Marable: On Manley, Jamaica

[Sinco01]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica


More like keep the world colonized and the workers as slaves.
and the goal is "control" at all cost.


but for how much longer ... people are getting wise to their ways

need to "break that yoke" .. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70409-waytogo.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
More like keep the world colonized and the workers as slaves.
and the goal is "control" at all cost.


but for how much longer ... people are getting wise to their ways

need to "break that yoke" .. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70409-waytogo.gif[/img] </div></div>
Not fast enough. they are presently using the same three card trick that they have used against th people,even in their new found 'wisdom'.
I see many are mistaking the action against the PNP aministration,by the media under the direction of the private sector as some advantage. I see it as just another 'switching of horses' in the usual in the 'relay' by those who ride the people.
By the time the people realize that they are taken,the colonialists will just switch administration again,and continue in their 'leechfull' ways.

[Wahalla]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Walhalla,

Manley did not fall because of what Jamaicans thought of him.
He would not have been turned out without the violence and the destabilization programs promulgated by the United States.

That's the reality.

Further if Manley didn't care for the welfare of students and the poor he certainly was outdone by Edward Seaga, P.J and now Portia who have even less revenue than Michael because of the deepening debt.

Michael's problem was that he was too early. The Cold War was at its peak and he and Jamaica were just one more victim of capitalist imperial intervention and things have stagnated or gotten worse under so-called liberal economics.

Had Michael been elected in 2005 my guess is that having the examples of Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador and the retreat of the U.S from enforcing capitalism in this hemisphere, Jamaicans would be far more willing to make the big change.

This especialliy applies to the more democratic forms of electoral systems
in existence in Cuba and now forming in Venezuela where the people choose their representatives and not the political parties.

Here's an article from Znet:
July 26 2001

BEHIND THE VIOLENCE IN JAMAICA

By Saul Landau

In early July, Jamaica made headlines. Before the repressive forces had restored "order" more than 25 people lay dead. Some had been shot in the back of the head, others at close range. One witness reported that he heard pleas for mercy from inside one of the houses where the Jamaica Defense Force and police fired at their supposed attackers. The victims were mostly young men from Tivoli Gardens in West Kingston, an area that has served as the base for former Primer Minister Edward Seaga and currently leader of the opposition Jamaican Labor Party.

Seaga used gang violence as a political weapon in 1976 and 1980 when I was making campaign films for the People's National Party under Prime Minister Michael Manley. I witnessed Seaga's thugs use arson and gun terror as tactics to scare and alienate voters from Manley. Seaga at this time in 1976 and 1980 also enjoyed backing from the CIA. Manley strove, in vain, to forge a path of genuine independence, which brought a hostile response from Washington. Manley announced his neutrality in the Cold War, pushed the non-aligned nations groups and pursued friendship to neighboring Cuba. Manley took the lead among the Commonwealth nations in attacking the apartheid government in South Africa and he backed Castro's dispatch of troops to Angola to save its fragile independence from attacking armies from South Africa and Zaire -- policies that annoyed Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.

At home, he tried to make Jamaica as self sufficient in food as possible and to limit oil imports. Using a levy on bauxite to finance some of the reforms, he built housing for the poor and undertook a series of measures to bring the bottom classes higher on the social ladder.

The world financial elite retaliated against these "radical" polices. Jamaica's ability to get loans and credit suffered as Jamaica's business elite simultaneously withdrew their money from Jamaican banks and refused to invest. By 1977, Manley reluctantly accepted International Monetarv Fund support. But subsequently Manley's government did not pass the IMF tests because he allocated too large a part of Jamaica's budget to reforms that IMF officials believed maintained inflated wage levels. In this period, Jamaican leaders still behaved as if they, and not the world financial elite, controlled the economy. But without money they could not run the country, so they finally submitted to IMF "discipline." The Jamaican currency was devalued, subsidies for the poor were cut along with other government programs designed to help the poor and maintain some food self sufficiency.

In 1980, Jamaicans suffered not only from the effects being IMF'd, but also from the high oil and low sugar prices. By 1980 oil prices had risen from $8 to $32 a barrel. Add to the economic hardships, the campaign of gun violence, which reduced tourism in Jamaica and, predictably, Manley and his People's National Party lost the election.

