US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

(((evano))) You're right - ah peer fahhhht!

(((smooth))) "Jamaican Law"? I don't even know what the definition of that is anymore. And seemingly, neither do these clowns.

And yes, I still think they're making it more complicated than it need be.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YuriYuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm aware that a child born to a US citizen outside of the US does not have to physically hold up their hand and swear before a USCIS judge or agent to take the US Oath of allegiance.

That's not the point I'm addressing or taking issue with.

However - I can assure you, once you become a US Citizen - by whatever process you attain that citizenship, you have accepted allegence to the the United States of America.

There are NOT 2 classes of US Citizenship.

The title of this thread is indeed, correct.
</div></div>

I agree with what you wrote that whatever the process birth or naturalization a US citizen would be under allegiance to the US. But Jamaican law does not say that persons who hold dual citizenship cannot hold public office. It seems to specifically exclude only those who acquire citizenship in another country "by virtue of their own act". That is why the Vaz/Dabdoub case is not a simple open and shut case since Mr Vaz got his citizenship not through naturalization, which is voluntary, but through his mother who is a US citizen. </div></div>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if the question of allegiance is of such import, who does the GG swear allegiance to...matta of fact, being a constitutional monarchy , who di pm an all dem people who tek office really ha allegiance to...if we gwine to go by semantics, dem is all di queen's people....gr britain dem pledge allegiance to and if GB an Ja interests conflict, who , technically dem pledge allegiance to...cho... </div></div> The GG post is not the same. Jamaica is really doing all iof this ion behalf of the queen. Each post has it's own requirement as per qualification.
The next one that is in question is the director of elections.

[evanovitch]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if the question of allegiance is of such import, who does the GG swear allegiance to...matta of fact, being a constitutional monarchy , who di pm an all dem people who tek office really ha allegiance to...if we gwine to go by semantics, dem is all di queen's people....gr britain dem pledge allegiance to and if GB an Ja interests conflict, who , technically dem pledge allegiance to...cho... </div></div> The GG post is not the same. Each post has their own requirement as per qualification.
The next one that is in question is the director of elections.
</div></div>

many tings r deferred to the GG...by law....it usually is coined 'by the pleasure of the GG...if dem a go gwanie gwanie, dem fi gwanie gwanie bout di reality an not wat wi mek a man win a seat

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Tank yuh!

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70409-waytogo.gif[/img]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if the question of allegiance is of such import, who does the GG swear allegiance to...matta of fact, being a constitutional monarchy , who di pm an all dem people who tek office really ha allegiance to...if we gwine to go by semantics, dem is all di queen's people....gr britain dem pledge allegiance to and if GB an Ja interests conflict, who , technically dem pledge allegiance to...cho... </div></div> The GG post is not the same. Each post has their own requirement as per qualification.
The next one that is in question is the director of elections.
</div></div>

many tings r deferred to the GG...by law....it usually is coined 'by the pleasure of the GG...if dem a go gwanie gwanie, dem fi gwanie gwanie bout di reality an not wat wi mek a man win a seat </div></div>

[SmoothOperator]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What is in question in the law here is not the aquisition or inheriting of citizenship. But the question of allegiance. The argument being put forward here is the act of aquisition of a US passport,requires one to, as incsribed in the document states that you have done so and you are required to sign acceding to it.
Is he suggesting that he did not mean it when he signed,anf if he did not,why should his word to the court be accepted,if his signed agreement as evident in the document is not?. He probably do not mean anything he tekks the court too??
Or does he? </div></div>

This may seem like splitting hairs but I disagree because the allegiance question is not about a passport but about citizenship. There are US citizens both inside and outside of the US who have allegiance to the US by virtue of them being US citizens though they may not have US passports. Even if Mr Vaz was not the holder of a US passport he would still have an allegiance to the US by virtue of him having US citizenship through his mother. So to my thinking this is a case about citizenship and how the citizenship was arrived at, namely was it acquired voluntarily or involuntarily. I think thats the argument that Vaz's lawyers will make. Is it entirely convincing...I am not so sure.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What is in question in the law here is not the aquisition or inheriting of citizenship. But the question of allegiance. The argument being put forward here is the act of aquisition of a US passport,requires one to, as incsribed in the document states that you have done so and you are required to sign acceding to it.
Is he suggesting that he did not mean it when he signed,anf if he did not,why should his word to the court be accepted,if his signed agreement as evident in the document is not?. He probably do not mean anything he tekks the court too??
Or does he? </div></div>

This may seem like splitting hairs but I disagree because the allegiance question is not about a passport but about citizenship. There are US citizens both inside and outside of the US who have allegiance to the US by virtue of them being US citizens though they may not have US passports. Even if Mr Vaz was not the holder of a US passport he would still have an allegiance to the US by virtue of him having US citizenship through his mother. So to my thinking this is a case about citizenship and how the citizenship was arrived at, namely was it acquired voluntarily or involuntarily. I think thats the argument that Vaz's lawyers will make. Is it entirely convincing...I am not so sure. </div></div> Laws are noit about truth. It is about provable story. OIt does not matter that pne is a US citizen,if ther is nothing to prove that he swears allegiance to that country. Without a passport,
ot could still be supported by other mathods. It can even be proven in court against noncitizens of any ountry. As a matter of fact many countrues have proven in court that their citizens have sworn allegiance to other countries ove the years. The case is all about alleguance. citizenship and passport are only being used as means of evidence of that.

