Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

[RichD]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some interesting points raised,and is worthy of debate.

I too feel that Jamaica wasnt ready for independence,and has seen a steady decline since 1962,..admittedly I wasnt alive that many years before `62,however what I`ve seen since can not be called progress. </div></div>

yet many will argue there there was significant progress between independence and about 1970 or so

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

While not endorsing the article, I would agree with the sentiment regarding the general level of mediocrity that is so pervasive in Jamaican society. Jamaica's leaders, and too many Jamaicans, still think in mediocre terms. They seem to excell in mediocrity. Mediocrity - often disguised as "realism" - will never get Jamaica to the high standards of living it says it seeks.

Certain aspects of Jamaican pop culture (low art), the exaltation of parochialism, and support for these from certain parts of the inteligentia, are in keeping with the spirit and tradition of the culture of mediocrity.

Having said that, I don't think that if the great majority of the people should become perfect-English-speaking, Shakespeare-quoting, Beethoven-loving, that the pressing problems - economic, political, social, moral - would magically disappear and we would just march inevitably towards "First World" status.

Jamaica's problems are not the result of leaving the British flag. The post-independence history of Jamaica is - with some exceptions - one of mismanagement, ineptitude, corruption and lost opportunities. This is not to say, of course, that life was wonderful for the majority of Jamaicans under colonial rule.

[goldilocks]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mackone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> trying to create a culture were HARD-WORKING, HONEST,CREATIVE, EDUCATED people
are things that matter most to us </div></div>

No lack of such people in Jamaica, just lack of opportunity and support from government for free primary education, medical care, housing, jobs.

Jamaica should develop what it has: eco-tourism, use green technology like wind turbines and solar, preserve its natural resources, promote alternative medicine.

It is said that there is a plant in Jamaica to heal every illness/disease known to man, and "first" world countries come to take the plants and process them into uselessness. I say go back to the Bush man and woman and learn the natural ways and market them. Farming, livestock, herbalists - back to old school. The world needs this, and will need it even more in the future.

As far as "first" world things - All that glitters is not gold.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I too feel that Jamaica wasnt ready for independence,and has seen a steady decline since 1962.</div></div>

How would you define "readiness" in the Jamaican context?

I suppose I could offer a definition based on what I think some Jamaicans mean by readiness (with respect to Independence) and explain why I think they are wrong, but I may be accused of creating a 'straw man' so I will wait for you to define it.

[X]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: goldilocks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as "first" world things - All that glitters is not gold. </div></div>
Prexactly.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iches</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...well, according to our history books - Jamaica was the first "First world" in the west. Jamaica had everything then that North and Central America never had. </div></div>
Now this is a jole!! or os ot??
When was Jamaica ever forst world??
You mean whne the majpority of Jamaican children had no opportubity to aquire a grade 7 education?
What the majority of children went to school BARE FOOT, walked to aNBD FROM SCHOOL?
wHEN THE MAJORITY OF jAMAICANS COULDNET READ?
When Jamaica used Brirish currencc y,because all it's wealth was irabsferedt to the British treasury?
Or is it when the Brits left Jamaica just enough in it's treasury to run the country for 2 weels? I wonder when Jamaica was first world?? And which history bools can that be found??

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

What did you learn about the history of Jamaica, for the period 1926 to 1962??

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some interesting points raised,and is worthy of debate.

I too feel that Jamaica wasnt ready for independence,and has seen a steady decline since 1962,..admittedly I wasnt alive that many years before `62,however what I`ve seen since can not be called progress. </div></div>
No country is ever ready for independence.
Jamaica was no different from the US and it's position after 45 years is no worse that the US an that stage of independence.
People need to read history then talk about it. Not post baseless ideas to atrract contraversy masqurading as debate.

[neutral]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some interesting points raised,and is worthy of debate.