Some 21 years ago, I witnessed a near assassination attempt against Manley. I also saw the results of the violence campaign: hundreds of dead, almost all poor people. In one case, thugs torched a residential community and shot people as they tried to escape the flames.

The People's National Party used its own gangs as well and often narco-trafficking and gang violence became hopelessly confused. From 1980 on, possessing state power in Jamaica meant rewarding friends and relatives. It ceased mattering which Party won elections because control of the nation's economic policy lay in the hands of foreign banks and corporations and international lending agencies. The gangs from both parties continued to thrive, however. But unlike the Manley years, gang violence now had little to do with political differences. Gangs dealt in drugs and other illicit activities, but the police and military slaughter of civilians in early July had little to do with policy differences. Rather, it exemplifies a situation common in the third world where the military and police massacre rival armed gangs who might compete with them for control.

Under Prime Minister Patterson, the People's National Party now runs the Jamaican State, but the corporate globalizers control its economy. The military and police in Jamaica as in other third world nations enjoy a certain autonomy. Operating under the façade of democracy, they establish their rules, one of which is assuring their monopoly over the means of violence. Politics has ceased to exist in anyn meaningful sense when the politicians lost control of the budget.

I recall visiting Michael Manley who won re-election in 1989 -- now as a free market promoter. I asked him what he planned to do.

"Either unblock the roads, clogged by Hurricane Andrew, or raise teacher's pay to keep schools operating," he said. "The current budget lacks money to do both -- or anything else," he sighed.

That statement and the recent violence epitomize conditions in Jamaica and in much of the third world, among the reasons that people demonstrate against this new world order -- wherever its leaders meet.










</div></div>

I love the emotive blame on Seaga...Oh simply hand the blame on the JLP... Oh the so innocent PNP...

And I never watched PNP men shove guns in my fatehr face, slap him rip the clothes off my mother ????? I never watched people shouting PNP slogans steal my goats ????? You want to hear a successful story Landlease... I never got told by the police that they were right to steal my goats because it was socialist time...

I was about 12 or 13 at the time... So my goats were collectivised and nationalised by a peoples committee... Funny thing those would have paid for my school kahki and shoes... Do you know waht it neever happened....Or should I have waited fro the free kahki that 20000 students were reputed to have received ??????

(My first act of anti- rvolutionary act was when they were rolling the manish wata from my goats was I sneaked in and spiked it with a dose of castor oil) I might add that this peoples committe also liberated some rum from one of the local shop keeper. Under the calim of socialism.....I recall this event vividly... When they stole I called on the spirit of my granmada who was a obeah ooman and thye would be punished.... I killed a John Crow (ever killed a John Crow????) and burnt the feathers off and pinned it to the ground in front one of the houses.. I got a rassing from my father for doing all of this... And you know what he supported the PNP.... But this never happened... Neither did the stupid slogan shouting..

I dont need the wrting of someone to tell me what happened I was there....And his views of the events are only as good as mine..

I was tehre and manley lost 80 election because the Jamaican people a sophisticated electorate understood the issues and voted his goverment out.. Are you saying it was stupid melanin people only react how wise white yankees tell em to ???? I have faith in Jamaican inteligence can you say the same of the yankees?????

How bout the macro economic management.... ????? 72-75 the economy shrunk.. But it was defined as growth because the currency was devalued about40 %.. ! and an increase in money supply..

But then that was progress, I just dont know it... I never went ot grade 3, 4 or 5.... nor did I get a yankee univesity education..

And how did you describe me once.. I wasnt inteligent enough to understand popular power ???? I am not I agree I experinced a small taste of it.. Have you ? ever lived personally under socialism or the attempt to impleement socialism ?

[julie*mango]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love the emotive blame on Seaga...Oh simply hand the blame on the JLP... Oh the so innocent PNP... </div></div>

Wahalla did you see where the article said
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The People's National Party used its own gangs as well </div></div>

Earlier on the JLP was just used as a tool by the outside influences to destabilize the Manley admin but things got so bad economically that the PNP had to use the same tactics used by the JLP to regain control. Now it really doesn't matter which party is in the power because Jamaica is in such a hole socially and economically that it is nearly impossible to dig out of it.

