Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Lets see Cuba has a constitution that guarantees the oversight of the economy by a single political party (sorry group of line dancers).. South Korea has a constitution that gives oversight of the country to a single party… The party that has over sight has the name communist party…. Cuba has a theoretical direct elected assembly, so has North Korea.. The constitution of both countries out law all political parties except the communist party. The assembly in Cuba has theoretical control oeve a council of ministers so does the North Koreans… The communist party of both country is based on marxist lenisism.. Both political parties cooperated with the previous regime prior to taking power.. The Japanese in the case of Korea.. Both countries have been ruled by a single family with power passing to blood relatives for more than a generation.. Both countries prevent locals from starting businesses but have let private companies take over some matters of the commanding heights os the economy…. I cant send a electrical goods to either country if I have a family member.. It would be taken over by the government….Both countries claim to be fighting the US… and one country is a dictatorship ?????????? Homeric !!! The difference that makes North Korea a dictatorship is the fact that power passed to a son not a brother….

North Korea came into the thread a demonstration of another successful example of a socialist paradise…..


So the model proposed Marxism Leninism as defined by the Cuba constitution is only good for countries the size of Cuba and Jamaica 2.6 – 11 million…. The Bajan successful model wont work in Jamaica because Barbadoes is too small.. Well who was it who said that only Cuba had eliminated the effects of poverty ????? I presented Barbados…. How bout Trinidad then ??? Are they big enough ???? Then the Cuban model wont work in Nigeria because Cuba is too small…. And does not take into account the different..

I wont even try to explain Nigeria to you.. “yu guh spoil brotha” as they say on the streets of Lagos…. As they say in Nigeria “yu caa chap suya wid no fli”… vBut you have never chap Suya now have you....how bout some 404.????. I would like to see you go explain your revolutionary alternatives to alleviate poverty in Nigeria to Nigerians… plentiwahalla…

How is it I have told you that mixed economies is the future… Like the economies of Scandinavia….Like Barbados does…. With government taxing and distributing and wealth being developed by private iniative.. Governments are poor at creating wealth…… Old Menguistu could not either….

Ah labour creates wealth… No the congealment of labour is wealth….….So if that was the case greater labour would create greater wealth.. Given that case then the Cubans must be very wealthy given there is zero unemployment since 1960’s…

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
The quote from my previous post:
"You are a tout for capitalism falsely claiming that it creates wealth.
Labor creates wealth.
Capitalism is just a means of distribution of that wealth that gives an inordinate and unfair share to the owners , the already rich, the already powerful the relative few and immiserates the many.

Answer my question: what is capitalism's solution to the widespread and endless poverty it creates?


Answer my question, stop evading the central issue."


ANSWER THE QUESTION.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

I keep repeating....... Private iniative creates the wealth... And then goverment tax the income and provides the services.. ie health care, education ect. And I dont tout capitalism, I merely have a high regard for "trying a ting"

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep repeating....... Private iniative creates the wealth... And then goverment tax the income and provides the services.. ie health care, education ect. And I dont tout capitalism, I merely have a high regard for "trying a ting" </div></div>


Private initiative?
The wealth that private initiative creates goes into very private pockets and that wealth cannot be created without the labor of the people who do not get to share in that wealth
LABOR creates wealth and that wealth should be equitably shared so that all can have the things that makes a good life.

"Government taxes the income and provides services?

This statement would be funny if it weren't so absurd.
How then do tens of millions in the Third World die from starvation and preventable/curable diseases, go illiterate all their lives, go without medical, dental and mental healthcare?

The reason is that under your theory governments "tax and provide" when the reality is that they do no such thing, that the top 1-5% of the populations in these countries control not only a disproportionate share of the wealth but PREVENT the government from either taxing them very much or structuring the economy as in the U.S so that people are not paid a living wage.

"I merely have a high regard for 'trying a ting'."

Yes "a ting" that has impoverished half the world and which in a couple of thousand years has failed miserably to provide for a huge number of the world's most vulnerable people. It hasn't worked because it is based on greed and selfishness that is enforced by laws enacted by the wealthy for the wealthy. Not only has it not worked but it shows no sign of ever working, of ever reforming to the point that it can provide for all.

Conversely, Cuba's democratic socialist system has, with limited resources such as can be found in many other poor Third World countries and under a 47 year economic attack from the United States which costs the Cuban people billions per year, managed to provide that which capitalism has not, will not , cannot provide to people living under capitalism in the Third World.

It should be more than apparent to you that it is well past time to try "a ting" that works for all the people and not just the very few rich.

The unique combination of electoral democracy and economic democracy that works for the Cuban people can work for the people of Jamaica and any other poor Third World country and if the Cuban example is not what is wanted we now have other examples of novel democratic and socialist economic programs doing well and very popular in Venezuela.