I too feel that Jamaica wasnt ready for independence,and has seen a steady decline since 1962,..admittedly I wasnt alive that many years before `62,however what I`ve seen since can not be called progress. </div></div>
No country is ever ready for independence.
Jamaica was no different from the US and it's position after 45 years is no worse that the US an that stage of independence.
People need to read history then talk about it. Not post baseless ideas to atrract contraversy masqurading as debate. </div></div>


Is that what you think I am doing,posting baseless ideas to attract controversy..?
I thought I was offering my point of view on the issues raised,while I dont claim to be a world knowledge on Jamaican history such as you my learned friend I do think my humble contribution is worthy of more credit than you are giving it.

I know I come over as thick as two short planks,..but that maybe on account of my modest education,..I didnt get past primary school level...take your time with me,I do realise I am entering into educated people territory on this forum.

[neutral]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I too feel that Jamaica wasnt ready for independence,and has seen a steady decline since 1962.</div></div>

How would you define "readiness" in the Jamaican context?



</div></div>

I would describe it as all part of the symptoms that the poster described in his opening post.

[bee_bop]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

mackone said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (In any case, politicians dont elect themselves. so that says alot about the majority voting populace in jamaica.)</div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #990000">Apparently you never know how many times the various politricksters, in their respective garrisons get voted in with over 100% of the vote(the dead voting too)...how many times gunmen brazenly raid polling stations and steal ballot boxes to stuff them (and don't ask what I mean by stuff them either)...</span>

mackone said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear people saying why the politicians dont break up the garrisons. Obviously it is the people themselves who dont want change and feel comfortable with said culture.(the majority at least). again back to jamaica's cultural curse of essentially just accepting things as they are and not ultimately wanting better. </div></div>

<span style="color: #990000">1. Have you ever heard of gunmen that tried to reform themselves??? The newspaper carried a story of one of them, many years ago, who tried to stop other gunmen from giving his son a gun, and the gunman simply shot the father dead in front of his son...apparently the father was trying to go straight after a time in prison...
2. I have been told by someone who used to visit Tivoli regularly, from the country-side, and he said that if there was a political meeting there, and you were found at home, while it was in progress, you better have a good reason to be home then...
3. I also was told by a church-going person about an attempt, some time ago to help people in the garrison areas to develop meaningful employment, a chicken-rearing business was established by the church...gunmen merely invaded the premises and destroyed the chicken coops....<span style="color: #000099">WHO YOU THINK WAS GOING TO TRY AND RESIST THOSE GUNMEN???</span>I am certain you'd be long gone to where ever...
4. In MoBay, reports from the news media relate a tale of gunmen randomly shooting helpless, innocent people...why do you think they are doing this??? Just as the previous stories about how garrisons were established in Kingston, so is it happening in MoBay...<span style="color: #000099">HOW CAN THESE INNOCENT PEOPLE RESIST THIS ONSLAUGHT??? </span>For all you know there are criminal police among them...
I am sure there are many, many more stories that can be added to these...
</span>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mackone said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (In any case, politicians dont elect themselves. so that says alot about the majority voting populace in jamaica.)</div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #990000">Apparently you never know how many times the various politricksters, in their respective garrisons get voted in with over 100% of the vote(the dead voting too)...how many times gunmen brazenly raid polling stations and steal ballot boxes to stuff them (and don't ask what I mean by stuff them either)...</span>

mackone said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear people saying why the politicians dont break up the garrisons. Obviously it is the people themselves who dont want change and feel comfortable with said culture.(the majority at least). again back to jamaica's cultural curse of essentially just accepting things as they are and not ultimately wanting better. </div></div>

