Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In America's (U.S.) old West there used to be traveling salesmen who would go around from town to town selling what has come to be called "snakeoil"; bottles of cure-alls that contained mysterious and exotic things such as "snakeoil" and usually a high percentage of alcohol.
These were touted to cure all manner of diseases and the peddler usually had a couple of people in the crowd gathered around his wagon who worked for him and who would buy and drink the snakeoil and then make all sorts of claims about how good they felt. The salesman then sold a lot of his fake cure and made his living this way. People would buy a bottle or two drink it get a buzz off the alcohol and feel pretty good but the next day whatever really ailed them still ailed them.
</div></div>

Is this not exactly what you are doing every single aliment in Jamaica can be solved by the cubans.. Castro cuba is an illusion with no hope of existing in the next 10 years.. Run by a Caudillo for the last fifty odd years...

A self confessed user of halluicogentic compounds should not accuse some one of smoking...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes Cuba has deals with capitalist countries to run tourist area hotels but Cuba maintains a majority share and all the profits go into the socialist economy for the benefit of the people and not for a few rich hotel owners. Cuba , as has been said, is a poor country under siege by the United States and these deals were deemed necessary and are beneficial to the Cuban people and represent no compromise in Cuba's socialist economy.
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This then means that tourism in cuba is partially owned and partially run by Capitalist using capitalist principles.. With profits being sent back ot capitalist companies listed on the Madrid stock exchange in which I own shares. and to faciliate this a revision was made to the Cuban constitution ... the same goes for Agriculture, Energy and telecommunications... The only problem is that if any Cuban attempts to open a little something they are stymied by buracrasy, high taxation.. While letting forgienrs have tax concessions and repatriate their costs, and profits.. Tax breaks going to large investing corporations but not to mama and papa run bodegas.... Unless of course the large companies that are JV partners in Cuba do it out the goodnesso f their heart.. Odd that I have made profit out of compaies that operate in Cuba....and it is sanctioned by mi primo the beard...

A near mirror image of what is toted by Jamaica....And tax concession to large corporation so often touted as an evil.. They can own and operate resurants byut a local cannot.. Is that not unfaired trade ?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Fidel instituted a massive literacy program that has culminated in free and universal education for all Cubans. Michael could not do that.
</div></div>

Manley did that...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do some reading and get to understand Cuba's Poder Popular electoral system to see how much more democratic their processes are that those in Jamaica or the United States before you make absurd statements about what is and what is not democracy.
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Just the little matter that allows a single poltical party to be legal.. Thus in the event that a poltical party is organised it is uncosntituional...On the other hand while I can read you should think..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If any Jamaican thinks that they live in a democracy, they are dreaming.
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And if any Cuban thinks that Popular power is any thing but an attempt at personal control they are as naieve as any self confessed yankee halucenogenic smoker...

And tell us of your vist to Cuba ???? Why instead you claim to love Jamaica??? (Is that not a remincient of the cololonialist admisnistrator who "loved" us out our customs and beleifs with an alien ideology.. ) to quote a SA poet

" .its a long long time sinceyou first came
inot my village
and told me how to forget my past
and seek a future in his image"

What wyou proposed that is colonialism with by another ideology.. Just like the Spanish and English, Yankees before.. Tell us to give up who we are and we will have a happy future.. Well this Taino remebers how men of your ilk have murder our gods and we rejects it...

Well bring out the insults.. What will it be this time ? "Running dog, Class Traitor, Capitalist pimp....eediat.. or will it be my spelling and grammar...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
I'll just take this from your last post to illustrate the point that you don't know what you're talking about.
Quote
"Just the little matter that allows a single poltical party to be legal.. Thus in the event that a poltical party is organised it is uncosntituional...On the other hand while I can read you should think.."

My response: Cuba's electoral system does not allow the participation of ANY political party and that includes the PCC which acts as the watchdog over the ECONOMIC system to prevent any backsliding into the old capitalist system that the Cubans got rid of in 1960.
While many elected officials are members of the PCC it has nothing to do with whether or not they are nominated.

I rest my case.

Cuba feeds, clothes, houses ,educates, gives medical, dental and mental healthcare, provides a safe environment to raise a family, for everone who lives in Cuba and it is a poorer country than Jamaica.

Jamaica with the political and economic systems it had, has and will have for the foreseeable future and which you cling to has not, cannot and will not be able to provide as good a life for all its people.

You point out what you perceive as faults with the Cuban politico-economic systems while totally ignoring how bad so many other important things are under capitalism and the totalitarian "democracy" that is Jamaica.

Cuba with its socialist economy solved the problems of poverty that afflict Jamaica. That's not snakeoil. That's reality

Finally you said,
" Manley did that."
(instituted a massive literacy program that has culminated in free and universal education) .
to which I ask:
"Where in Jamaica is that free and universal educational system?"


..

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cuba's electoral system does not allow the participation of ANY political party and that includes the PCC which acts as the watchdog over the ECONOMIC system to prevent any backsliding into the old capitalist system that the Cubans got rid of in 1960.
While many elected officials are members of the PCC it has nothing to do with whether or not they are nominated.
</div></div>

Ah so the PCC has oversight over the economy. And they change the constituion to allow a mixed economy with capitalist repartirating their money and giving preference tax ot forgien companies instead of local Cubans...... And since the only party who has elected officals is PCC they have the single a corum to change laws for the last fifty years without an organised opposition...

A single chamber that meets lets see two times a year... with six hundred members of which how many are members of the PCC ????. Guess as a Jamaican I want my representatives to meet more often and debate events as they happen.. And since the assembly elects the council of ministers, and the sumpreme court given that the fact that the pcc is the single organised party.. one wanders how often they vote for someone who disagrees with them... A national parliment that meets twice a year... oops.. Oh they can elect the same person a totla of how many times as general sectrary and his brother as seacond... Just a mirror image of the constituion of Uganda under Amin... A left wing one party state.. a machine to ratify a singel opnion generated by a single point of veiw led by a singel individual for fifty years...Longer than Houphouët-Boigny....

As for the evil Batista who filelito loves to draw on.. Is it my memory or did the PCC not support him ????

Hey I have the right as a Jamaica to call my primeminster an wind bag . It will get printed or on the radio. So does the Cubans..They can call call Portia that... Pity they cant call their beard that....

So often have you visted the cuban assembly ???? or I am I to assume you have never even visited...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cuba's electoral system does not allow the participation of ANY political party and that includes the PCC which acts as the watchdog over the ECONOMIC system to prevent any backsliding into the old capitalist system that the Cubans got rid of in 1960.
While many elected officials are members of the PCC it has nothing to do with whether or not they are nominated.
</div></div>

Ah so the PCC has oversight over the economy. And they change the constituion to allow a mixed economy with capitalist repartirating their money and giving preference tax ot forgien companies instead of local Cubans...... And since the only party who has elected officals is PCC they have the single a corum to change laws for the last fifty years without an organised opposition...


Walhalla,
Again your response shows a near complete misunderstanding or a willful twisting of the facts to suit your anti-socialist stance.
The PCC may have approved the running of tourist hotels by European capitalists but it was an economic necessity and while they split the profits with those European companies, the money that the Cubans take in goes right into the betterment of the society as a whole and not into Fidel's pocket. All this money is money they would not be getting otherwise and with the economic stranglehold imposed by the United States and which you and all opponents of Cuba's revolution choose to ignore so as to bolster your anti-socialist thought, the Cubans need all the income they can get. For you to equate these islands of tourism isolated from the Cuban society is intellectually untenable.

"A single chamber that meets lets see two times a year... with six hundred members of which how many are members of the PCC ????. Guess as a Jamaican I want my representatives to meet more often and debate events as they happen.."


The National Assembly as t you said meets twiwe a year in its entirety BUT while these members are back at home working at their regular jobs, there is an elected sitting council which handles the day-to-day affairs of the country and passes needed legislation. The entitre National Assembly meets that twice a year and IT approves or dissapproves whatever laws and measures have been passed by the sitting council and this system works just fine.

'" And since the assembly elects the council of ministers, and the sumpreme court given that the fact that the pcc is the single organised party.. one wanders how often they vote for someone who disagrees with them..."

The National Assembly that elects the ministers and Fidel and all top officials is comprised of people from all over Cuba and while I don't have the figures as to what percentage of National Assembly members are PCC members I do know that less than 15% of the Cubans belong to the PCC and PCC members are not allowed to run as party members but only as individuals. The PCC does not put up, is not allowed by law to put up a slate of candidates. The Cuban people are free to vote for whomever they want and the fact that some 90-97% of Cubans vote indicates that they feel voting is not a waste of time, that their vote means something..