The very undemocratic electoral system in Jamaica coupled with the very undemocratic capitalist economy has failed Jamaicans for as long as it has existed.

Time for a new "ting"

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Private initiative?
The wealth that private initiative creates goes into very private pockets and that wealth cannot be created without the labor of the people who do not get to share in that wealth
LABOR creates wealth and that wealth should be equitably shared so that all can have the things that makes a good life.

"Government taxes the income and provides services?

This statement would be funny if it weren't so absurd.
How then do tens of millions in the Third World die from starvation and preventable/curable diseases, go illiterate all their lives, go without medical, dental and mental healthcare?

Wahalla: There is nothing simple or funny about taxation. A simple solution but extremely difficult to implement. And now you are saying goverments are inefficent at collecting tax which is essentially one of the reason for its existance.. Now that is an intruiging concept.. Privtise taxation.. The Romans did that....

The reason is that under your theory governments "tax and provide" when the reality is that they do no such thing, that the top 1-5% of the populations in these countries control not only a disproportionate share of the wealth but PREVENT the government from either taxing them very much or structuring the economy as in the U.S so that people are not paid a living wage.

"I merely have a high regard for 'trying a ting'."

Wahalla: Then tax em…. The Japanese do exactly this…. The Norwegians, the Swedens, The British, the Bajans….They all have much more efficient government agencieas…. Are you implying that us people with melanin are incapable of doing this? All we can do is copy a system that is about to do what I suggest ??????

Yes "a ting" that has impoverished half the world and which in a couple of thousand years has failed miserably to provide for a huge number of the world's most vulnerable people. It hasn't worked because it is based on greed and selfishness that is enforced by laws enacted by the wealthy for the wealthy. Not only has it not worked but it shows no sign of ever working, of ever reforming to the point that it can provide for all.

Wahalla: Again a man who has never lived in the third world and never been poor cannot possibly speak for the third world unless he suffers from serious issues of narcissism. Some one who touts Kamunism/ socialism seems to simply think that tell us what to do will present a convincing argument. At the center of a lot of the problems of the third world is the fact that the government took over a lot of the business post independence in a frenzy of optimistic nationalistion. .. ie mining, power, energy tourism and lacked the capacity to run it as a business. Had they run the business efficiently there would have been wealth generated. Not only did they run these badly they destroyed the proto small business by developing ineffiece. It is the story from Gabon to Ghana. At the time of the down term in commodity prices, the government lacked the ability or capability to react and change.. Instead they poured resources from more profitable sectors into propping up no the social services rather the inefficient businesses… How ? look at the taxation levelled at the private businesses and even low level government workers.. What does this go to do propping up the government business????. The extra ordinary thing is even given the level of poverty, if the revenue generated by tax was not directed to the propping up of government business the issues of health care, education would have been long solved…. Even Jamaica this is the case. As local tax is used to refiance locally generated bonds, which were used to prop up government run instirtuions…. Where did the loans that we all know about go to ????? After the corruption the remainder went to propping up these government run business…. And these have now to be repaid. An extraordinary thing is that businesses that are run by the government cannot be allowed to go bust. The governments Had these loans been taken by the government and passed onto private institutions/ individuals the default rate would be lower.. How do I know the Gramin bank proves this…. Look at Jamentel long forgotten, a small telecoms company privately owned, well run… took over by the government then bam company debts beyond my wildest dreams… and the government still has to cover these debts because they simply cannot default…. The same thing happended in tourism, shipping, petroleum refining, (extra ordinary given that we exported refined products to the US , when the government took over, yet with all its investment we now import) power, agriculture. In every case where governments attempt to generate wealth has been an abysmal failure. And local debt accumulated has to be serviced from taxes…. Now the telecoms industry has been diversified and opened to competiton, communication technology has underminded the concept[t of mono And you want government to run businesses????



Conversely, Cuba's democratic socialist system has, with limited resources such as can be found in many other poor Third World countries and under a 47 year economic attack from the United States which costs the Cuban people billions per year, managed to provide that which capitalism has not, will not , cannot provide to people living under capitalism in the Third World.


