Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Johnny

An intellectual (you)and an idiot(me)share one habit.We overvalue our thoughts and intention

I do it because I am an idiot and I dont completely understand anyone else point of view.You do it because as An intellectual
you have the ability to understand the other point of view

You come across to me as someone who thinks he is smarter than everybody body else.Your point of view has to be right if it wasn't right a smart guy like you wouldn't be thinking it.

So consequently any thoughts by lesser minds are ignored by you
the intellectual </div></div>

Intellectual? Hardly. More a self-opinionated windbag who has to be eternally grateful for this forum where SOME people actually take him seriously.

He has to actually think we're so stupid not to see through the purist socialism nonsense that he peddles here everyday. Even he can't possibly believe what he's saying. I mean, why do you think he has to repeat the same thing at every chance he gets; clearly it must be to convince himself.

Quite frankly, I find those posts so patronizing as to be racist.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

Intellectual? Hardly. More a self-opinionated windbag who has to be eternally grateful for this forum where SOME people actually take him seriously.

He has to actually think we're so stupid not to see through the purist socialism nonsense that he peddles here everyday. Even he can't possibly believe what he's saying. I mean, why do you think he has to repeat the same thing at every chance he gets; clearly it must be to convince himself.

Quite frankly, I find those posts so patronizing as to be racist. [/quote]


Listen,
If you want to just make ad hominem attacks go right ahead. I've been called a racist by others before who like you have no argument to counter the truth in what I say and are angry because of that.

As to being a racist, I'm one of the few racists who hates black people so much that I bought land and built a house smack in the middle of an all-black Jamaican neighborhood just so I could have enough black people around to hate.

If you want to say that I have no love for people who through their actions and words keep driving Jamaica down by repeating the same mistake of voting in the very people who are ruining the country then, fair enough but don't make youself look stupid by baseless name-calling.

And , of course I repeat myself, just as you and others who support the corrupt and inept two-party system keep talking up this politrician or that politrician, none of whom will do a damned thing for the poor and working poor of Jamaica.

Maybe if I repeat the truth and offer possible solutions to what ails Jamaica often enough it will get through all the lies you have believed for so long.

Just how bad will things have to get before you start looking for real alternatives?

Are you waiting to become another Haiti?

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

I never pegged you for the hood-wearing, cross-burning type. Of course not. You're more the type who apparently has the best of motives - "these people, I must save them because their inferior minds render them incapable of saving themselves." You speak in such condescending, patronizing tones as if, as Remo rightly observed, we're not smart enough. You're more the latent racist; in fairness to you, you're probably not even aware of it and I'm inclined to be sympathetic here. Nonetheless, overall, I have only contempt for your kind.

As to your arguments about the paradise that is socialism, the panacea for all of Jamaica's economic problems, I've heard them ad nauseum over the last five or more years. I've had numerous debates with you over the last five years. I have no problems debating people of opposing view points to mine. In fact, I enjoy that. What I can't stand is intellectual dishonesty. People on this board are smart enough to see through purist socialism so you can preach all you want. But it goes back to my earlier point. You're thinking: "they are so stupid, they can't see what I'm saying."

I've repeatedly stated on this forum that I support a robust social agenda, not for the sake of hand-outs, but because, they are in keeping with what a just society should be, and because they will yield great benefits to a society in the long term. Proper education, training and health care, in particular, constitutes human resource development, the platform upon which productivity is manifested. I think you and I agree on that. But how will these be funded. I don't know how you would propose to do so. Reason will dictate that, in the long term, there has to be a way to grow the economy in a substantial way in order to support these programs. This has to come from investments. Failing that, an economy will simply be ruined though it had the best of intentions.

Contrary to what you believe, I don't see Golding as some kind of Messiah. However, I think he is the best person, all things considered, for the job at hand. You, a supporter of various social programs, primarily free education and healthcare, now find it neccesary to oppose them. Why? Apparently because they are now being proposed by non-socialists. These are always met with your dismissive attitude that amounts to "they can not be done because of evil capitalism, and ray ray ray." If you're an intelligent man, you have to come armed with better arguments than that. For you, ideology trumps what is practically workable.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

Dyoll, you posted:
I've repeatedly stated on this forum that I support a robust social agenda, not for the sake of hand-outs, but because, they are in keeping with what a just society should be, and because they will yield great benefits to a society in the long term. Proper education, training and health care, in particular, constitutes human resource development, the platform upon which productivity is manifested. I think you and I agree on that. But how will these be funded. I don't know how you would propose to do so. Reason will dictate that, in the long term, there has to be a way to grow the economy in a substantial way in order to support these programs. This has to come from investments. Failing that, an economy will simply be ruined though it had the best of intentions.