"A national parliment that meets twice a year... oops.. Oh they can elect the same person a totla of how many times as general sectrary and his brother as seacond...'


I know just how hard it must be for you as a Jamaican to understand that in Fidel and Raul the Cuban people have two very capable leaders who have transformed Cuba in the way Cubans wanted it transformed. Jamaica has never had the brilliant and visionary leadership of anyone like these two men and in fact nothing but leaders who can't lead, leaders who are unable to make life better for Jamaicans but who are running the country into the ground.
In Fidel the Cubans had a combination of George washington who led thye American Revolution, Abraham lincoln who was credited with freeing black Americans from slaveryy and Franklin D. Roosevelt who brought the country through an economic depression and World War II. The y are reelected because the people like the way they lead. No one is forced to vote for anyone in Cuba. Elections are quite democratic and are based on qualifications, performance and not what party the person belongs to and not how much money they can raise. Difficult for someone like you to understand especially since you don't like the truth of it.


"Just a mirror image of the constituion of Uganda under Amin... A left wing one party state.. a machine to ratify a singel opnion generated by a single point of veiw led by a singel individual for fifty years...Longer than Houphouët-Boigny...."

Sure, right. Fidel is just like Amin and Houphouet-Boigny those dedicated democratic-socialists. You're getting a bit wild here.

"As for the evil Batista who filelito loves to draw on.. Is it my memory or did the PCC not support him ????"

Again you have your facts screwed up. The PCC that supported Batista was the Moscow oriented Stalinist Communist Party. All the Moscow oriented communist parties supported pigs like Batista and Lyndon Johnson in the United States. That was and is Moscow oriented CP policy.
When the revolution won in Cuba, Fidel took over the party and it became Fidelista and no longer followed the insular policies of Satlin but took a world view of things more in line with Trotsky though not Trotskyist.
But you wouldn't know that because again, it is inconvenient and damaging to your argument.

"Hey I have the right as a Jamaica to call my primeminster an wind bag . It will get printed or on the radio. So does the Cubans..They can call call Portia that... Pity they cant call their beard that.... '

That's right. You have the right to say anything you want about Portia or Golding because you are powerless to change anything. What do the people in power care what you or anyone else says? They have control of who you get to vote for.
It is an empty right.
People in Cuba might complain and they do about shortages and long lines but they know that Fidel and the government of Cuba is doing the best it can and for the most part treat everyone fairly. In Jamaica no one believes that either party is serving them fairly and they complain about conditions and they blame the politicians over whom they have NO control.

You choose to nit pick the under-siege Cubans while ignoring the glaring and much bigger faults with your own country's government and economy and you make damned poor arguments.


"So (how) often have you visted the cuban assembly ???? or I am I to assume you have never even visited... </div></div>"

I have never visited the National Assembly in Cuba or the U.S. Congress in Washington nor the Jamaican government but I know how they all run.
The Cuba people by their 97% voting rates have indicated that they are satisfied with their electoral system. You need only read the regular corporately owned press to know how dissatisfied people in the U.S. and Jamaica are with their political forms and how their government fails to take care of them.

[Q3210]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

97% Cubans are satisfied. Therefore from the remaining 3% you find x% fleeing Cuba by precarious and desperate means because their freedom of movement has huge limitations.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

So the PCC supported Batista. Fidel calls Batista evil and all those who agree with him… So the PCC is bad.. Castro is the head of the PCC so must be evil… QED..

Since you have toted the maximum leader as moral, good and kind to small animals.. He has over the years repeatedly condemned Batista, labelled any one who oppsed him as a supporter of Batistia.. While all the while the PCC had ministers in the Batista government….

Actually you may find that the PCC support extended not during Stalin but also Khruschev… And yes Fidel is exactly like Houphouet-Boigny he is the head of a one party state enshrined in his countries constitution… And ahs remained so for life.. another maximum leader with no one to challenge but a tame assembly that meets twice a year….

And the unelected party has oversight over the economics for over fifty years.. This takes presidence over the Assembly that meets let see how often.. Twice a year…. thus

That is principle of a sitting parliament/assembly is the idea to hold the action of the government to some form of censure…. And what you offer tis


Lets see when the PCC does a joint venture with a foreign company that’s good.. But the forgienc company is not a capitalist exploiter…

When Jamaica does a Joint venture with a foreign company that’s bad ???? And the same conditions would be decried as a capitalist exploiter…

When foreign companies repatriate profit from Cuba that’s good.

When Cuba changes its constitution to ensure that big business can make a profit that’s good.

When

When foreign companies repatriate profit from Iraq that is evil Yankees dominating the world economy.. Funny thing the same principle…. So its ok for the Spanish to do this but not the Yankees in Venezuela..

Sounds very fragmentary to me….

No you have offered Cuban political system as a panacea with the provisio that Jamaicans have nothing better to offer. Now you protest when it is critiqued ????…This is the poltical equalvalent of world akin world Bank economic management … a one solution fits all poltical issues…

I merely pointed out it obvious flaws. You offer Popular power as a solution. The absence of I have demonstrated that it is a simple myth. That the assembly in Cuba has in effect no oversight. It is left in the hands of the Council of Ministers.. With as you put it the PCC over viewing the economy.. The same PCC that as a principle prevents an idividual from starting a business but changes the tax laws to allow a conglugemrate export revenue, but prevents a local from starting a business..

No first you tell me that I don’t know.. When I demonstrate that I do understand the process… And I actually believe that the Jamaican Parliament is a much more critical at the defence of our rights rather than the Cuban Assembly that meets twice a year. . Like an assembly that meets once every six months, dominated by a single organised party…(course your number of 15 % PCC members with no organised opposition any disagreement is quickly course the council of ministers are again..

Then Castro is a middle class "Haute Bourgeoisie" to quote one description of him by the PCC…. Now that was a time when the PCC oposed....

Now when does the name calling start... Seems the CP and its denizens call any one who oppose them multiple syslable names... ?????

But for an uneducated Taino that has got to be an impressive disection of the Cuban poltical system.. Power effectivel concentrated in the hands of one....

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">97% Cubans are satisfied. Therefore from the remaining 3% you find x% fleeing Cuba by precarious and desperate means because their freedom of movement has huge limitations. </div></div>

Q3210,
I simply cannot believe that you posted that. I have gone over this point at least five times in great depth and so has Calvin.
Now please read this and remember.
Cubans leave Cuba and head for the US for the same reason others from the Third World do: for the chance to make a lot of money.
The BIG difference is that Cubans have to do it in anything they can beg, borrow or steal to float into the U.S because the U.S. will not grant them entry visas and have passed a law which says that Cubans and only Cubans who step foot on "dry land" (florida or the Keys) are automatically granted entrance.
They do this so gullible people will see them in their flimsy rafts and think" Wow things must be so bad in that "communist dictatorship" that the people are so desperate that they'll risk their lives to get to Florida.

And how about the millions of Mexicans who risk their lives crossing the desert into the southwestern U.S.?

I'll ask you this; If the "Dry Land" law that now only applies to Cubans were made to apply to Haitians, Dominicans, Jamaicans, anyone living in any country in Latin America and the Caribbean, how many millions of rafts would be afloat in the Florida Strait tomorrow?

HOW MANY?


As to that 90-97% voter turnout in every Cuban election: why would the Cubans bother voting if their vote like the votes in the U.S. and Jamaica elections were meaningless? Only some 3% of ballots in one national election that was written about were turned in blank or defaced as a protest.

Remember, the Cuban people and not a crooked political party choose THEIR candidates and those elected have to answer directly to those people at regular "Accountability Sessions" at which those elected can be thrown out by a majority show of hands.

The government in Cuba pllaces the needs of the people first and not the politicians nor their rich friends.
It is what Cuba's revolution was and is all about even in the face of the U.S propaganda war in which lies become truth as witness your post.

[Q3210]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Okay fine. What is it that makes the Cubans in Miami so hateful of their beloved Castro?
Seems that once the Cubans land on US soil their minds go smucked.
And after knowing that, they still risk the journey to join with their fellow Cuban Floridians on Radio Marti.

[Q3210]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

So if it were left to Castro he would allow Cubans free travel to the USA.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Wahalla]"
So the PCC supported Batista. Fidel calls Batista evil and all those who agree with him… So the PCC is bad.. Castro is the head of the PCC so must be evil… QED.."

JC-Let me correct you. The PCC that exists today isNOT repeat NOT Moscow oriented e.g. Stalinist. It is Fidelista and follows the international and democratic ideals of Fidel Castro and NOt the insular and totalitarian policies of Stalin.
All the other CPs in the world are still Stalinist. Understand the difference?