Wahalla: Castro and his family have been in power for fifty years. Mi Prima Mariela … who is now being groomed to take over from her papi…admits that the Cuban economy is inefficient….That the people look too much to the government for services… Seems she agrees with me. Her father talks of inefficient factories and agriculture. In efficient factories means one thing they lose money, they don’t generate wealth and as thye are state own they cannot be closed so good money chases bad and diverts money from that would other wise be used for better things.. she makes a point that too often people think as you do the alternative to the Marxist-Lenist control systems in place in Cuba is capitalism. This is not the case.
How do I know this.. Znet posted an article on this subject, a rehash of a Newsweek article. Having lived worked and run business legally in embargoed countries this claim of economic loss due to an embargo that does nto entail the sinking of ships is such a fallacy.. There are thousands of middle men for a 5% mark up who would sell materials from the US. Besides there are alternative sources for 99.5 % of the other materioals.. Except possibly American designed arms. Cuba did not buy American arms post 61 did it??? I do know fidel did fancy himself as a bit of a Thomson submachine gun expert after all!. Cuba did an extraordinary thing economically; it shifted its trading partners from the US to the Soviet block. Its main exports were granted protected status and guaranteed markets….As soon as the markets were no longer guaranteed stopped the Cuban economy like any one was destroyed.. The extraordinary thing was the cost of Cuban labour was cheaper than Chinese yet cannot compete with Chinese…. Why because it products were nto efficient to buy by its trade partners. They looked else where that offered products cheaper.. If you insist on repeating I reserve the right to informing.

It should be more than apparent to you that it is well past time to try "a ting" that works for all the people and not just the very few rich.

Wahalla: I and all Jamaicans refuse to hand over our innovative nature to a goveremts who have proven that they are incapable of increasing wealth. Oh they are capable of giving health care, education. (However there is now a question that is interesting and is worth discussing. The concept that Microsoft has populrised, a private organaistion running a certification system of education that is accepted as a standard. A minority of transnationals have for years been running similar schemes that are considered superior to those that are offered by traditional education systems) ….. Govemements can legislate and tax. That’s what they are good at.. The Cubans according to your Znet article survive by pilfering.. It goes against my grain. From 1989 to 99 the Cuban allowed ots people to try a ting. And they succeeded.. . It seems that the Cubans are now going to let its people try a ting again because of the inefficient loss making factory..

The unique combination of electoral democracy and economic democracy that works for the Cuban people can work for the people of Jamaica and any other poor Third World country and if the Cuban example is not what is wanted we now have other examples of novel democratic and socialist economic programs doing well and very popular in Venezuela.

Wahalla: Ah well led to a moribund economy, with as low growth as Jamaica since 89…. They were such an success that they invited Transnationals in to take over the commanding heights of the economy, while taxing the locals out of existence..

The very undemocratic electoral system in Jamaica coupled with the very undemocratic capitalist economy has failed Jamaicans for as long as it has existed.

Wahalla: And you are offering us a political system that has an economy overseen by a unelected single family for more than fifty years.. Or is the beard not the General Secretary of the partido communista de cuba ???? (Course I know now that it is not a political party despite having the word party in their name, (you told me so) I have come to the conclusion they are society of flat earthers.) Its dictatorship ala North Korea…. Not for Jamaica…. And no I don’t offer what’s been in the past, rather I greater tax burden on income..
Time for a new "ting"

Wahalla: I agree for Cuba and so does mi primo Raul.. But Cuba is not my concern; let em do what they want. Just dont export it to Jamaica. If you want it in your home country run wid it.. And please institute in Kanada as well….. But it is nice to know there is agreement between cousins don’t you think….Raul wants to let his people try a ting again….. That is the new ting.. let the people try ah ting endorsed by Raul and Mariela cousins of Wahalla! If they are looking for an adaptation of Chinese model, they will retain the PCC as the ruling party and let private inaitve generate wealth… Then do something extraordinary.. Tax em! The receipe ala Wahalla…..

I find it astonishing and refreshing that Malaysia own Lotus, oil tools, Ducati, British Steel is now owned by Indians, the Chinese own Rover , owns cloth mills in Lanchesire, would own one of the seven sisters if typically you and your country men were not such inverbrate rascists.. And they run em for profit….

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
Again you cite statistics that disprove what you claim.
The businesses and "successes" a few Third World countries that enrich a very few and impoverish the majority of these countries cannot honestly be called successes for mankind. Citing Japan, Sweden Britain and (hahaha) Barbados when the BIG problems are in the Third World countries with large populations is just an empty argument

Capitalism, individual enterprise which employs the many at below survival wages while those at the top live in selfish splendor does nothing for the welfare of the world.

I asked you for the solution to the poverty and inequality created and maintained by capitalism and you say it is better taxation of the corporations and the wealthy to provide the necessary money.

That is a bad joke.

Corporations have made themselves untaxable by owning the people who are "elected" to run the governments under which they operate and having them pass laws that give them tax-free status.

In a system based on the accumulation of money, money can and does corrupt completely. You say that efficient taxation is "difficult to implement" when the reality is that it is IMPOSSIBLE when those who need to be taxed write the tax laws.
What you propose is a cruel joke.
Why not just say that Santa Claus or God will provide?