Contrary to what you believe, I don't see Golding as some kind of Messiah. However, I think he is the best person, all things considered, for the job at hand. You, a supporter of various social programs, primarily free education and healthcare, now find it neccesary to oppose them. Why? Apparently because they are now being proposed by non-socialists. These are always met with your dismissive attitude that amounts to "they can not be done because of evil capitalism, and ray ray ray." If you're an intelligent man, you have to come armed with better arguments than that. For you, ideology trumps what is practically workable.


Dyoll_73,

The above is what I am addressing.
You are talking about "growing the economy" through investments, proper education, training , healthcare all of which you say are necessary for development.
I thoroughly agree.

What we disagree upon is the ability of a capitalist system in a country as poor, as heavily indebted and as corrupt as Jamaica do put any of theese things in place.

What we disagree on is also the ability of a trickle-down economic scheme to achieve any of these considering that even in the heart of capitalism, in the richest capitalist state, the U.S. trickle down, (development from the top down) has not only failed but has resulted in a massive shift in wealth from the poor to the rich and a decline in the state of the working people and the poor.

You seem to think I'm singling out Jamaica as the place that nothing is done right but the reality is that in the supossedly better educated U.S , the people here buy into the status quo even more so than do the people of Jamaica.

To date no one has pointed out where in the heavily -indebted Third World your prescription for economic reform and success has worked and quite to the contrary I can point to the fact that half the world lives on $1-2.00 dollars day under the sane capitalism and neo-liberal economics that have failed miserably.

Not only failed miserably but which does not show any sign of turning things around.

These systems of totalitarian economic and politics have no interest in ceding power and wealth to the poor.

Yet you cling to this fantasy.

Your stuff does not work, has not worked, cannot work.

What I am proposing works and so far is the ONLY thing that has worked to take care of all the people of a poor country.

And FYI, I certainly do NOT oppose free education and healthcare and support it anywhere and everywhere.
What I am is skeptical of Jamaica's ability to provide them given it's lack of money to devote to social programs.

As for being ideology driven, sure I'll grant you that's true BUT the facts are that neo-liberal capitalism, neo-colonial capitalism , top-down/ totalitarian capitalism is bad for Jamaica and the rest of the half of the world's people that live in poverty.

It doesn't work because it cannot work.
It is driven by greed and or the profit motive which always is placed above human need. ALWAYS.

You wrote:
" Proper education, training and health care, in particular, constitutes human resource development, the platform upon which productivity is manifested. I think you and I agree on that. BUT HOW WILL THESE BE FUNDED? I DON"T KNOW HOW YOU WOULD PROPOSE TO DO SO . Reason will dictate that, in the long term, there has to be a way to grow the economy in a substantial way in order to support these programs."

The emphasis is mine in the paragraph above but the question that you asked is central to how illogical your solutions to Jamaica's problems are.
You know the solutions but under the systems you support and recommend, there are no ways to implement the solutions.

[Q3210]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

I never pegged you for the hood-wearing, cross-burning type. Of course not. You're more the type who apparently has the best of motives - "these people, I must save them because their inferior minds render them incapable of saving themselves." You speak in such condescending, patronizing tones as if, as Remo rightly observed, we're not smart enough. You're more the latent racist; in fairness to you, you're probably not even aware of it and I'm inclined to be sympathetic here. Nonetheless, overall, I have only contempt for your kind.


Dyoll, I for once disagree with you. You say JC is not the cross bearing in your face racist, but you say in one breath, that he apparently is one of those that have the best of motives.

JC, has always stood by what he has defended as the ideal political way. Yes, he is in your face with that and he has not one ounce of faith in the traditional 2 party system that has either stifled or lifted Jamaica from the shackles of post slavery-post colonial exploitation.

Some of the brightest minds, some of the not so bright minds have that touch of arrogance in their personalities.
NW Manley it was said had little time nor patience for people who were not on his level of thinking. Was he racist?

I think that because of JC`s personality as arrogant as he can be some of the time or as humble as he can be too, it is a bit arrogant on your part to call him a racist.

There are many same colour people who can be condescending and in your face with what they belive to be the right way.

It is a trait that some individuals have which has nothing to do with being racist.

I would beware of the Cromwellian and the labelling measures one takes to another when not in agreement.

JC is a human being first, and whatever else after. To tar him with feathers as a fellow boardite, who has always followed the rules and regulations of Boardlane is rather out of line.

