true either...
america at least addresses racism...
latin america has been in a massive denial until this moment

[jah_yout]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much melanin makes a black person black?</div></div>

&quot;black&quot; is a non-scientific, colloqial, cultural term...it has no basis in reality but is a political connotation...
a white-skinned african-american will be called &quot;black&quot; while a black-skinned south asian might be called &quot;caucasian&quot; or &quot;indian&quot;, etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What percentage of African blood makes one black?</div></div>

what makes anyone black?
why is the term black usually reserved for those of african descent?
people like south asians, aboriginal australians, papua new guineans, south pacific islands, etc very often have the very same skin color as so-called blacks of africa, yet these people are often not referred to as 'black'...
so tell me what it is about africans that gives them exclusive rights to the term &quot;black&quot;.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at pictures of large groups of Cubans and there is every shade of color between white and black in evidence.</div></div>

yes...and you will still not see any blacks in high positions of prominence...pretty much anywhere in latin america including brazil


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think every person would have a tough time looking at this and saying this one is black and this one is white.</div></div>

except when you are looking at those in the highest positions of power...
then you will most likely be saying..&quot;he is white&quot;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many light skinned people when asked would say that they are white ?</div></div>

most---because latin america attaches greater humanity to you the lighter your skin color gets...&amp; less humanity the darker it gets...
naturally people mostly opt for greater humanity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you go by skin color or your blood relatives?</div></div>

skin color discrimination is the leftover from primitive philosophies which have governed the world over the last few hundred years...
any person (such as myself0 who has blood relatives who span the entire spectrum of skin colors, knows how primitive this kind of thinking is...
good for the cubans that they at least acknowledge the despicable racial philosophy of latin america...it's a start;
maybe soon the entire peoples can come out of darkness &amp; barbarism concerning racism

[lonewolf]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Human Rights Watch states that &quot;freedom of assembly is severely restricted in Cuba, and political dissidents are generally prohibited from meeting in large groups. Amnesty states that &quot;All human rights, civil and professional associations and unions that exist today in Cuba outside the officialdom of the state apparatus and mass organizations controlled by the government are barred from having legal status.&quot; </div></div>

Uh, oh. Now you did it. I can't wait to see his response. He's going to tell you that they are not reputable organizations and are backed by the CIA and the ANTI-CUBAN Miami group.....I've seen it before, been there done that.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

Still, the question remains of how do you determine whether a person is to be considered black for WHATEVER reason. What are the criteria that a government use to make this determination if they want to fight racism by determining how many black people there are and what their positions/ status in life are so they can work on the problem of inequality ?

Do you have the census taker make that determination or the person being polled or use hospital birth records which may be wrong for one reason or the other ?

In a country like Cuba with a really big interracial population, methodology is very important and accuracy has got to be a bear..

[franksterr]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

JC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still, the question remains of how do you determine whether a person is to be considered black for WHATEVER reason. </div></div>

Racism is first and foremost a social construct and not scientific. So it is not precise in the particular, but precise in the general....Meaning that individuals can pass or be confused with what race they are, but people(groups) will not.
In most but not all Western country race is based first on Phenotype (appearance), Language, Heritage( family History), Culture.
Phenotype is African features and dark skin, anyone who fits one or both of these criteria s are generally considered black.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the criteria that a government use to make this determination if they want to fight racism by determining how many black people there are and what their positions/ status in life are so they can work on the problem of inequality ?</div></div>

Everybody know who is black, though emphasis on particulars my differ from society to society. So in order to determine race within a particular society you open it up for discussion in all spheres of that society. A working consensus will be reached.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have the census taker make that determination or the person being polled or use hospital birth records which may be wrong for one reason or the other ?</div></div>

Any method can be used to start the process.
I would go with the census taker asking the poll taker his or her race.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a country like Cuba with a really big interracial population, methodology is very important and accuracy has got to be a bear..</div></div>

Interracial is a plus and accuracy is not a subject of great concern, as what you are doing is opening doors of opportunity to large groups of people who have been denied. The individual who &quot;gets&quot; by because of his unique racial make up is not a deal breaker...as it is not about individuals but peoples.



I am in shock???? at the progress you have made!!!! I remember when you would not acknowledge the existence of Racism and Apartheid(still have not done) in Castro's socialist Cuba...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

&quot;Interracial is a plus and accuracy is not a subject of great concern, as what you are doing is opening doors of opportunity to large groups of people who have been denied. The individual who &quot;gets&quot; by because of his unique racial make up is not a deal breaker...as it is not about individuals but peoples.&quot;


I asked the question because there are conflicting statistics on Cuba's racial makeup with one poll having a much lower percentage of people who are considered African in origin.
If there are to be reparations or serious attempts to rectify the standard Latin racism in Cuba , they first have to know who is of what race .