If it is not apparent to you that capitalism does not work for the great majrity of the planet's inhabitants then it is only because you do not want to see it.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".


Lastly, I wrote:


Conversely, Cuba's democratic socialist system has, with limited resources such as can be found in many other poor Third World countries and under a 47 year economic attack from the United States which costs the Cuban people billions per year, managed to provide that which capitalism has not, will not , cannot provide to people living under capitalism in the Third World.

To which you replied:


Wahalla: Castro and his family have been in power for fifty years. Mi Prima Mariela … who is now being groomed to take over from her papi…admits that the Cuban economy is inefficient….That the people look too much to the government for services… Seems she agrees with me. Her father talks of inefficient factories and agriculture. In efficient factories means one thing they lose money, they don’t generate wealth and as thye are state own they cannot be closed so good money chases bad and diverts money from that would other wise be used for better things.. she makes a point that too often people think as you do the alternative to the Marxist-Lenist control systems in place in Cuba is capitalism. This is not the case.
How do I know this.. Znet posted an article on this subject, a rehash of a Newsweek article. Having lived worked and run business legally in embargoed countries this claim of economic loss due to an embargo that does nto entail the sinking of ships is such a fallacy.. There are thousands of middle men for a 5% mark up who would sell materials from the US. Besides there are alternative sources for 99.5 % of the other materioals.. Except possibly American designed arms. Cuba did not buy American arms post 61 did it??? I do know fidel did fancy himself as a bit of a Thomson submachine gun expert after all!. Cuba did an extraordinary thing economically; it shifted its trading partners from the US to the Soviet block. Its main exports were granted protected status and guaranteed markets….As soon as the markets were no longer guaranteed stopped the Cuban economy like any one was destroyed.. The extraordinary thing was the cost of Cuban labour was cheaper than Chinese yet cannot compete with Chinese…. Why because it products were nto efficient to buy by its trade partners. They looked else where that offered products cheaper.. If you insist on repeating I reserve the right to informing."


Read what I wrote. Read what you posted. It totally avoids addressing what I posted and means nothing in the discussion.

Socialist Cuba has done what you through your evasive and ineffective argument have admitted the capitalist Third World has not, will not, cannot do and that is provide for all the basic needs of all its people.

Contrary to what you claim, I am not telling anyone to do anything. I am pointing out the facts.
People can make up their own minds.

"inverbrate rascist" (sic) ????

Okay how's this...... baby killer.

You accept and tout a system that has millions of babies dying of starvation with bloated bellies too weak to even cry as they die.
You might not let it happen right in front of you but when it happens millions of times a year out of your sight, you have no problem with it at all.

Not only that but you want it to continue rather than live in an egalitarian society where the primary rights are to the basic of life and not the amassing of money.

I just can't find a name bad enough for what you are.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

So I can help you understand what I wrote….. I know you are a yankee and wwent to a Yankee school so must be less well educated than those who experienced socialist education..


You wrote

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Conversely, Cuba's democratic socialist system has, with limited resources such as can be found in many other poor Third World countries and under a 47 year economic attack from the United States which costs the Cuban people billions per year, managed to provide that which capitalism has not, will not , cannot provide to people living under capitalism in the Third World.</div></div>

Wahalla: Castro and his family have been in power for fifty years. Mi Prima Mariela … who is now being groomed to take over from her papi…

this was to demonstrate teh fallasy of :::: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Conversely, Cuba's democratic socialist system </div></div>(Fidel, brother, daughter. A system that simply passes power between families is what again ?????)


Wahalla: admits that the Cuban economy is inefficient….That the people look too much to the government for services… Seems she agrees with me. Her father talks of inefficient factories and agriculture. In efficient factories means one thing they lose money, they don’t generate wealth and as thye are state own they cannot be closed so good money chases bad and diverts money from that would other wise be used for better things.. she makes a point that too often people think as you do the alternative to the Marxist-Lenist control systems in place in Cuba is capitalism. This is not the case.
How do I know this.. Znet posted an article on this subject, a rehash of a Newsweek article. Having lived worked and run business legally in embargoed countries this claim of economic loss due to an embargo that does nto entail the sinking of ships is such a fallacy.. There are thousands of middle men for a 5% mark up who would sell materials from the US.

note the reference to Znet.. But the above disproves <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“under a 47 year economic attack from the United States” </div></div>

Hope that demonstrates I did anwer your reply directly and demonstrated that your assertion was incorected as evidenced by an admission on the part of Supreme leaders brother his state run factories are inefficent so is his crowning success agriculture.... And they are thinking of doing what their cousin advocates...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla: "Znet posted an article on this subject, a rehash of a Newsweek article".