Walhalla: "Since you have toted the maximum leader as moral, good and kind to small animals.. He has over the years repeatedly condemned Batista, labelled any one who oppsed him as a supporter of Batistia.. While all the while the PCC had ministers in the Batista government…."

JC- Again let me correct you. Yes the PPC cooperated with and participated in the Batista dictatorship. That is Stalinist policy: to support the lesser of two evils. That has nothing at all to do with today's PCC.

Walhalla: "Actually you may find that the PCC support extended not during Stalin but also Khruschev… And yes Fidel is exactly like Houphouet-Boigny he is the head of a one party state enshrined in his countries constitution… And ahs remained so for life.. another maximum leader with no one to challenge but a tame assembly that meets twice a year…. "

JC: (Sigh) The word Stalinist means like Stalin and the Soviet Union remained Stalinist until it disintegrated. It does not mean that Stalin was alive or in power.

On likening him to African dictators: Fidel is elected by free and open election by the total National Assembly which is elected by the people of Cuba from the bottom up. To repeat: BY LAW, THE PCC DOES NOT PARTICIPATE IN ELECTORAL POLITICS IN CUBA. The Cubans outlawed the participation of political parties to avoid the corrupted electoral policies of countries inlike the U.S. and Jamaica where power and money dictate who will win and the parties nominate the candidates and NOT the people. The Ivory Coast does not have any such electoral system.

Walhalla: "And the unelected party has oversight over the economics for over fifty years.. This takes presidence over the Assembly that meets let see how often.. Twice a year…. thus "

JC: First sentence: TRUE. Cuba has a new trye of socialist economy that requires constant change and revision. Cuba is also under attack from the United States which wants to stop socialism in Cuba just as it has done in countries all over the world for about 100 years. That said the Cuban people through their elected officials can ask for change but admittedly that is unlikely since the vast majority support the socialist economy and the better life it has given them since they threw out capitalism. Those who want capitalism have either left 50 years ago or can apply for an exit visa to any country they chose Cuba has long had a policy of granting exit to any dissidents since they would be nothing but trouble if they were forced to stay as was the case in the Stalinist USSR.

Walhalla: "That is principle of a sitting parliament/assembly is the idea to hold the action of the government to some form of censure…. And what you offer tis "


JC: The members of the National Assembly do not merely go home and work at their regular jobs most of the year. They have to keep up on all the laws and other business passed by the full time sitting Council in full detail. When they meet twice a year, they are fully prepared to either ratify or veto anything passed by the sitting Council. They are at LEAST as efficient as any parliament or Congress in the world since they are fully in touch with the people they serve and not in some insulated government bubble out of touch as are politicians in Jamaica and the U.S.


Walhalla: "Lets see when the PCC does a joint venture with a foreign company that’s good.. But the forgienc company is not a capitalist exploiter…"

JC: Cuba has joint ventures with capitalist companies that serve the purposes of the Cuban people. They take in money that they would otherwise not have.
SWhen and if the U.S war against Cuba is over and Cuba's economy is allowed to grow as it will the Cuban government at that time and when it is to the benefit of Cubans, will buy out the foreign companies.


,Walhalla: "When Jamaica does a Joint venture with a foreign company that’s bad ???? And the same conditions would be decried as a capitalist exploiter…"

JC: If Jamaica chooses to go into a joint venture with foreign companies and it is the government that is in charge then I would suppose the money is used for necessary things and would be a good thing.
The problem with capitalist Jamaica is that chances are it is a private company and the money goes into very few pockets and not only not for the common good but it also expatriates whatever share the foreign company owns.
The other problem is that these are permanent deals and Jamaica is selling more and more of everything to get a few dollars that do not seem to make any difference in the worsening conditions in Jamaica. Neo-liberal economic policies of today's capitalism DO NOT WORK IN THE THIRD WORLD.


Walhalla; "When foreign companies repatriate profit from Cuba that’s good"

JC: No it's not but it is economically sound since 51% goes to the Cuban people and it is 51% more than they would have if they did not make these deals..

Walhalla: "When Cuba changes its constitution to ensure that big business can make a profit that’s good. "

JC: See above re money that Cuba gets that it wouldn't otherwise.

When

Walhalla: "When foreign companies repatriate profit from Iraq that is evil Yankees dominating the world economy.. Funny thing the same principle…. So its ok for the Spanish to do this but not the Yankees in Venezuela.."

JC: The U.S is in the process of getting finalization on oil contracts that would expatriate huge sums of money that previously stayed in Iraq and provided schools, hospitals, electricity, sewage , infrastructure that is now and that will be lacking for the foreseeable future in that wrecked country. If that;'s okay with you then by definition you are an imperialist. Same goes for all the bilkions the U.S steals from historic dealings in Latin America nd the Caribbean. How much of Jamaica's GDP goes to U.S banks for old loans?

Walhalla: "Sounds very fragmentary to me…."

JC: Sort of like your thinking which has more holes than the Albert Hall.


Walhalla: "No you have offered Cuban political system as a panacea with the provisio that Jamaicans have nothing better to offer. Now you protest when it is critiqued ????…This is the poltical equalvalent of world akin world Bank economic management … a one solution fits all poltical issues…'

JCF: The fact is that Cuba's Poder Popular electoral system IS far more democratic than what exists in Jamaica and the U.S. and there is no reasdon it cannot work in Jamaica or the U.S unless you think that the people in either of these two countries lack tthe intelligence to pick candidates that would best represent them and thereafter hold these elected officials accountable.
Just waht is it about Pode Popular that you think is unworkable? Be specific in your response.

Walhalla: "I merely pointed out it obvious flaws. You offer Popular power as a solution. The absence of I have demonstrated that it is a simple myth.

That the assembly in Cuba has in effect no oversight.

JC: This is patently false, untrue.The National Assembly in Cuba has full power over the sitting Council, Fidel, ANYONE and ANYTHING in Cuba. You need to read the Cuban constitution.

Walhalla; "It is left in the hands of the Council of Ministers.."

JC: Yes but only until the full Assembly meets and then it can be overridden by the vote of the full National Assembly. UNDERSTAND IT YET?

Walhalla: "With as you put it the PCC over viewing the economy.. The same PCC that as a principle prevents an idividual from starting a business but changes the tax laws to allow a conglugemrate export revenue, but prevents a local from starting a business.."

JC: I know it's difficult for you to grasp this but the PCC controlling the Cuban socialist economy is no less a necessity than is the capitalist corporations ands oligarchic heads of corporations necessarily dictatorially controlling not only the economies but the electoral processes in capitalist countries. But unlike in capitalist countries the PCC cannot by law control Poder Popular. I


Walhalla: No first you tell me that I don’t know.. When I demonstrate that I do understand the process… And I actually believe that the Jamaican Parliament is a much more critical at the defence of our rights rather than the Cuban Assembly that meets twice a year. . Like an assembly that meets once every six months, dominated by a single organised party…(course your number of 15 % PCC members with no organised opposition any disagreement is quickly course the council of ministers are again..

JC: Apart from the last sentence above which is unintelligible, the falsity of the rest of the paragraph above has been patiently explained to you in detail .

Walhalla: "Then Castro is a middle class "Haute Bourgeoisie" to quote one description of him by the PCC…. Now that was a time when the PCC oposed...."

JC: Wow what a shock. The Stalinist (pre-revolutionary) PCC to which Fidel's internationalist and democratic principles run about 180 degrees opposite had nothing good to say about him? That to me says only good things about Fidel

Walhalla: "Now when does the name calling start... Seems the CP and its denizens call any one who oppose them multiple syslable names... ?????"

JC: I wouldn't know since the PCC is Fidelista and not the old Stalinist PCthat allied itself with Batista and I never paid any attention to any Communist party line as you do.

Walhalla: "But for an uneducated Taino that has got to be an impressive disection of the Cuban poltical system.. Power effectivel concentrated in the hands of one...."

JC: Out of a commitment to civility: No comment.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

JC-Let me correct you. The PCC that exists today isNOT repeat NOT Moscow oriented e.g. Stalinist. It is Fidelista and follows the international and democratic ideals of Fidel Castro and NOt the insular and totalitarian policies of Stalin.
All the other CPs in the world are still Stalinist. Understand the difference?

Wahalla: Fidel had a party he took over the PCC and then overnight puff, the PCC became morally superior. There was no change.. It was buinsess as usual, part of the soviet international system. And yep ole Joe was as international as Stalin.. his adventures in China, Germany, Central Europe, Italy….were akin ot Castro in CAR, Ethopia, Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia. Tehre was and is no ideological diference pre and post Castro to the PCC… It was a standard commintren agenda with corporation with the govermetn and a rebel movement. The situation was akin to the support that the Soviets gave to the General Chiang Kai Chek while supporting Mao. Nothing more nothing less. Then Mao did exactly the same as Fidel…. See below for further answers…



JC- Again let me correct you. Yes the PPC cooperated with and participated in the Batista dictatorship. That is Stalinist policy: to support the lesser of two evils. That has nothing at all to do with today's PCC.