It amazes me how a gun woman can become the prime minsiter of a country. Only in Jamaica [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica

was about 12 or 13 at the time... So my goats were collectivised and nationalised by a peoples committee... Funny thing those would have paid for my school kahki and shoes... Do you know waht it neever happened....Or should I have waited fro the free kahki that 20000 students were reputed to have received ??????

Look wahalla, you goat was stolen not by Manley or even as a result of his policies. they were stole by plain jamaican 'tiefs'.
there arethose in avery society who use every opportunities to do what they live by. they are thieves,and thieves will always be with us. under ever administration,even in the most 'holy' state Rome. It has nothing to do with communism. although I do not think that communism is a sustaianble economic system.neither doI think that manley was a communist,or even socialist. I see him as a nationalsis,who thrived for an alternative capitalist system,in which economic colonies like Jamaica could achieve economic independence by functioning in a seperate economic capitalist system. thsi si because he realize that the economits colonial masters, had complete control of the markets. They control everything the colonial colonies use as inputs. They contril the quantities by quotas. They control th eprices by the commodities market. The control th equality,through the own the manufacturing process. they controll the money supply. they control the cost of the goods produced by the economic colonies.
they control the prices they pay. ..and they use those controls to keeep the economic colonies and their workers as slaves of the economic colonial masters.
every body talks about this problem as if it a political one of communism and capitalism. it is not. it is rather a problem of economic slavery and and economic independence. as an economist 9yes i am one) have been one since i was 20. and will be one as long as i exist0&gt; now back to the meat of the matter. As an econimist,i know that communism/socialism is not a sustainable economic system. they are like PONZI schemes. they will work for a while,but was the population/demand grows. they are not able to sustain productivity to maintain the social system.

i do believe that for the economic colonies to achieve economic eidependence. the citizens have to be educated regarding where the colonies truly are,and debunk th eidea of independence. the fact is that neither Jamaica,nor any other so-called third world country is independent. They are not independent politically, but especially they are noy economically independent. Now until a society has control over how it feeds itself. It is nothing but a peon in the house of those who feeds it.

[Wahalla]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

Post deleted by Wahalla

[Sinco01]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica

some people ah just teef .. an nuh waan wuk ..

so dem try fe tek de easy way .. an claim ah socialism ..

ah wouldn't blame dat on political party policy ..

[johnnycakes]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

Walhalla,
I never defended either the PNP nor the JLP. They were and are both political parties that support capitalism in Jamaica. Capitalism is a dictatorship of the rich, the owners. It serves the rich to the detriment of the poor. You suffered from the corruption that stems from the poverty engendered by both capitalism and neo-colonialism.

Manley was a cut above the corruption. He sought to help the poor and working people by utilizing the resources available, by keeping nmore of the bauxite revenue in country. This is something neither the PNP nor the JLP has sought to do since the U.S intervention.

And forget that nonsense about a sophisticated electorate. I don't know everything about Jamaica but I do know that more often than not, rumour has more power than truth especially in a country with a large illiteracy rate and few outlets for the truth (1980 was pre web) the CIA knew that very well when they spread the rumour that the government was hoarding oil and created an actual shortage when everyone ran out and bought all the oil they could leaving nothing on the shop shelves.
The truth was that there was a normal supply of cooking oil in Jamaica but when everyone buys two or three times the normal amount, there is nothing left in the stores and the rumour of government hoarding takes on the semblanvce of truth.

You cannot possibly believe that the people of Jamaica knew that the CIA was leading them by the nose. The CIA is in the business of destabilization., The CIA is the world expert in this. No one is better at it then they. It's their business.

The rumour mongering, the importation of guns, the internecine violence are all hallmarks of the CIA in countries not following the orders of the USA though you choose to deny it in the face of historical fact.

[Wahalla]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

And forget that nonsense about a sophisticated electorate. Just what I expect from you.... Jamaicans electorate are not stupid.... They have made choices based on their self interest that is a sophisticated electorate... They are much aware of the sophistry of the incoherent cliche ridden.. (Doc whats that principle called....