You must be mistaken. Znet reprints NOTHING from Newsweek.

Please do a SEARCH of Znet, find the article and post it for me so I can respond to your nonsense.

Some Cuban enterprises are run inefficiently therefore the system that feeds, clothes, houses, educates , provides medical care and a safe family environment for all is a failed society.


On the other hand in Jamaica and the U.S.where every business is run efficiently and where millions are hungry, homeless, illiterate, sick and without medical care and risk their lives going out into a city at night are raving successes.

What nonsense.

Your idea that Fidel's daughter is going to inherit the leadership of the country is sheer lunacy and demonstrates either a lack of knowledge of how Poder Popular works or a deliberate avoidance of an honest discussion of the relative states of democratic electoral systems in Jamaica and Cuba.

As regards the effects of the U.S embargo:

http://www.iacenter.org/Cuba/cuba_embargo.htm

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/132/2/151.pdf

Just Google "economic effects of the U.S embargo on Cuba" or anything similar and you'll get page after page of the damage it has done to Cuba.
Your denial could be just plain ignorance of the facts but more than likely just an attempt to denigrate the great human progress Cuba has made because of your hatred of humanity.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

I had a look at one of your links … And Jermyn Palmer once told me that because things are written don’t make them true… He also told me it is a trait of the semi literate who simply use this as a justification of an argument…

Oh and from Znet the Quote You posted it in the International forum::::
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Mariela Castro, the daughter of the acting president, and tipped as a future leader.</div></div>



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“As U.S. pharmaceutical and biotechnology firmsmerged with European companies, Cuban physicians had to cope with a progressive lack of critically needed medicines, diagnostic tools, vaccines, and medical machinery that had previously been available or affordable (3, 7). Since 1975, approximately 50% of all newly patented drugs distributed worldwide have been produced by U.S. drug companies. These drugs are unavailable in Cuba unless they are sold by an intermediary, often at prohibitive cost (7). The 1996 Helms–Burton law further discouraged foreign investors in the health care industry from contemplating even limited trade with Cuba by threatening non-U.S. intermediaries.” </div></div>



Wahalla: I actually wonder if this lady ever heard of the term or understand the concept tender process where you ask traders to submit bids to supply and take multiple suppliers. The Iranians, Libyans, and Sudanese do this ?????.Or generic copied drugs produced in India, Brazil and China.. Literally weeks after they come on the market…. Europeans Drug companies usual do a deal to limit the import into core markets…..

Also did you not tell me repeatedly that People Power would provide all health care.. Is this not contradictory requiring foreign investment in health care... Having been indoctrinated with the US laws on embargos the fact of the matter, materials designed and manufactured out side the US may be imported by non US subsidies…..?????? But then Jamaicans are told not to laugh at me for point.


Ah


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“Food was obviously scarce in bodegas, or grocery stores, as was the technologically advanced machinery that the Cubans had been so proud to display 15 years before. The median weight of children and adults
has decreased dramatically because the amount of food supplied at workplaces and schools has been substantially reduced (3). Several public health catastrophes on the island have been directly attributed to the U.S. embargo (8 –10). In 1992 and 1993, more than 50 000 cases of optic and peripheral neuropathy occurred. This epidemic was attributed to reduced nutrient intake, which was caused by food shortages.” </div></div>


Wahalla: So Johnny, the Cubans have feed their people how often you have told me this. And obviously what does a inefficient agriculture mean “50 000 cases of optic and peripheral neuropathy” …. …And food shortages in Cuba ?????? The above paragraph does seem to contradict your standard assertion …. This is blamed on the embargo ?????? Since I don’t have access to the source papers I cannot access their information, I have long learned to read academic papers with criticality. (That is how scientific research is done) …. This assertion is tragic . Since this kind of decrease in weight is a public health indicator, it would suggest that there was a failure in nutrition. However this points to the again in 1992 to 1993 was two years post the soviet bloc collapse.

The paper was written when ???? What happened in 1994 ???? Was this not the decade of special economic circumstance where people could try ah ting ?????? Seems that trying a ting saved the starving children of Cuba..oops “cases of optic and peripheral neuropathy “ …. Suddenly there were markets where food can be sold or bartered…..

Man as a boy I loved markets days.. to this day I love walking in markets in Africa and the so called 3rd world watching the colour, trade and laughter. ( I tell people to laugh.. Even at me)... Ah let the government feed em all. . ….. Could this mean that Cuba much vaunted economic success prior to 90 was a result of being carried by the Soviets . Wonder what their debt to the soviets were ????? Well interesting use of the term bodega.

What ever happened to the diary industry skills that Jamaica passed onto Cuba in the 70-80’s. Yep we passed onto them, the skills of artifical insemination, three local breeds, the Jamaican Black and Red Pole and a dairy breed that ????