Wahalla: As previously explained there was a standard comintren tactic… As explained by Stalin in his first congress after taking iover. If there was a difference they would have simply changed the name ot underlined the difference… But I will come to that later…


JC: (Sigh) The word Stalinist means like Stalin and the Soviet Union remained Stalinist until it disintegrated. It does not mean that Stalin was alive or in power.

Wahalla: Ah so you agree Stalinism was an unsustainable affront to human diginity….. All post colonial African dictors have a rubber stamped party. Many had a single party with command of the economy…. Of course you wont deny this….. This is identical to what the Beard has done all in the name of the people, exactly like the comic opera African dicator….. A rose by any other name.. but a pile of crap is still faecal matter…



On likening him to African dictators: Fidel is elected by free and open election by the total National Assembly which is elected by the people of Cuba from the bottom up. To repeat: BY LAW, THE PCC DOES NOT PARTICIPATE IN ELECTORAL POLITICS IN CUBA.

Wahalla: Good to know.. And the story of the tooth fairy is true to my six year old. (Although I think she knows its her mother that puts the cash under her pillow) Do elected communist officals resign from the party or submit to the desires of the central committee ? They retain their party alliance and vote as per the wishes of the central party… As there is no legal opposition who can organise and bring to bear support they would be overwhelmed…. The use of a trained motivated Cadre to dominate the poltical process as prescribed by Lenin…

The Cubans outlawed the participation of political parties to avoid the corrupted electoral policies of countries inlike the U.S. and Jamaica where power and money dictate who will win and the parties nominate the candidates and NOT the people. The Ivory Coast does not have any such electoral system.

Wahalla: The Cubans thus outlawed poltical parties…. Even Reagan never tried this. This will never happen in Jamaica…Under the Ivorian old man they had repeasted elections which he won with equal equiminity as Fidel still does.. This constitution is nearly identical to what the Soviet Union defiend as Social Democrasy…. It prevents by law the formation of any parties except the PCC…And if history runs true to form the Ivorian experiment may be repeated…..


JC: First sentence: TRUE. Cuba has a new trye of socialist economy that requires constant change and revision. Cuba is also under attack from the United States which wants to stop socialism in Cuba just as it has done in countries all over the world for about 100 years. That said the Cuban people through their elected officials can ask for change but admittedly that is unlikely since the vast majority support the socialist economy and the better life it has given them since they threw out capitalism. Those who want capitalism have either left 50 years ago or can apply for an exit visa to any country they chose Cuba has long had a policy of granting exit to any dissidents since they would be nothing but trouble if they were forced to stay as was the case in the Stalinist USSR.

Wahalla: Strange thing happened during the period opf special circumstance when Cubans could legally start a business.. I believe 20,000 business were started.. And once they succeeded beyond expectation…They were stymied by the PCC by the use of Taxes and regulations.. Why so that big Capitalists conglamerates could take over.. Rather than develop an indigenous enthraanueroal class.. They were taxed out in preference to allow others to come in and reap the reward.. Constiutional changes were made in order to alow the repatriations of revenue by big buiness. Rather than focus on internal investment generated from this emerging class. Big transnationals were allowed in.. Rather than small family owed hotels.. The monolith were let in. Changes included the loosening of the environmental laws, changes to allow the sale and ownership of land. And the government did actually sell land.. Why not let Cubans try a ting ? Because with economic success that would pull a class out of rations they would demand political change, that would allow furter development of private enterprise. No they rater let 49 % of the profit leave than develop internally. A memory of the identical thing happened in the Soviet Union…. The funny thing is that big hotels are more efficient and per bed room would have employed less people than small private hotel. Would have had high profit margins, a Mcdolisation of the tourism product..…. Instead a myth is fed that “the embargo” … Stuff and non sense.. The use of keeping people poor to maintain control..


JC: The members of the National Assembly do not merely go home and work at their regular jobs most of the year. They have to keep up on all the laws and other business passed by the full time sitting Council in full detail. When they meet twice a year, they are fully prepared to either ratify or veto anything passed by the sitting Council. They are at LEAST as efficient as any parliament or Congress in the world since they are fully in touch with the people they serve and not in some insulated government bubble out of touch as are politicians in Jamaica and the U.S.

Wahalla: And the PCC has oversight on the council. Thus the council will only pass economic and social subject to the approval of the unelected PCC the only poltical party that can be legally organised ……And the 15 % members of the assembley who the PCC are instructed what to vote and what to table. But there are no strategic alternatives. While the disparate other house members are left stranded.. A tactic as defined by Lenin to bring legality to a one party state….The use of parliemtnary procedure to stop the formation.. .It is instructive that the same absrobtion of non PCC into the PCC post revolution. The same tactic was carried out by the Soviets, with procecution then absorbtion of the Social Democrats, socialist , the Mechivicks into the Bolshivicks…..Jamaicans for all our faults have developed a disapproval of singular control….


JC: Cuba has joint ventures with capitalist companies that serve the purposes of the Cuban people. They take in money that they would otherwise not have.
SWhen and if the U.S war against Cuba is over and Cuba's economy is allowed to grow as it will the Cuban government at that time and when it is to the benefit of Cubans, will buy out the foreign companies.

Wahalla : Re read the deals that the Cubans have signed…. And see what they actually say…oops you don’t read Spanish….



JC: If Jamaica chooses to go into a joint venture with foreign companies and it is the government that is in charge then I would suppose the money is used for necessary things and would be a good thing.
The problem with capitalist Jamaica is that chances are it is a private company and the money goes into very few pockets and not only not for the common good but it also expatriates whatever share the foreign company owns.
The other problem is that these are permanent deals and Jamaica is selling more and more of everything to get a few dollars that do not seem to make any difference in the worsening conditions in Jamaica. Neo-liberal economic policies of today's capitalism DO NOT WORK IN THE THIRD WORLD.

Wahalla: When Jamaica Government has done the same thing it has been between public owned companies this has been done in Coffee (marketing),tourism, power, mining and agriculture.. Exactly like Cuba…. Know what you are talking about… So then it is OK for Cuba and Not Jamaica ?????? Guess Neo Liberal does not work in Malaysia, Barbados, ect…. With high incomes.. What is the average wage in Cuba ?????

JC: No it's not but it is economically sound since 51% goes to the Cuban people and it is 51% more than they would have if they did not make these deals..

Wahalla:…. and 49 % goes home.. Seems that Castro made worst deals than Venezuela made prior to Chavez… Nice to know that…. That is even worse than the Jamaican Goverment JV with Alcan in the 80’s…


JC: See above re money that Cuba gets that it wouldn't otherwise.

Wahalla: And this is support of the idea of private international investment. . Let foreign investors in so they can create opportunities. At the same time let locals compete. What the PCC has done was let in foreign companies and not let Cubans develop to compete. Either they don’t think Cubans are capable…. Note when the Jamaican Government tried this with the Chinese. There was a out cry. And the Jamaican worker out performed the much vaunted Chinese… I have faith in Jamaicans.. You don’t… The PCC obviously thinks Cuban cant develop.. Or there is an ulterior motive….What the difference is is that the Cuban PCC prevents private iniaitaves that could develop and retain more.. Why fear of a development of a entrepreneurial class…..The argument that the world Bank makes for their policy.. So JC agrees witth world bank arguments… But also agrees that Cubans should be treated by the PCC like the US treated the Iraq’s once they started building.. give the opportunities to forgiens.. I have faith in Jamaicans to develop ideas and buiesnes.. You don’t… Ob



JC: The U.S is in the process of getting finalization on oil contracts that would expatriate huge sums of money that previously stayed in Iraq and provided schools, hospitals, electricity, sewage , infrastructure that is now and that will be lacking for the foreseeable future in that wrecked country. If that;'s okay with you then by definition you are an imperialist. Same goes for all the bilkions the U.S steals from historic dealings in Latin America nd the Caribbean. How much of Jamaica's GDP goes to U.S banks for old loans?