You can't do any sort of accurate planning without these data.

[franksterr]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I asked the question because there are conflicting statistics on Cuba's racial makeup with one poll having a much lower percentage of people who are considered African in origin.</div></div>
You are &quot;making mountains out of mole hills&quot; here. In the US that's seems not to be or have been a problem. In the US it is simple if you have discernible black blood you IS black....I think it is similar but not the same in Cuba. Cuba has held on to the color gradations and family history way more.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there are to be reparations or serious attempts to rectify the standard Latin racism in Cuba , they first have to know who is of what race .</div></div>
Most people in each society has no doubt as to what race they are.
DETAILS:
I think the percentage of people whose race appears confused is around 20%. So 80% is known. Guaranteed the opportunities of the known blacks. To the ambiguous 20% reward according provable and documentable blackness.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't do any sort of accurate planning without these data. </div></div>
Think about the above as a outline to a rough draft.

[Archie68]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are &quot;making mountains out of mole hills&quot; here. In the US that's seems not to be or have been a problem. In the US it is simple if you have discernible black blood you IS black. </div></div>

Sorry, only in the USA. Latins have an extremely complex view of that. Among them, at some point, you get to pass. If you have money, you get to pass earlier.

I, like you find this odd. Yet, I have been enlightened by people from Brazil and the Domincan Republic.

Look it up before you claim it is not true.

In the famous words of Samuel L. Jackson, &quot; you do not judge these things on merit.&quot; It is what it is and we must accept. We must destroy the lie using time and persistence.

[franksterr]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are &quot;making mountains out of mole hills&quot; here. In the US that's seems not to be or have been a problem. In the US it is simple if you have discernible black blood you IS black. </div></div>

[quote]Sorry, only in the USA. Latins have an extremely complex view of that. Among them, at some point, you get to pass. If you have money, you get to pass earlier. </div></div>

Look I know you not following this thread, so let me reiterate my earlier statement<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">
Everybody know who is black, though emphasis on particulars my differ from society to society. So in order to determine race within a particular society you open it up for discussion in all spheres of that society. A working consensus will be reached.</span></span> so there is no need to be sorry, I already know.

Money can not change your race, only your class and status, these moneyed blacks are “honorable whites” akin to those in Apartheid S. Africa


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I, like you find this odd. Yet, I have been enlightened by people from Brazil and the Domincan Republic. </div></div>

It has to do with history and cultured, to me when considered the US racial designation system is odder.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look it up before you claim it is not true. </div></div>

No Need to, I already know as is demonstrated by the above quote

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the famous words of Samuel L. Jackson, &quot; you do not judge these things on merit.&quot; It is what it is and we must accept. We must destroy the lie using time and persistence. </div></div>.

Run tell that to Johnnycakes.

[franksterr]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rySn2z0dJSk

http://video.pbs.org/video/1822481755

http://video.pbs.org/video/1898347038

http://video.pbs.org/video/1915580662

[MsPeaches]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba


Afternoon, franksterr

Interesting videos, very strong on Cuban History. Only johnnycakes could give us a good idea of how impartial they are.


But when I was in Cuba in the late 1980s, there was no sign whatsoever of racism and everybody appeared equal. The two armed soldiers who picked us up when we were walking and asked us several rather penetrating questions were lighter-skinned, it seems to me, but apart from that , NOTHING.

I'd like to know the identity of the two gents who helped to fund this series; I think I'll go and have a look. They are funded also by the Ford Foundation, which raises some other questions.

Later.......

[franksterr]

Re: Fighting Racism In Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MsPeaches</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Afternoon, franksterr

Interesting videos, very strong on Cuban History. Only johnnycakes could give us a good idea of how impartial they are.
</div></div>

No they are not impartial, but still pretty accurate.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But when I was in Cuba in the late 1980s, there was no sign whatsoever of racism and everybody appeared equal. The two armed soldiers who picked us up when we were walking and asked us several rather penetrating questions were lighter-skinned, it seems to me, but apart from that , NOTHING.</div></div>

That the thing with racism, when its not overt, people tend not to see it.
Hey here is a question peaches is there racism in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to know the identity of the two gents who helped to fund this series; I think I'll go and have a look. They are funded also by the Ford Foundation, which raises some other questions. </div></div>

You do not have to look so far, Professor Gates is a very skewed historian.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Later.......</div></div>

I'd rather sooner