Lack of dairy products could be attributed to cause”cases of optic and peripheral neuropathy”d. . I recall a hurricane in the 70’s where Cuba sent some condensed milk to Jamaica.. oops that was made from feed stock from the Eastern European.. And Cuba wanted to develop a local dairy industry….. We Jamaicans gave em the skills…. Sorry not every thing comes out of the US… Some thing s does come out of Jamaica… We are capable people….


But I am from the school of thought there I was also thinking that on of the causes of optic and peripheral neuropathy in infants was attributed to the replacement of human lactation with substitutes .. now what ever happened to the campaigns in the 60’s in Cuba to convince mothers not to go to substitutes as they came from the US ????


So effectively this paper is saying that children were ndernourished in Cuba in 1992-1993…. And that even though there are generic drugs from India China and Brazil Cuba cant get it. At the worst case that Cuban could buy drugs by bidding competitively though middle men… Mark ups 5% plus FOB costs at a Freeport is a standard mark up, with discounts of purchases made above $ 250,000.00 …..

That despite getting the skills from Jamaica in the 70’s to develop a dairy industry, the Cubans did not do it. And there seems to be a disconnect somehow…

Interesting statistic in the amount of food produced in Cuba on state farms as compared to those produced by collectives and private farms…. But its just propaganda, this is not inefficient agriculture. Opps that the fragmentary nature of implementation of Marxist economy theory in Cuba.. Tehre is still privately grown crops by Cubans who " try ah ting".

And yes I understood the Cuban idea of people’s power, it is nearly identical to the former soviet system and the system of the North Koreans where candidates are directly elected… In fact apart from the languages there is little difference)They act as an oversight to a council of ministers. Twice a year. But a group of unelected party (sorry a cadre of unelected people trained in Marxism poltical philoshy, Lenin interpretation and implementation of Marx and in Jose Marti poetry..


This is interesting I could be a member as I seemed to have studied both Marx economics and Lenins intretation and grew up being taught both Cervantes and the poetry of Jose Marti ,my favourite poem is “Murella”. You did tell me that you don’t follow the constitutions of other communists unlike me. And my understanding to join the non political PCC you need to have studied other interpretation of Marx…. You don’t seem to be qualified to to be a member….

Now I could interpretere further with critical thinking, but you will simply defend it by telling people not to laugh at me


For some one who so readily uses the term “Baby Killer especially as an insult to any one who disagrees with you …. Seems however you support a system of government that has led to “more than 50 000 cases of optic and peripheral neuropathy” ..

You still telling Jamaicans to stop laughing ? You want to stop non Yankees from laughing ???? You want to take joy out the lifes of Jamaicans????

[Hugo]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I can help you understand what I wrote….. I know you are a yankee and wwent to a Yankee school so must be less well educated than those who experienced socialist education..


You wrote

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Conversely, Cuba's democratic socialist system has, with limited resources such as can be found in many other poor Third World countries and under a 47 year economic attack from the United States which costs the Cuban people billions per year, managed to provide that which capitalism has not, will not , cannot provide to people living under capitalism in the Third World.</div></div>

Wahalla: Castro and his family have been in power for fifty years. Mi Prima Mariela … who is now being groomed to take over from her papi…

this was to demonstrate teh fallasy of :::: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Conversely, Cuba's democratic socialist system </div></div>(Fidel, brother, daughter. A system that simply passes power between families is what again ?????)


Wahalla: admits that the Cuban economy is inefficient….That the people look too much to the government for services… Seems she agrees with me. Her father talks of inefficient factories and agriculture. In efficient factories means one thing they lose money, they don’t generate wealth and as thye are state own they cannot be closed so good money chases bad and diverts money from that would other wise be used for better things.. she makes a point that too often people think as you do the alternative to the Marxist-Lenist control systems in place in Cuba is capitalism. This is not the case.
How do I know this.. Znet posted an article on this subject, a rehash of a Newsweek article. Having lived worked and run business legally in embargoed countries this claim of economic loss due to an embargo that does nto entail the sinking of ships is such a fallacy.. There are thousands of middle men for a 5% mark up who would sell materials from the US.

note the reference to Znet.. But the above disproves <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“under a 47 year economic attack from the United States” </div></div>

Hope that demonstrates I did anwer your reply directly and demonstrated that your assertion was incorected as evidenced by an admission on the part of Supreme leaders brother his state run factories are inefficent so is his crowning success agriculture.... And they are thinking of doing what their cousin advocates...