Wahalla: Bull the deals that the Iraqi have in place are JV. Like in Cuba With a greater participation of the National oil companies during the production phase...... Note read the document. Do you understand that this means that the bids are open in public ?????... It states all production in Iraq is owned by the NIOC. They will chose those who extract it by commpetive open tender…Do you understand this concept or what it entails ??? Ask the people Sao Tome Principe.. They can explain it to you.. … currently only one new field has been found.. And who runs it. Not the US. But the Norwegians.. With 80 % going to the Kurdish govermetn once production starts depending on a number of technical criteria…. But by socialist logic that is worse than a mere 51%....As for the loans Jamaica took these loans.. We are morally responsible for them… Like it or not… That our leaders squandered it… Is interesting given that it was those who espoused the ideas of socialism used development money to buy consumer goods… And Cuba does repay its loans. When in the early 90’s Cuban debt was forgiven Jamaicans was not. … Ever wondered why ????? Could this forgiveness was tied into the development of the JV’s… The PCC plays the same debt game as the rest of the world…


JC: Sort of like your thinking which has more holes than the Albert Hall.

Wahalla: At least you admit I am thinking… Normally you get shrill and go name calling… But thank you for admitting I am capable of thought. This is against your usual attacks of eediat…



JCF: The fact is that Cuba's Poder Popular electoral system IS far more democratic than what exists in Jamaica and the U.S. and there is no reasdon it cannot work in Jamaica or the U.S unless you think that the people in either of these two countries lack tthe intelligence to pick candidates that would best represent them and thereafter hold these elected officials accountable.
Just waht is it about Pode Popular that you think is unworkable? Be specific in your response.

Wahalla: Poder Popular .. is merely a retranslation of Democracy… Pork Belly by any other name…. The central issue is one party, one house with ultimate control of the economy by the PCC ….Oh its workable… It is workable just like its elder brother the Soviet Union was workable.. With the same idea of a central party at the heart of the constitution, having an over view of the economy and a security apparatus that uses fear and sows descent….It is as workable as the North Koreans with its control of the flow of information…. The North Koreans do also have similar political structure with a unelected party with over sight of the commanding heights of the economy, a demi-god as leader, assestion based on family, with an elected assembly, a political and security oversight by the same party…. The soviets never at least has succession based on family connection…..

So lets see why I see this an unworkable to Jamaica:

1) A single unelected party has control of the economy.
2) As there is no other legal party there can be no counter balance to the power and organisation of the single party…
3) A single party without external organised opposition will ossify into a cult of personality. The fact of the matter there has been one leader for 50 years.
4) Without the oversight of an organised opposition the submitted cannot be tested to destruction by the fire of an organised view point…. Instead the constitutional party has the resources both personel and information to put its view…. Instead as the party is subject ot a single displince, diverse opions that deviated from its orthodoxy is given short shift overwhelmed by single side issues … Once a course of action is agreed by the party. Its elected 15 % can simply gerrymander the intentions of the party through the assembly without the oversite of a secondary house.
5) The unelected party has control of the commanding heights of the economy. The idea means that in the event that there is any pseudo opposition from any geographic location not centrally control investment will acrure to that location. This means it is in the interest of the local representatives to go along with the desires of the single party as there is no alternative to take control of the economy. As all poltics is personal the descion has to be taken to go along as this will ensure that
6) As the party is guaranteed its existence by the constitution, the state the government and the nation becomes almost indistinguishable.. With the edicts of the party quickly being ratified by law.
7) No second house of Elders ie senate. The lesson of the first French revolution assembly is forgotten …. With your grasp of history you know what I am talking about…
8) The lack of faith in peoples ability to develop jobs and
9) A lack of independent unions that are not associated with the single party.




JC: This is patently false, untrue.The National Assembly in Cuba has full power over the sitting Council, Fidel, ANYONE and ANYTHING in Cuba. You need to read the Cuban constitution.

Wahalla: I have read the constitution in its orginal language… Have you ? But does what is written translate to in paractical terms. ? You admit that the PCC has oversight of the economy, what else does the PCC have over sight of ? Thus the opnion of the Assembly on economic matters becomes secondary to the power of the PCC, so does the Council of Ministers… It is poltics by commited Cadre as advocated by Lenin….


JC: Yes but only until the full Assembly meets and then it can be overridden by the vote of the full National Assembly. UNDERSTAND IT YET?

Wahalla: Which may not meet till six month after the events. And given that 15% of the assembly is subject to the discipline of the party they can control. A simple hint by the oversight economic committee to shift resources will guarantee that the ministers prononumcents will carry.. A hint ala Thomas Abecket…

Now tell me I cant spell!

JC: I know it's difficult for you to grasp this but the PCC controlling the Cuban socialist economy is no less a necessity than is the capitalist corporations ands oligarchic heads of corporations necessarily dictatorially controlling not only the economies but the electoral processes in capitalist countries. But unlike in capitalist countries the PCC cannot by law control Poder Popular.

Wahalla: It is not difficult ot gasp a two year old understands it.. Capitalism saved Castro’s economy. A centrally planned company cannot respond to the needs… It cannot respond in time… But instead of Oligarchs you have a single 15% of the population controlling the wealth… And constitutionally any one who organises is stymied as traitors… Party dictatorship…So it is nice that the above statement implies that dictatorship by an organisation is a nescisty… We Jamaicans don’t want that. Please in future when I tell you you said that the control of an economy by an unelected body is a nesscity you don’t call me a liar….


JC: Apart from the last sentence above which is unintelligible, the falsity of the rest of the paragraph above has been patiently explained to you in detail .

Wahalla: Go on insult tis standard practice form you. No you have explained but what you explained is realistic a chance of convincing noone… Demonstration.. No other country as adopted it…And they have rejected the other comic opera poltics North Korea. With their retranslations of mob power.. (A translation of democracy from its roots)


JC: Wow what a shock. The Stalinist (pre-revolutionary) PCC to which Fidel's internationalist and democratic principles run about 180 degrees opposite had nothing good to say about him? That to me says only good things about Fidel.

Wahalla: Same as yesterday. Now read… The PCC intention in the 1920-50’s was to take over the commanding heights of the economy, have party control of the economy, the unions, and the social agenda. And to have itself enscossed as the sole constitutional legal party…… It has done so. Its control mechanism as mentioned has been implemented. The difference then and now was simply then the PCC had no power ,now it has. It has succeeded to take control of the Cuban economy. Then it was not controlled by Castro, now it is. Then it supported a illegal dictator, now it supports a dictator who has changed the constitution to give himself legality… Then it was involved in a rubber stamp election, now it is involved in rubberstamping elections by making any political organisation but itself illegal…. Then it intervenes to prevent oppostions party to develop, now it done the same and made itself constitutionally legal. Now the PCC has fulfilled its ambition to have a single party in place in control of the economy it is different then when it was not in power ?????. At the heart iof the PCC si the philosophy of Marx-Lenin with Fidel giving it a Caribbean feel. Get it..The “Haute Bousigese” has taken over the political party used its tactic to subvert the other parties … Then there was multiple leaders, now there has been one for nearly two generations…..then there were leaders from the working class / middle classes, now there is a leader from the plantocrasy. …. Or is Fidel not like me a Class Traitor ? What a shock…

JC: I wouldn't know since the PCC is Fidelista and not the old Stalinist PCthat allied itself with Batista and I never paid any attention to any Communist party line as you do.

Wahalla: First I am a pimp for capitalism.. Now I pay attention to the Communist party line ??? … What exactly does PCC stand for ?????… Lets rink Cuban Party of Concubines, the La Partida Christiana de Cuba or La Partida Communista de Cuba…..Once you accused me of benign a Christian now by implication a follower of the communist party line.? …. I don’t call people running dogs, eediat or tell racist jokes.. Nor do I project my beliefs on any one. I believe as the lady said we don’t want your brand of one party rule, Marxist –Lenin vers 2.1… With its bells and whistles.. If you want export it to Kanada….


JC: Out of a commitment to civility: No comment.

Wahalla: that would be a first… I must congratulate you.. The next time you will attack my spelling….Now you cannot call me an idiot.. You stated I could think. Let me be clear…The Cuban model has no attraction for Jamaica… I have now explained why I don’t want Castros version of Marxist - Leninism…. IMHO it is a relic of the cold war and the racism of Washington….

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know just how hard it must be for you as a Jamaican to understand that in Fidel and Raul the Cuban people have two very capable leaders who have transformed Cuba in the way Cubans wanted it transformed. Jamaica has never had the brilliant and visionary leadership of anyone like these two men and in fact nothing but leaders who can't lead, leaders who are unable to make life better for Jamaicans but who are running the country into the ground.
In Fidel the Cubans had a combination of George washington who led thye American Revolution, Abraham lincoln who was credited with freeing black Americans from slaveryy and Franklin D. Roosevelt who brought the country through an economic depression and World War II. The y are reelected because the people like the way they lead. No one is forced to vote for anyone in Cuba. Elections are quite democratic and are based on qualifications, performance and not what party the person belongs to and not how much money they can raise. Difficult for someone like you to understand especially since you don't like the truth of it.
</div></div>

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif[/img]

That is terrible...