Like him or hate him, please respect him as a member of jamaicans.com

Walk good my friend. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/proud_jamaica.gif[/img]

[j-can]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

Dyoll wrote
](You're more the type who apparently has the best of motives - "these people, I must save them because their inferior minds render them incapable of saving themselves." )]


Having read this thread I must add my two cents here


With all due respect Q3210.. I think you have taken Dyoll statement out of context I dont think it was intended as a complement

I am not defending Dyoll because as we all no he is more than capable of doing that himself.....
first Cakes now you telling us how we must fell and what we must say as though we are not capable of doing these things our selves

You might not agree with Dyoll but those are his opinions and how are you so sure that he is not correct

[Q3210]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

There is nothing sure except for taxes and death.

J Cakes maybe a racist, yes but I am not one to call him one based on his know it all political views.

Call him arrogant, call him a fool, but a racist, no.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

J-can wrote:
first Cakes now you telling us how we must fell and what we must say as though we are not capable of doing these things our selves

You might not agree with Dyoll but those are his opinions and how are you so sure that he is not correct

J-Can,
With all due respect, Dyoll (and others) are trying to say that electing the same parties with the same failed policies that has gotten Jamaica into the fix it is in will somehow fix the very problems they either cause or now that are too deep to get out of.

I am saying that a neo-colonial, neo-liberal economy does not work in poor countries and in fact, makes things worse.

I am also saying that with two parties running the country who choose the people for whom you will vote, you (and the U.S.) do not have much of a representative democracy which you need to change things.

The politrix of both parties ensures that the same old policies will be followed with investments made at the top enriching or benefiting a few and the benefits not "trickling down" to the poor and working poor.

The money stays at the top in capitalist economies. That's their very nature.
It is also not very likely that those at the top will ceded either power nor share the wealth when both the political and economic systems are based on holding on to all the power and money one can get.
Even in the poor countries, there IS enough to go around but it must be shared in an egaliatrian manner and this is impossible in a capitalist system which invariably goes hand in hand with a non-democratic political system.

I do not believe that half the world, if they had democratic electoral systems, would VOTE to be so poor that they starve to death by the tens of millions each year.

Do you?

No but the rich and the dictatorial "democracies" will not give up anything willingly which is why oftentimes a violent revolution is necessary.

Frederick Douglass the great black leader of 19th century U.S. said something to the effect that the people in power in the U.S (with systems very similar to what exists in Ja and the U.S. today) will not cede anything without a struggle.

He was correct then and I believe him to be correct today.

Neither the JLP nor the PNP has done anything but drive Jamaica down since independence and the deterioration is increasing at a faster rate in the past 20 years or so.

Do you think I am incorrect, arrogant or racist for pointing this out?

[Q3210]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

As for the topic, I dont think you flop nor flip but you are convicted to the beliefs you share with us here.

Bruce merely flipped at his own JLP back then when Seaga was leader and the dinasours were as usual being contented with their feet stuck in the mud of political stagnation.

Bruce flopped or flew back to the JLP to use it as a political vehicle to propagate his ideas and radical thinking.

I wish to see how he will implement most if not all that he said shall be done.

[meknoise]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

I find it astounding that anyone still doesn't understand that Bruce left the JLP on a matter of principle, that he returned only when it was agreed that his concerns would be addressed and that he is interested in bringing fundamental change to the Jamaican constitution.

[Q3210]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

Hence what I said in previous post.
Mi is not pawt of de `anyone` dat yu talkin about.

[meknoise]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

Sorry, I'm still getting used to this 'board' system. I did realise you knew what you were talking about!

[Q3210]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

Counting down the posts you need to do to qualify for citizenship on the Board.

Belated welcome to this gathering of Jamaican minds.
Jamaican, meaning also the not born born ah yards.
Jamaican, meaning folks with the slightest to the greatest interest of Jamaica at heart.

[Morpheous]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wondered about the flop flop instead of it being flip or flop.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why do you think that it was edited?
i say it when you posted it first and thought you had intended it as a sort of ridicule. That's before it's first response. </div></div>

Aaah... I gawn guh tek mi medication befo mi figet agen [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/dizzy.gif[/img]

[Q3210]

Re: Bruce Golding - Flop or Flop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wondered about the flop flop instead of it being flip or flop.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why do you think that it was edited?
i say it when you posted it first and thought you had intended it as a sort of ridicule. That's before it's first response. </div></div>

Aaah... I gawn guh tek mi medication befo mi figet agen [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/dizzy.gif[/img]

</div></div>

I think perhaps you do not do that more4us, medication already dispensated could be the cause of the feelings of on-coming craziness.
And who do you think is our great dispenser in here!!