<span style="color: #990000">1. Have you ever heard of gunmen that tried to reform themselves??? The newspaper carried a story of one of them, many years ago, who tried to stop other gunmen from giving his son a gun, and the gunman simply shot the father dead in front of his son...apparently the father was trying to go straight after a time in prison...
2. I have been told by someone who used to visit Tivoli regularly, from the country-side, and he said that if there was a political meeting there, and you were found at home, while it was in progress, you better have a good reason to be home then...
3. I also was told by a church-going person about an attempt, some time ago to help people in the garrison areas to develop meaningful employment, a chicken-rearing business was established by the church...gunmen merely invaded the premises and destroyed the chicken coops....<span style="color: #000099">WHO YOU THINK WAS GOING TO TRY AND RESIST THOSE GUNMEN???</span>I am certain you'd be long gone to where ever...
4. In MoBay, reports from the news media relate a tale of gunmen randomly shooting helpless, innocent people...why do you think they are doing this??? Just as the previous stories about how garrisons were established in Kingston, so is it happening in MoBay...<span style="color: #000099">HOW CAN THESE INNOCENT PEOPLE RESIST THIS ONSLAUGHT??? </span>For all you know there are criminal police among them...
I am sure there are many, many more stories that can be added to these...
</span> </div></div>
Politicians are mostly elected by the<span style='font-size: 20pt'> media </span> .especially the western international media. They create and promote corrupt leaders. They seel and destroy good leaders leaders.
That is those who will not support the sacling of the wealth of theor country,by conglomerates,that the media support.
They do so because,they have the control of the type of knowledge the citizens get and decide the eventual fate of the politicians.
Corrupt countries have corrupt leaders, because that is the only way the western multinationals can get the resources od 3rd world countries for a pittance.
All they have to do is to promote a knowingly corrupt leader, fund their campaign, praise them as angels in their media instrument and sit back and wait until the naive voters,elect them.
Then they pay a little kickback and steal the resources.
they also destroy leaders that refuses to follow their playbook.
Like the present leader of Zimbabwe.
When he was acting against his people he was the darling of the west.
Now things change and he is the incarnate,even in the eyes of the so called educated blacks.
What a shame.
This is how it work. It can be eliminated too.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some interesting points raised,and is worthy of debate.

I too feel that Jamaica wasnt ready for independence,and has seen a steady decline since 1962,..admittedly I wasnt alive that many years before `62,however what I`ve seen since can not be called progress. </div></div>
No country is ever ready for independence.
Jamaica was no different from the US and it's position after 45 years is no worse that the US an that stage of independence.
People need to read history then talk about it. Not post baseless ideas to atrract contraversy masqurading as debate. </div></div>


Is that what you think I am doing,posting baseless ideas to attract controversy..?
I thought I was offering my point of view on the issues raised,while I dont claim to be a world knowledge on Jamaican history such as you my learned friend I do think my humble contribution is worthy of more credit than you are giving it.

I know I come over as thick as two short planks,..but that maybe on account of my modest education,..I didnt get past primary school level...take your time with me,I do realise I am entering into educated people territory on this forum.
</div></div> [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

[neutral]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mackone said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (In any case, politicians dont elect themselves. so that says alot about the majority voting populace in jamaica.)</div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #990000">Apparently you never know how many times the various politricksters, in their respective garrisons get voted in with over 100% of the vote(the dead voting too)...how many times gunmen brazenly raid polling stations and steal ballot boxes to stuff them (and don't ask what I mean by stuff them either)...</span>

mackone said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear people saying why the politicians dont break up the garrisons. Obviously it is the people themselves who dont want change and feel comfortable with said culture.(the majority at least). again back to jamaica's cultural curse of essentially just accepting things as they are and not ultimately wanting better. </div></div>