I feel so sad made this comparison …. I am so impressed with mi primo now.. ah the Cuadillo….. Poor Cuba....

So lets see George Washington,a reputed rapist, slave owner, the owner, and son of the owner of a planatation… I cant see the connection…. According to a school of thought a less than adequate military leader.. Me I kina tink he had some guts too keep his troops at Valley Forge. (Incidentally was so insecure of his one competent general that he used political machination to push him out) Lets see Castro would never do that what was that Angolan war hero name again who never fought in Venezuela ???? …. But who refused the crown of colonies and stepped down from public office after two terms…. Warned of the dangers of turning the Presideny into a dictatorship.. An admirer of Cincinnatus…They are going have to use a blow torch to remove Fidelito out of his thown…..now Honest George signed a document that made most of the people on here 3/5th human.. And me well guys at least you got 3/5th … A man of Taino heritage would be well a “dirty injun”. And see how many treaties he signed and cheated people like me. Well now the mystery of Camilo Cienfuegos is now solved…..

Abe Lincoln.. The obvious opportunist who was one of the earliest advocate of kicking out African people from the United States.. Now what was honest Abes reaction to Haiti again? And what of his early years in the Ohio State Militia on ethnic cleaning missions …. To the extent that Lee was reputed to have he had never seen fight defence like that before or since. Ah his love from people of Taino ethnicity would have ended in blood and guts ….. A man who was in denial of his ethnicity…. And slept in the beds of other men…..Suspension of Haebus Corpus.. Fidel a chi chi man ???? I may not agree with his poltics but sleeping with other men ????? Who as you should know freed no slaves except in the parts of the US that he was not in command of.. And the constitutional change was made during the period of Johnson pPresidency.. He was no Seward… And you compare Raul or Fidel to him.. Good to know !


Well Franklin.. do you really want me to start on that… The ultimate politician who did not think law was a hinderance or thought nothing of imprisoning a group of his nationals as enmy combantants…. What was his most famous comment on pere Samoza again.????

So combining a number of the characteristic of these an amoral plantation owner who suspends the constitution when it suits him for political expedience… But then I think on history not myths


Fidel is no more a saviour than any of these and unlike these never subjected himself to an organised opposition…. And unlike Gerogie never stepped down…. And course from the 70’s I recall listening to Radio Rebelde proclaiming there was no rascism in Cuba unlike the United States … (yep dis bad spelling youth grew ups listening to Cuban radio when he could afford to buy a battery fi listen im bruk back radio….) Wonder when rascism returned to Cuba ?????

Let me put it thus Norman, Raul or Fidel.. Norman every time! Seaga or Raul ?? Well as much have have a personal, poltical dislike for Seaga… Got to be Seaga.. Sorry Cuz….

Still for all their wonderful leadership you chose to live in a country with my selfish leaders instead of a country that is lead by such saintly leaders! Confusious as per "A man prefers to live in a country with a fair leader even if there is a fear of death"...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

JC
All the other CPs in the world are still Stalinist. Understand the difference?

Wahalla: Fidel had a party he took over the PCC and then overnight puff, the PCC became morally superior. There was no change.. It was buinsess as usual, part of the soviet international system. And yep ole Joe was as international as Stalin.. his adventures in China, Germany, Central Europe, Italy….were akin ot Castro in CAR, Ethopia, Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia. Tehre was and is no ideological diference pre and post Castro to the PCC… It was a standard commintren agenda with corporation with the govermetn and a rebel movement. The situation was akin to the support that the Soviets gave to the General Chiang Kai Chek while supporting Mao. Nothing more nothing less. Then Mao did exactly the same as Fidel…. See below for further answers…

JC- I just cannot argue with your historic ignorance as regards the Moscow oriented (Stalinist) Communist parties of the world. If you do not understand that history , you cannot understand the difference between Cuba's internationalist policies and the PCs insular-lesser-of-two-evil policy that had them support Batista, Lyndon Johnson and totally fail to support the ant-fascists in the Spanish Civil War, something Fidel would NEVER do.



JC- Again let me correct you. Yes the PPC cooperated with and participated in the Batista dictatorship. That is Stalinist policy: to support the lesser of two evils. That has nothing at all to do with today's PCC.

Wahalla: As previously explained there was a standard comintren tactic… As explained by Stalin in his first congress after taking iover. If there was a difference they would have simply changed the name ot underlined the difference… But I will come to that later…

JC: See my reply to your first point.


JC: (Sigh) The word Stalinist means like Stalin and the Soviet Union remained Stalinist until it disintegrated. It does not mean that Stalin was alive or in power.

Wahalla: Ah so you agree Stalinism was an unsustainable affront to human diginity….. All post colonial African dictors have a rubber stamped party. Many had a single party with command of the economy…. Of course you wont deny this….. This is identical to what the Beard has done all in the name of the people, exactly like the comic opera African dicator….. A rose by any other name.. but a pile of crap is still faecal matter…

JC- You still fail to understand that Cuba allows NO POLITICAl parties
The PCC is not a political party. It does not have a list of candidates for whom the Cuban electorate can vote. . Each representative that serves in government is nominated and elected by the people as individuals. This in no way can be misconstrued as anything similar to what existed under the Stalinist Soviet Union where every person in government was a member of tyhe Communist Party.



On likening him to African dictators: Fidel is elected by free and open election by the total National Assembly which is elected by the people of Cuba from the bottom up. To repeat: BY LAW, THE PCC DOES NOT PARTICIPATE IN ELECTORAL POLITICS IN CUBA.

Wahalla: Good to know.. And the story of the tooth fairy is true to my six year old. (Although I think she knows its her mother that puts the cash under her pillow) Do elected communist officals resign from the party or submit to the desires of the central committee ? They retain their party alliance and vote as per the wishes of the central party… As there is no legal opposition who can organise and bring to bear support they would be overwhelmed…. The use of a trained motivated Cadre to dominate the poltical process as prescribed by Lenin…


JC- READ THIS AND UNDERSTAND- THe PCC is not political. It manages the economy. There is no PCC side and then a government side. The two work together to run the country and the economy in a democratic fashion. There is general and near universal agreement in Cuba as regards the socialist economy. Very few want a return to capitalism and they may debate how best to implement socialist policies but there is no basic disagreement that socialism is and will be the way in Cuba.
YOU may disagree with how socialism works but it should be more than obvious to anyone with a brain that the Cuban people have few serious problems with preferring a socialist economy over a capitalist economy which DOES NOT WORK IN THE THIRD WORLD.

The Cubans outlawed the participation of political parties to avoid the corrupted electoral policies of countries inlike the U.S. and Jamaica where power and money dictate who will win and the parties nominate the candidates and NOT the people. The Ivory Coast does not have any such electoral system.

Wahalla: The Cubans thus outlawed poltical parties…. Even Reagan never tried this. This will never happen in Jamaica…Under the Ivorian old man they had repeasted elections which he won with equal equiminity as Fidel still does.. This constitution is nearly identical to what the Soviet Union defiend as Social Democrasy…. It prevents by law the formation of any parties except the PCC…And if history runs true to form the Ivorian experiment may be repeated…..

JC- Yep The Çubans outlawed political parties and people must run for office as individuals. You have a problem with that? Or do you prefer the corruption and fakery that passes for multi-party "democracy" in Jamaica in which the parties and not the people dictate policy?


JC: First sentence: TRUE. Cuba has a new trye of socialist economy that requires constant change and revision. Cuba is also under attack from the United States which wants to stop socialism in Cuba just as it has done in countries all over the world for about 100 years. That said the Cuban people through their elected officials can ask for change but admittedly that is unlikely since the vast majority support the socialist economy and the better life it has given them since they threw out capitalism. Those who want capitalism have either left 50 years ago or can apply for an exit visa to any country they chose Cuba has long had a policy of granting exit to any dissidents since they would be nothing but trouble if they were forced to stay as was the case in the Stalinist USSR.

Wahalla: Strange thing happened during the period opf special circumstance when Cubans could legally start a business.. I believe 20,000 business were started.. And once they succeeded beyond expectation…They were stymied by the PCC by the use of Taxes and regulations.. Why so that big Capitalists conglamerates could take over.. Rather than develop an indigenous enthraanueroal class.. They were taxed out in preference to allow others to come in and reap the reward.. Constiutional changes were made in order to alow the repatriations of revenue by big buiness. Rather than focus on internal investment generated from this emerging class. Big transnationals were allowed in.. Rather than small family owed hotels.. The monolith were let in. Changes included the loosening of the environmental laws, changes to allow the sale and ownership of land. And the government did actually sell land.. Why not let Cubans try a ting ? Because with economic success that would pull a class out of rations they would demand political change, that would allow furter development of private enterprise. No they rater let 49 % of the profit leave than develop internally. A memory of the identical thing happened in the Soviet Union…. The funny thing is that big hotels are more efficient and per bed room would have employed less people than small private hotel. Would have had high profit margins, a Mcdolisation of the tourism product..…. Instead a myth is fed that “the embargo” … Stuff and non sense.. The use of keeping people poor to maintain control..