What you are saying we Jamaicans are so naieve that we beleived the posturing of the some white Americans. CIA. It hurts me personally every time you imply that us are stupid to think contrary to the gospel of cliches...For if we voted contrary to your ideal we must have been fooled..... The fact of the matter in 1980 the PNP was bankrupt moral, and their ideology was discredited and they only regained power by repostioning and ditching the ideological bankruptcy.....

None the less no less a personage than Manley himself admitted that there was no concrete evidence to suggest CIA involvement in his down fall. given this assertion by the man allegedly over thrown by the CIA means as one of those whom you personally think as of unsophisticated... then the fault lies within the competency Manley of the goverment.. Their intention may have been good but their incomptence led to the demise.. Good intention it execution led to the brain drain of an enthrapuneria class, a flight of capital tight capital but it must have been stupid to leave paradise for less...

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And forget that nonsense about a sophisticated electorate. Just what I expect from you.... Jamaicans electorate are not stupid.... They have made choices based on their self interest that is a sophisticated electorate... They are much aware of the sophistry of the incoherent cliche ridden.. (Doc whats that principle called....

What you are saying we Jamaicans are so naieve that we beleived the posturing of the some white Americans. CIA. It hurts me personally every time you imply that us are stupid to think contrary to the gospel of cliches...For if we voted contrary to your ideal we must have been fooled..... The fact of the matter in 1980 the PNP was bankrupt moral, and their ideology was discredited and they only regained power by repostioning and ditching the ideological bankruptcy.....

None the less no less a personage than Manley himself admitted that there was no concrete evidence to suggest CIA involvement in his down fall. given this assertion by the man allegedly over thrown by the CIA means as one of those whom you personally think as of unsophisticated... then the fault lies within the competency Manley of the goverment.. Their intention may have been good but their incomptence led to the demise.. Good intention it execution led to the brain drain of an enthrapuneria class, a flight of capital tight capital but it must have been stupid to leave paradise for less... </div></div>
So just because manley may be on record saying that he had no evidence that, the CIA did infact destabilize jamaica, that should be taken as gospel/
Do you think that all it iakes to prove fact is the veiw of a person,irrespectd of his position?
i know that he worked for the CIA in guyana against Jagan,but you think he had to say waht he believed then,although it would not improve his situation?
hey when he did that interview,he saw what they could do,and was really not intrested in dealing with that again.

[Sinco01]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

Manley himself admitted that there was no concrete evidence to suggest CIA involvement in his down fall. given this assertion by the man allegedly over thrown by the CIA

maybe not concrete evidence but more likely knowledge of the part they played

have you ever wondered why they sent home that US Ambassador "persona non grata" [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley himself admitted that there was no concrete evidence to suggest CIA involvement in his down fall. given this assertion by the man allegedly over thrown by the CIA

maybe not concrete evidence but more likely knowledge of the part they played

have you ever wondered why they sent home that US Ambassador "persona non grata" [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] </div></div>
The reason is public knowledge.
He made statement before the senate foreign relations commitee that Mr manley agreed to conditions advanrageous to Us intrests and at the expence of Jamaican citizens.
Mr manley said that he made no such agreement,and declared him Persona Non grata.. So he could not return to jamaica after his meeting in the US senate,and had to be replaced.

[Sinco01]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

mine is just "hearsay" ..

i think it was mentioned somewhere that he was also CIA Chief of Station in Jamaica ..

mi memory bad doah .. so don't quote mi pon dat .. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mine is just "hearsay" ..

i think it was mentioned somewhere that he was also CIA Chief of Station in Jamaica ..

mi memory bad doah .. so don't quote mi pon dat .. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img] </div></div>
my memory is NOT bad,and I can confirm that that was the reason.
It wzas covered by the gleaner. What you are refering to , about Station chief is another completely different story. one based of the former CIA operative. Who named named opeartives operating from the Embassy at the time. Station chief anf first officers were named and even a record of their previous placements,and incidents. Many of which left the country shortly after.

[Sinco01]

Re: Marable: On Manley, Jamaica *DELETED*

Doc u got the memory of a hard-drive
so 2 seperate incidents ..
but yuh info sure helps in the recall process ..
some of which is still like a fog back in these old memory cells