<span style="color: #990000">1. Have you ever heard of gunmen that tried to reform themselves??? The newspaper carried a story of one of them, many years ago, who tried to stop other gunmen from giving his son a gun, and the gunman simply shot the father dead in front of his son...apparently the father was trying to go straight after a time in prison...
2. I have been told by someone who used to visit Tivoli regularly, from the country-side, and he said that if there was a political meeting there, and you were found at home, while it was in progress, you better have a good reason to be home then...
3. I also was told by a church-going person about an attempt, some time ago to help people in the garrison areas to develop meaningful employment, a chicken-rearing business was established by the church...gunmen merely invaded the premises and destroyed the chicken coops....<span style="color: #000099">WHO YOU THINK WAS GOING TO TRY AND RESIST THOSE GUNMEN???</span>I am certain you'd be long gone to where ever...
4. In MoBay, reports from the news media relate a tale of gunmen randomly shooting helpless, innocent people...why do you think they are doing this??? Just as the previous stories about how garrisons were established in Kingston, so is it happening in MoBay...<span style="color: #000099">HOW CAN THESE INNOCENT PEOPLE RESIST THIS ONSLAUGHT??? </span>For all you know there are criminal police among them...
I am sure there are many, many more stories that can be added to these...
</span> </div></div>
Politicians are mostly elected by the<span style='font-size: 20pt'> media </span> .especially the western international media. They create and promote corrupt leaders. They seel and destroy good leaders leaders.
That is those who will not support the sacling of the wealth of theor country,by conglomerates,that the media support.
They do so because,they have the control of the type of knowledge the citizens get and decide the eventual fate of the politicians.
Corrupt countries have corrupt leaders, because that is the only way the western multinationals can get the resources od 3rd world countries for a pittance.
All they have to do is to promote a knowingly corrupt leader, fund their campaign, praise them as angels in their media instrument and sit back and wait until the naive voters,elect them.
Then they pay a little kickback and steal the resources.
they also destroy leaders that refuses to follow their playbook.
Like the present leader of Zimbabwe.
When he was acting against his people he was the darling of the west.
Now things change and he is the incarnate,even in the eyes of the so called educated blacks.
What a shame.
This is how it work. It can be eliminated too. </div></div>

If I may be so bold as to challenge a couple of your wisely points with my humble opinion,firstly politicians in Jamaica are not elected by any media,"especially western international media",..they are elected by the electorate of Jamaica,..a process which is sometimes tainted,but never the less tainted by Jamaicans.

Secondly,...to draw a parallel between Jamaica`s leaders and events in zimbabwe is a little bit naive,..it is two entirely different things,..and both stems from entirely different historical scenarious........I know you dont wish to commit a faus paux here being such a learned historical junkie such as yourself.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Why Jamaica will reach firstworld status..NOT

Newtral, I don't think your educational achievements are as modest as you claim; rather, it is you who are being modest in describing them - unlike others who advertise theirs, but their statements betray that much-touted learning. In any case, debating the nuances of Jamaican history is not the sole province of the 'educated.' You and I are free to add our 'two cents.'

As is widely known, post-war Britain was eager to unload its colonies; some in Britain were claiming that the colonies were a burden on the British purse - so they said. Remember that even the idea of a federation of its former colonies in the West Indies was something Britain supported. Out of guilt, perhaps? But even long before this, and as you study the period of Jamaican history from 1838 (the end of the so-called "apprenticeship period" following slavery) to 1938, the majority of Jamaicans moved from being slaves to a landless proletariat (forgive the redundancy). The socio-economic conditions for the majority were so desperate, it was inevitable that things would erupt in the riots of 1938 - featuring the two major trade unions, the NWU and the BITU (led by two cousins - political rivals later on). Six years later, there was Universal Adult Suffrage, and subsequently, movements towards self-government.

At the time of Independence, there was widespread illiteracy, certain schools were attended mostly by the elites, and then a few others, employment and economic opportunity was limited for a large number of Jamaicans, some of our alumina was already under foreign ownership. These were just some of the conditions that existed under colonial rule and would most likely have persisted - under colonial rule - until the majority rose up en mass against them. The conditions facing nations at the time they decide to embark on nationhood are usually far from perfect. But they have to be undeterred by this fact. Self-determination and national pride must neccesarily compel citizens to throw off the yoke of colonial rule. The challenges facing the new nation are there to see, but there has to be a willingness to sieze that mantle, rise to the challenge, and lead the nation towards only what they can do for themselves. The only way in which I would construe 'readiness' is in whether Jamaica had qualified leaders to lead an independent nation forward. I believe that at the time, there were capable individuals who could lead Jamaica forward - both members of the JLP and PNP.

I believe that it was the direction in which Jamaica's politics went that is responsible for its present state, not independence itself. Despite some inequities, Jamaica's economy grew by an average of 6% during the period of 1962 - 1972, for example. I'm sure that there are people who are old enough who would claim that they were better off during colonial days. I think attributing Jamaica's problems, or some of it, on independence would shift the blame away from the politicians - JLP and PNP (mostly PNP) - who have been running the country for over forty-five years.