JC - Bwoy- You have such a twisted view of reality.

There is no way an average Cuban could build and run a huge tourist hotel. No way.
What the average Cuban did was rent out his home to tourists and when this became a means to get far wealthier than his neighbors, the Cuban authorities taxed them or otherwise made sure that no one was allowed to get far richer that his neighbors and thus go back to the economic equality that plagues the Third World with 5% living in royal splendor and 50% + living in dire poverty.
No, the Cubans are not going back to the way things are in Jamaica.
Everyone will continue to share equally in what they have.
I know you disagree with this but that's the diffrence betwen you and I. You don't mind having half the world living in poverty and 12 millionh dying from starvation amidst plenty. I care about the poor. As Christ would have had us do.


JC: The members of the National Assembly do not merely go home and work at their regular jobs most of the year. They have to keep up on all the laws and other business passed by the full time sitting Council in full detail. When they meet twice a year, they are fully prepared to either ratify or veto anything passed by the sitting Council. They are at LEAST as efficient as any parliament or Congress in the world since they are fully in touch with the people they serve and not in some insulated government bubble out of touch as are politicians in Jamaica and the U.S.

Wahalla: And the PCC has oversight on the council. Thus the council will only pass economic and social subject to the approval of the unelected PCC the only poltical party that can be legally organised

JC- Still don't get it do you?
The PCC is NOT a political party
The PCC is not a political party
The PCC is not a political party.
The PCC is not a political party.
The PCC is not a political party.

They are represented in the government at a slightly higher rate than the general public who are not members of the PCC.


Walhalla
And the 15 % members of the assembley who the PCC are instructed what to vote and what to table. But there are no strategic alternatives. While the disparate other house members are left stranded.. A tactic as defined by Lenin to bring legality to a one party state….

JC- Don't get it do you?
If the PCC is represented at 15% or even 20% in the National Assembly , they can easily be overridden by the huge majority of non-members IF they so chose.
So your supposition is ludicrous on its face.

,
Walhalla:.
.The use of parliemtnary procedure to stop the formation.. .It is instructive that the same absrobtion of non PCC into the PCC post revolution. The same tactic was carried out by the Soviets, with procecution then absorbtion of the Social Democrats, socialist , the Mechivicks into the Bolshivicks

JC- You stil don't get it do you?
The development in Cuba in no way resembles that of the dictaorial non-democratic Soviet model. You have to be ignorant of history and economis to say what you do.

Walhalla,
.Jamaicans for all our faults have developed a disapproval of singular control….

JC-
Let me correct you. Jamaicans have developed a disapproval of the open appearance of singular control. The JLP and PNP differ only in very small ways and the history of the past 47 years of their rule should amply prove this as Jamaica degenerates.
There is in facto single (Capitalist) party rule in Jamaica. Both parties are dedicated to capitalism, lack of a democratic (bottom-up) electoral system with no though of changing the way things have always been done.
You are not even fooling yourself by saying Jamaicans are not living in more of a dictatorship that what you believe Cuba to be.
At work, your boss is a dictator and decides how much you get to work. In Cuba that sort of thing is decided by the Assemblies and the PCC. (80% people , 20% PCC)
In government in Jamaica the parties present the people for whom you get to vote. In Cuba the voters pick the people who will be their candidates and representaives AND they can recall them every six months unlike in Jamaica where you have to wait for the next election and THEN the party can put that same unsatisfactory candidate up for office. Not in Cuba.
Get It?

JC: Cuba has joint ventures with capitalist companies that serve the purposes of the Cuban people. They take in money that they would otherwise not have.
SWhen and if the U.S war against Cuba is over and Cuba's economy is allowed to grow as it will the Cuban government at that time and when it is to the benefit of Cubans, will buy out the foreign companies.

Wahalla : Re read the deals that the Cubans have signed…. And see what they actually say…oops you don’t read Spanish….



JC: If Jamaica chooses to go into a joint venture with foreign companies and it is the government that is in charge then I would suppose the money is used for necessary things and would be a good thing.
The problem with capitalist Jamaica is that chances are it is a private company and the money goes into very few pockets and not only not for the common good but it also expatriates whatever share the foreign company owns.
The other problem is that these are permanent deals and Jamaica is selling more and more of everything to get a few dollars that do not seem to make any difference in the worsening conditions in Jamaica. Neo-liberal economic policies of today's capitalism DO NOT WORK IN THE THIRD WORLD.

Wahalla: When Jamaica Government has done the same thing it has been between public owned companies this has been done in Coffee (marketing),tourism, power, mining and agriculture.. Exactly like Cuba…. Know what you are talking about… So then it is OK for Cuba and Not Jamaica ?????? Guess Neo Liberal does not work in Malaysia, Barbados, ect…. With high incomes.. What is the average wage in Cuba ?????

JC- If the Jamaican people benfit from the deals its government does then its a good deal. Neo-liberalism starves to death 12 million people per year. Sure , you can point out rare exceptions but the rule still applies and 12 million people per year under neo-liberal economies will continue to unnecessarily starve to death.
Nice system you support.
The per capita income in Cuba is below that of Jamaica BUT in Cuba they have free education, free health care, a guaranteed income,/Job a guaranteed place to live, a safe environment in which to raise your family, a guaranteed level of nutrition.
There is NO capitalist Third World country that can match those things so personal income means a whole different thing in Cuba.
As I have said before: If you ask Jamaicans if they would give up $20.00 US per week ( the difference in the per capita incomes between Jamaica and Cuba) for free health care, free education, a guaranteed home, job, income, nutritional standards, a SAFE ENVIRONMENT -NO GANG KILLINGS how many do you think would gladly pay that $20.00 per week?


JC: No it's not but it is economically sound since 51% goes to the Cuban people and it is 51% more than they would have if they did not make these deals..

Wahalla:…. and 49 % goes home.. Seems that Castro made worst deals than Venezuela made prior to Chavez… Nice to know that…. That is even worse than the Jamaican Goverment JV with Alcan in the 80’s…


JC: See above re money that Cuba gets that it wouldn't otherwise.

Wahalla: And this is support of the idea of private international investment. . Let foreign investors in so they can create opportunities. At the same time let locals compete. What the PCC has done was let in foreign companies and not let Cubans develop to compete. Either they don’t think Cubans are capable…. Note when the Jamaican Government tried this with the Chinese. There was a out cry. And the Jamaican worker out performed the much vaunted Chinese… I have faith in Jamaicans.. You don’t… The PCC obviously thinks Cuban cant develop.. Or there is an ulterior motive….What the difference is is that the Cuban PCC prevents private iniaitaves that could develop and retain more.. Why fear of a development of a entrepreneurial class…..The argument that the world Bank makes for their policy.. So JC agrees witth world bank arguments… But also agrees that Cubans should be treated by the PCC like the US treated the Iraq’s once they started building.. give the opportunities to forgiens.. I have faith in Jamaicans to develop ideas and buiesnes.. You don’t… Ob

JC- Cuba is socialist. You cannot understand the moral superiority of socialism and think that a system that kills people through poverty at the rate of tens of millions per year is preferable so trying to explain to you why entrepeneurial (capitalist) schemes are anathema to socialism is a waste of time.



JC: The U.S is in the process of getting finalization on oil contracts that would expatriate huge sums of money that previously stayed in Iraq and provided schools, hospitals, electricity, sewage , infrastructure that is now and that will be lacking for the foreseeable future in that wrecked country. If that;'s okay with you then by definition you are an imperialist. Same goes for all the bilkions the U.S steals from historic dealings in Latin America nd the Caribbean. How much of Jamaica's GDP goes to U.S banks for old loans?


Wahalla: Bull the deals that the Iraqi have in place are JV. Like in Cuba With a greater participation of the National oil companies during the production phase...... Note read the document. Do you understand that this means that the bids are open in public ?????... It states all production in Iraq is owned by the NIOC. They will chose those who extract it by commpetive open tender…Do you understand this concept or what it entails ??? Ask the people Sao Tome Principe.. They can explain it to you.. … currently only one new field has been found.. And who runs it. Not the US. But the Norwegians.. With 80 % going to the Kurdish govermetn once production starts depending on a number of technical criteria…. But by socialist logic that is worse than a mere 51%....As for the loans Jamaica took these loans.. We are morally responsible for them… Like it or not… That our leaders squandered it… Is interesting given that it was those who espoused the ideas of socialism used development money to buy consumer goods… And Cuba does repay its loans. When in the early 90’s Cuban debt was forgiven Jamaicans was not. … Ever wondered why ????? Could this forgiveness was tied into the development of the JV’s… The PCC plays the same debt game as the rest of the world…

JC- We shall see whether in the the wreck that is Iraq today, the Iraqi people will be doing as well as they were even under the murderous Saddam Hussein . They will be robbed of their oil under one pretext or another because that's what the invasion was all about.

