Seaga Reasoning

[Morpheous]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Between Manley & Seaga, I choose none! Never trust any politician! Between them they have divided Jamaica (permanently) into political war zones where brother kills brother. </div></div>This is not a question relating Menlie or Eddie specifically, but tell me this.
How else can a country be organized and run without a political system? </div></div>
The question/issue I have is not with the political system in Jamaica; it is the people that control/implement the political system. Politicians are skilled at hiding behind politics while they escape personal responsibilities for their individual actions.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

More4us,


Tuff Gong: "This is not a question relating Menlie or Eddie specifically, but tell me this.
How else can a country be organized and run without a political system?"

In Cuba's electoral system, the representatives to the Municipal, Provincial and National and Assemblies do not run under any party banner or platform as it is forbidden by the laws of the country. This eliminates the corruption that is endemic in electoral systems like Jamaica's and that in the United States.
On the Municipal level, the electoral groupings of a particular neighborhood gather at a local auditorium or arena and that large group is asked for nominees. Anyone can nominate anyone of his/hers neighbors to be their representative. No party is involved. When someone makes a nomination they are asked why they feel this person would make a good representative and they give their reasons. The group is asked for someone to second the nomination and if and when this is done, that person is an official nominee.
The process continues until there are no more nominees.

After that the process is as follows: No campaigning is allowed. (no donations, no corruption by bribery). All the nominees have their pictures and statistics such as age schooling, affiliations, occupation put up in a public place for the voters to read.

That's it. If there are many candidates, there is a vote and if no one gets 50% there is a run-off between the top two (maybe three-don't sure).

The winner serves in the Municipal Assembly and must, by law, report back to his/her constituency every six months. They have to stand up in front of the voters and tell them what they've done and answer all questions. If the voters feel they've not done a good job, they can vote them out right then and there by a show of hands and the nomination process begins again shortly after.

This is a system that would solve many problems if instituted in Jamaica.

g

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The question/issue I have is not with the political system in Jamaica; it is the people that control/implement the political system. Politicians are skilled at hiding behind politics while they escape personal responsibilities for their individual actions. </div></div>

I accept what you are saying, however from my reading, there is still no civilized way to deliver goods and services to the citizenry other than through politics.

If more a country’s citizens come to recognize that and accept that it is their duty to vet and choose who leads them, then there will be fewer avenues for corrupt leaders to find their way into the system.

[Morpheous]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

I think we are saying the same thing TG. In a nutshell there need to be way to make accountability work. This in turn may make it harder for corrupt individuals to enter into politics. The irony is ... who passes such laws for accountability? who are the law makers accountable to? How far will the law go? Who has the political will?

The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements!

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Tuff Gong:
[ If more a country’s citizens come to recognize that and accept that it is their duty to vet and choose who leads them, then there will be fewer avenues for corrupt leaders to find their way into the system.


Tuffy,
Since the PNP and the JLP choose from amongst their members as to whom will be presented to the electorate and since such a small percentage of average Jamaicans either participate in this process or belong to either party, how can the system be reformed.?

It is not in the interest in those in power to cede their power. The status quo suits them fine and no matter what the people may want, they'll get only what the two parties want for candidates.

This is a problem that exists worldwide wherever political parties alone make the determination as to whom the people get to vote for.
There is no way to fix that problem without instituting a basic change at the bottom so that the voters both nominate and elect representatives who must be accountable to the electorate and not the party hierarchy nor those who finance them .

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Tuff Gong: "<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=More4us]The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream."



To which I ask, where has this ever been done. In what multi-party electoral system in the world has this fantasy of having a huge percentage of the regular/non-politicians join a political party and see to it that honest individuals get into power?.

Was this even ever attempted anywhere in the world?

Do you really believe that those at the top of these parties would cede power to those whose views run counter to their interests?
IMO rebels would be tossed out before they could challenge the hierarchy, the status quo.
The other problem with this dream is that you could not get very many people to believe that they would have any effect on the system given that they have been and felt powerless and detached from the political structures for so long.

[Morpheous]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong: "<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=More4us]The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream."



To which I ask, where has this ever been done. In what multi-party electoral system in the world has this fantasy of having a huge percentage of the regular/non-politicians join a political party and see to it that honest individuals get into power?.

Was this even ever attempted anywhere in the world?

Do you really believe that those at the top of these parties would cede power to those whose views run counter to their interests?
IMO rebels would be tossed out before they could challenge the hierarchy, the status quo.
The other problem with this dream is that you could not get very many people to believe that they would have any effect on the system given that they have been and felt powerless and detached from the political structures for so long. </div></div>
Pursue your passion

[Morpheous]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream.
</div></div>
TG... remember or came across this thread I posted some time ago?

Solution to the problems

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream.
</div></div>
TG... remember or came across this thread I posted some time ago?

Solution to the problems

</div></div>

I am sorry I did not read it.
What were they?

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Right More4us,
Kirk was very inspirational-Pursue your dream of reforming the Party system that runs from the top down in a dictatorial fashion, in a way that historically opposes real change and those who would change the staus quo that serves the parties and the wealthy of the country.
Pursue that pipe dream band you will still awake to a corrupted and non-democratic electoral system of representation that does not represent the working man or the poor, that has no ability to solve the problems it helped create and worsen.

Power does not concede power. The wealthy and privileged will not willingly share that wealth and power.

Pursue that pipe dream and put your hopes for a better government to sleep.

What we all need is participatory democracy and we will not get it from party politics.





.

[Morpheous]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream.
</div></div>
TG... remember or came across this thread I posted some time ago?

Solution to the problems

</div></div>

I am sorry I did not read it.
What were they? </div></div>
The title is self explanatory

[Morpheous]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Reply for Johnnycakes:
Hmmm... I am about to start a thread on this... lets see how many and who from this thread will take part? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

Link

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream.
</div></div>
TG... remember or came across this thread I posted some time ago?

Solution to the problems

</div></div>

I am sorry I did not read it.
What were they? </div></div>
The title is self explanatory </div></div>

So what are the solutions?

[Morpheous]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is accountability regardless of the political system a country implements! </div></div>

Right and the only way to ensure accountability is to become part of the political process.
Join a party or a local organization, get involved, so that the right individuals get into the stream.
</div></div>
TG... remember or came across this thread I posted some time ago?

Solution to the problems

</div></div>

I am sorry I did not read it.
What were they? </div></div>
The title is self explanatory </div></div>

So what are the solutions? </div></div>

Bring in the UN