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Wahalla you waste valuable time to argue with this senseless nincompoop Miss Johnny? Shame on, you treat him like the leper he is, he will eventually quit the site.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Taino Taxman,

WE have pretty much exhausted the topic with you finally having to admit that capitalism has no answer to the poverty it causes and which poverty causes the deaths of scores of millions EVERY year through starvation, preventable and curable disease, economic wars, dangerous working conditions etc.

Oh you had an answer which was for the capitalist countries to tax more efficiently. Taxing things like the underground economies in which mainly poor people struggle to survive.
Consider the sheer lunacy of your taxation to end starvation idea.
About half the world and specifically the very poor of the world, those dying by the tens of millions FROM poverty live on $1-2.00 US per day. How much are you going to tax them? How is anyone going to collect it?
Secondly, the only places this works is in the DEVELOPED countries, the advanced social "democracies" mainly ns Western Europe where there is a sufficient economic base for enough taxes to be collected.
It cannot be done in places like Botswana, Rwanda and the other sub-Saharan economic disaster countries where the problems of poverty are killing so many.

You really don't have any answers under capitalism to the misery CAUSED by capitalism.
if the answers existed they would have been tried by now.
The sad truth is that capitalism is a dog-eat-dog vicious competitive economic system that enforces greed and dooms those scores of millions to horrible deaths.

The truth is that in the world today there is enough of all the things requisite for a good life for all the people on the planet but in the poor Third World only in Cuba are there no homeless, no deaths from starvation, no or few deaths from preventable or curable disease , no illiteracy, a social safety net and a society in which children are protected and cared for above all.

So you can post all the drivel like the obsolete statistics from 1993-94 Cuba and your grasping-at-straws tax idea to try to change the subject but we have really settled the question.

The Cubans have developed political , economic and social systems that they overwhelmingly support.
You views are of no significance especially in light of your lack of effective argument.
The Cuban people are fulfilling their own destiny.

Now let's see how Jamaica does operating with the wonders of "trying a ting" , your brilliant new taxation scheme which will solve all the problems of poverty and the capable and inspiring political leadership of the PNP and the JLP.

Then again why change anything when Jamaica is doing so well?

What poor or working poor Jamaican in his/her right mind would trade all the benefits of "trying a ting" capitalism that they have and which makes life in Jamaica a paradise on Earth with guaranteed healthcare, education, employment, housing, nutritional sufficiency, a safe place to raise a family and never, as a single mother having to worry about being able to provide for her children?

No, just because capitalism has forced 1/2 the world to live in poverty without hope for ever changing doesn't mean that things won't get better.

Once the new JLP government adopts your magnificently thought out tax plan, I know we'll all be amazed at how much better life will be for all Jamaicans.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What poor or working poor Jamaican in his/her right mind would trade all the benefits of "trying a ting" capitalism that they have and which makes life in Jamaica a paradise on Earth with guaranteed healthcare, education, employment, housing, nutritional sufficiency, a safe place to raise a family and never, as a single mother having to worry about being able to provide for her children?
</div></div>

I suggest the following subsets of Jamaicans would agree wiht me...Every single poor Jamaican person who has emigrated since 1919. (number of Jamaicans who went to the Soviet Union to live 1.. Guess that demonstrates our disdain for a single unelected party having over all control of the economy).... Every single person who tried a ting rather than read Znet and repeat the prose of the unquestioning????....How many poor JAMAICANS migrated to Cuba since 59 to get what you offered health care, rations and education....as opposed to countries where they can "try a ting".. I know single mothers who chose to migrate.. They didnt chose the dictatorship of North Korea, Cuba, the soviet union or similar communist countries with single unelected cadre overseaing the economy... they chose countries where they can guh wuk.. to try a ting... all those cubans seem to prefer the opertunity to try a ting... not to get all the socil care offered in cuba.... I wonder if the average income of Cubans who left Cuba was higher than Johnny CAkes income....?????

Note again I offer the tax solution to Jamaicas problems.. Not Botswana.. or Rwanda both places different solutions.... Nigeria, having lived in the place I would offer a more complex solution, one proposed to me by a Nigerian.. It was not Castro.. Like I say the attemopts to offer Maxism / socialism/ communism was rejected in Africa.. Even the Angolans who paid the Cubans to Guard Cheveron instialtions rejected Castroism..

Even Mandela , hero to all and sudry,model for a statute besides Napier in London and the admirer of the Cuban stale mate at Cuito.. What did he do when he was in power ???? institue a program of nationalisation, hand over control of the economy to the SACP ??? Hell no.. He encouraged black buisness, reconciliation and looked to maximise tax base... . So Johhny Cakes knows better than Mandela ?????. Mandela seems to subscribed to "Cuba much admired, never copied"

cant waut till cousin raul reforms Cuba ala Znet article you posted to see how much "try a ting" the Cubans will get to do..But the private farms in Cuba produce more per hectare than those efficently run state eneterprises....