JC: Sort of like your thinking which has more holes than the Albert Hall.

Wahalla: At least you admit I am thinking… Normally you get shrill and go name calling… But thank you for admitting I am capable of thought. This is against your usual attacks of eediat…



Walhalla,
I continued to read what you posted but have erased the last part of your post for brevity's sake and as usual have found a great deal of errors in fact
but given that you refuse to understand or acknowledge the basic facts of Cuban economic and governmental reality, I don't feel like wasting my time on debating with you.
It makes no sense to point out the same things over and over.

Suffice to say in closing that I support Cuba';s revolution because it takes care of the basic needs of the Cuban people. ALL the Cuban people.
I find it morally reprehensible, abhorrent to tout the capitalism you espouse because it impoverishes half the world's people and mercilessly kills tens of millions every year.

In the world today, millions of people starve to death, die of curable or preventable diseases, are homeless, victims of genocide, are unemployed for years or under employed, are illiterate and they ALl live in capitalist countries and mostly in the Third World (only 13 million in the very wealthy US live in dire poverty.

NOT ONE LIVES IN DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST CUBA.

Supporting capitalism which slaughters billions and at the same time denigrating a besieged socialist country which prevents deaths through poverty and inequality is what you do.
How do you reconcile that kind of thinking with Christian and just about all other teachings on morality ?

Doesn't it bother you at all to be so morally degenerate ?

Have you no love, no sympathy for the poor that you would continue their suffering?











[/quote]

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

First “I never paid any attention to any Communist party line as you do.”

Then

“I just cannot argue with your historic ignorance as regards the Moscow oriented (Stalinist) Communist parties of the world.”

First you assert I know something, then you flip flop and say I don’t… Are you related to Bruce Golding ? And is the PCC not the Communist Party of Cuba….?????


Please point out one inaquerasy I have stated ???? Go for the spelling… That the constitution of Cuba is similar to that of former Soviet Union. That the PCC allowed the Joint Ventures with Capitalists while stoping Cubans from opening small home based businesses.. Stopped home base restaurants while giving tax breaks to Hotel companies and letting them carry out 49% profits, while denying the same tax breaks to Cubans. Let private companies import without duty consumables while taxing any commercial import by Cubans ? And you want us to do that in Jamaica…. You may not like my interpretation but they are backed up by incident and president….

The fact of the matter the PCC is a political party. It has an ideology, it has a membership, it has a political goal it has a registered membership. It is a member of Socialist International or are they not a collection of political parties either…., it has the traditional socialist party song, the internationale… And it says so in the name.. Oh I am sorry you don’t read Spanish.. Partido means party… And to top it all Fidel calls it a party


“I continued to read what you posted but have erased the last part of your post for brevity's sake and as usual have found a great deal of errors in fact
but given that you refuse to understand or acknowledge the basic facts of Cuban economic and governmental reality, I don't feel like wasting my time on debating with you.
It makes no sense to point out the same things over and over.”



You asked for specific reasons of why I don’t think Castro’s version of Maxist- Leninism wont work in Jamaica any more than it did in the Soviet Union. I gave them.. I demonstrated that the Cuban Constitution is analogues to the Soviet type constitution both invest in the concept that a single party is legal… Given control of the commanding heights of the economy. This unelected party presents a single orthoxdy in matters realted to both social.. Both also propagate a myth that no parties was involved in the election process, both claiming that less than 20 % of the delegates at the assembly is members of the “PARTY”. Both by preventing other parties from orgainsing, prevented analysis of the dereguie polcies..\

And your opinions constitute facts only in your own mind….


Both once their was economic problems, loosened it hold on private enterprise.. And Yes I believe that tourism should be developed based not on the monothic large hotel complexes owned and operated by transnationals. Let a man rent a room or three in his house and develop. Let local entrapnuers have access to capital to build small B&B type hotels… Not as you…

My fundamental question is this have you ever even visited Cuba ????


Now let me tell you something else. The soviet union did give nominal support to the Spanish Government… reluctantly yes, but it did.. It did let its members butcher the members of the POUM on the streets of Barcelona; it did ship planes affectionately called ratas. It did demonstrate that its technoly was inferior to that of the Germans, it did send volunteers to Spain it did send military advisors….It did so in a slow manner while squeezing the republican government to give more political power to the PCE…, And during the course of t4 years absorbed … Don’t talk to me about the Spanish Civil War.. I asure you I know a lot more on the subject than you would ever believe…

And Cuba did vote against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan…… Mr Hill.. (Well Castro does mean hill in gallego)… must have done it when I wasn’t paying attention…


When is a racist joke not a rascist joke ? When its told by JC..
When is a African socialist not a socialist.. When JC says so..
When is a political party not a party.. Not when the General Sectary calls,it so but when JC says so…

Or does is Castro wrong to call it a party as well ????

Have you ever even visited Cuba????


Ah and at last the red herring attack.. Took you three days…. As predictable and repeatable… Here is my repeated moral compendium for you….. What have you done apart from living off the earnings of those you accuse of causing it… A pimp living off the immoral earnings of a prostitute and waxing about the morality of losses women is the moral equivalent…. I know read Znet, buy land in Jamaica and tell me I should not do the same thing… Hail St Johnny….. As a man who grew up in a house hold that earned less than 50 cents a day, I refuse to be lectured by Yankee who admits he lives in a country that caused my poverty….

So the Communist Party of Cuba is not a political party… Communism is not politics and the name does say other wise…

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
You pick on what YOU perceive as faults in the Cuban revolution and tout the advantages of the very capitalism that they had to throw out by force of arms and by risking their lives to do so. You act as if the healthcare, education, guaranteed housing , employment, nutritional standards and the provision of a safe environment in which to live and raise a family count for nothing in the face of Cuba not having political parties or as you see it having one as if the PNP and the JLP do not stand for the very same things: rule from the top ;politically and rule from the top economically.

Cuba is the ONLY poor Third World country to provide the basics of life for ALL-EACH AND EVERY person in the country and even free eye operations for tens of thousands of Jamaicans.

The United States is in large part responsible for many of the shortcomings in the Cuban economy yet you totally ignore this fact.

It took the U.S. just a few short years to beat Jamaica into turning out Manley using the same tactics it used in Chile, Nicaragua and many other countries around the world.
The Jamaicans ate up the false rumors spread by the CIA about the Manley government hoarding oil and rice and created artificial shortages by doing so. The CIA planted stories in the compliant Gleaner and other Jamaican media outlets as they have done elsewhere since post WWII. They shipped in thousands of weapons that plague Jamaica to this day.

It took just a few years for Jamaica to cave in and look where Jamaica is socially, economically and politically; worse off than in colonial times.

Cuba has been fighting the same war for over 47 years and all you can say is that they're screwed up because of the PCC and lack of capitalism.

To you it's not a question of whether the glass is 80% full but that it is 20% empty and then blame it on things that have nothing to do with Cuba's problems.

All you care about is capitalism: the very system that has impoverished about half the world, kills scores of millions through poverty, is making life hell for more and more Jamaicans every day.

Your stance is immoral, inhumane and detestable.
Your arguments are chock full of historic, economic and social errors of fact and you cling to them in the face of fact that is readily available. You twist what I say and I have no further desire to spend time correcting your deliberate bending of fact

More to the point, it is degrading to debate with you given your lack of compassion and hatred for the poor of the world.

Inasmuch as you refuse to accept history as fact, I will henceforth discuss your posts only in terms of morality which should be easy enough for even you to understand.


Lastly, a few questions:

Cuba has solved the problems of poverty that afflict billions in the Third World by adhering strictly to a socialist economy which spreads the goods and services available in an egalitarian way; regardless of a person's age, race , religion, sex, ability to work but with the sole criterion being that they are a human being and deserving of the basics of life.

Is it or is it not your position that no one deserves anything but what they can buy with the money they have or can get? That human beings are not entitled to share in the wealth of the Earth in an equal fashion.
And is it not your position that Jesus was wrong when he said that taking care of the poor should be THE priority?

You can comment or not on the first part of my post but let us clear up your moral position as regards humanity, life on this Earth and answer the questions contained in the paragraph above.