Garvey was a Jamican with some ideas. oh I forgot you assert that Jamaicans cant come up with ideas.. Thought Garvey could??? or was his melainin content not as high as his contemporary Marti ????? .... He called for health care, education free, HE actually called for more tax on income, loans to poor JAMAICANs as opposed to those with skin a kin to yours, black private enterpriese and the solutions to Black masses was their own iniative.. Are you saying you know better than Garvey what was good for Jamaicans.. Are you say Marti not Garvey ?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> o you can post all the drivel like the obsolete statistics from 1993-94 Cuba and your grasping-at-straws tax idea to try to change the subject but we have really settled the question.

</div></div>

Johnny you posted a link as evidence, you calling a quote from one of your posted links drivel.????..... I simply quoted from the Link you posted and discredited what it asseted...Are you now saying what you posted is obsolete ???? I concur the Cuban revolution system became obsolete in 1963....

/yes /i agree we have settled the question, and I repeatedly demonstrated succicently with evidence that the failure of the Cuban system of goverment, with their economy by a group of morris dancers and ballet dancers and it is inappropriate nature for Jamaica. And all you do is repeat your opions which I might add I have repeatedly discredited. And you have resorted to Name CAlling" Taino Tax Man" and to the use of expletives. .As always demonstrating unsustainable postion.. Is name calling not a standard practice among Southern Yankees when confronted with inteligence ??? What next call me articulate ????/

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Secondly, the only places this works is in the DEVELOPED countries, the advanced social "democracies" mainly ns Western Europe where there is a sufficient economic base for enough taxes to be collected.
</div></div>


Ah but the Bajans have done it, the South Koreans, the Taiwanese, the chinese, teh Malaysians are doing it ! Even the Indians are now doing this, freeing their economy ot allow individual iniative.. And redistribute by taxation... Waht is the Indian rationailsed GDP when they open their eonomy to private iniative.. Lower than Jamaica or high than Jamaica ??? What was teh Chinese ??? The Cubans tried it in the time you called obsolete.... And Raul seems to be trying it again... Ah I see if the Son and Grandson of a plataion ownever reccomends it it becomes a receipe for victory.....

Ah so from this you are saying that there is not sufficent resources to ensure that there is a sustainable economy in Jamaica ???? That was a historical precedent I already highlighted the effect of the nationalistion of peasants land in the Ukraine

I am discreiding that, Jamaica is not a poor country and in fact its GDP most of Europe before WWII, it was certainly better than the economy of Spain in the 1950's ... Are you thus implying Jamaicans cannot grow their economy ?????? But white Europeans can grow theirs ?????

Peice of advise from some one who has read marx and Marti.... Dont insult a master debater, dont debate with a master insulter.... And yep your first reaction will to be correct my English....Use expletives with subtlty and not as a defense....

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
Again you are arguing off the point.
I asked what are capitalisms answers to the scores of millions dying of starvation and preventable and curable diseases and you come back with ????
No answer.

Under a socialist economy Cuba provides the basics of a good life for ALL.
No one starves, is illiterate, goes without healthcare, is homeless etc. etc. etc.

Under capitalism in the Third World scores of millions DIE from capitalism.

The good thing for you is that capitalism is enforced in those countries where the poor die by the millions. Today and every day some 60,000 people have died from the effects of poverty caused by your beloved capitalism.

That means in the time it takes you to post a thousand or so babies have starved to death or died from a preventable or curable disease.

Answer the question.

What do you offer those thousand who will die in the time you are posting as a way to halt the killing done by poverty caused by your beloved capitalism?

How about telling the mothers of those dying skeletal babies with the bloated bellies to "try a ting"?
Maybe if those mothers with less than a dollar-a-day income would pay their taxes, their babies wouldn't have to die.

Where's your solution ? You seem to know everything. Cut the bs and post your solution(s).
First you gave me more effective taxation and subsequently backed down saying that wouldn't work in the worst affected countries.
Now you point to Nigeria with a "complex solution" that you somehow forgot to post. That Rwanda and Botswana have differeent solutions but again somehow you forgot to post those solutions as well.

Barbados? That the best you've got? How many starve to death of the what, a million people who live there?
South Korea is not Third World, Formosa (Taiwan) is not Third World and then you're telling me that the effects of poverty have been eliminated in Malaysia and India because of EFFECTIVE taxation?

You're dancing all over the place avoiding the question and it's well past tiome to stop your dancing. You can run but you cannot hide.

Answer the question:
What do you offer the thousands dying today and the scores of millions who die each year from capitalism induced poverty as a way to keep them from dying?