[Magician]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cho!
Nuff ppl deh bout (me included) have more than one passport. And only caw you hold a passport nuh mean seh yuh hold allegiance to nobody.

If a man want serve (one of) him country then why dem ago gi him trouble. That kinda thinking proculde good people from holding public office due to no fault of their own. </div></div>
Probably because it is the law?? </div></div>

This law, like all stupid laws that hurt and not help the country, needs to change.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cho!
Nuff ppl deh bout (me included) have more than one passport. And only caw you hold a passport nuh mean seh yuh hold allegiance to nobody.

If a man want serve (one of) him country then why dem ago gi him trouble. That kinda thinking proculde good people from holding public office due to no fault of their own. </div></div>
Probably because it is the law?? </div></div>

This law, like all stupid laws that hurt and not help the country, needs to change. </div></div> ntil then,we have to function under it's rule. The rule of law is the onlo authority that maintain a country's sovreignity.

[evanovitch]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cho!
Nuff ppl deh bout (me included) have more than one passport. And only caw you hold a passport nuh mean seh yuh hold allegiance to nobody.

If a man want serve (one of) him country then why dem ago gi him trouble. That kinda thinking proculde good people from holding public office due to no fault of their own. </div></div>
Probably because it is the law?? </div></div>

This law, like all stupid laws that hurt and not help the country, needs to change. </div></div> ntil then,we have to function under it's rule. The rule of law is the onlo authority that maintain a country's sovreignity. </div></div>

the law neva get a chance to wuk..is dem dang fools who try circumvent, bend and misuse it fi sheg di very nation dem swear pon Bible fi betta, dat is di problem...mi really feel seh dem politician a yaad use a hollowed out bible fi tek dem oath pon...all dat deh one weh a claim divine authority fi him current tourism position...damn fool...not even weed wud a mek him seh dat fawt so is much plain ignorance

[DAVY]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Well I think this is very important for the countries governance.

If Mr. Vaz doesn't declare which citizenship gets precedence, then what happens if he comes into conflict as a minister of Govenment in Jamaica and America's rights and interest in Jamaica.

For example if the American Government believes that every country should impose a trade imbargo against Cuba. Will Mr. Vaz then follow the ditates of his American Goverment and their policies, even if it might b]<span style="color: #FF0000">NOT in the interest of Jamaica</span>[/b] or will he defy America's wishes and allow Jamaica to continue to trade and do business with Cuba? He as a minister will be entrusted with certain responsibilities and power on behalf of the Jamaican population that requires his allegiance to be Jamaica first.

It is important even from a legislative point a view, I agree with previous bloggers, it is the Jamaican Government who should clarify these laws with so many Jamaicans having multiply citizenship.

My 2 Cents
Hyprocrite Davy Who is a Multiply Citizenship Holders)

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Exactly Davy - "it is the Jamaican Government who should clarify these laws with so many Jamaicans having multiply citizenship" - which is why the JA govt, like the majority of of other nations, needs to just make up their minds.

Cut the crap, put the semantics aside and get to some endgame: is it or is it not acceptable to the JA govt to have a dual citizen serving in these types of offices ... ?

For example - the Japanese - and a few other countries, don't play that.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Astute legal analysis aside, this case, and the others to come, are attempts by the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> to recover through the courts what it lost at the polls in September. This card was always waiting in the deck, even before the elections based on predictions about a close contest, perhaps even a slim win for the <span style="color: #33CC00">JLP</span>, and waiting to be played when the moment arose. If the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> had won comfortably, I don't believe the issue of dual citizenship would have been pursued.

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Indeed Dyoll - that's what I've been saying thru out this thread. Neither side is being honest about their motives.

They dont honestly give a flying fig about "citizenship" or "allegence".

By their actions and governing, you have to wonder if ANY of them even have any allegence to JAMAICA!


Please - [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70388-shameonyou.gif[/img]




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Astute legal analysis aside, this case, and the others to come, are attempts by the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> to recover through the courts what it lost at the polls in September. This card was always waiting in the deck, even before the elections based on predictions about a close contest, perhaps even a slim win for the <span style="color: #33CC00">JLP</span>, and waiting to be played when the moment arose. If the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> had won comfortably, I don't believe the issue of dual citizenship would have been pursued. </div></div>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Astute legal analysis aside, this case, and the others to come, are attempts by the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> to recover through the courts what it lost at the polls in September. This card was always waiting in the deck, even before the elections based on predictions about a close contest, perhaps even a slim win for the <span style="color: #33CC00">JLP</span>, and waiting to be played when the moment arose. If the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> had won comfortably, I don't believe the issue of dual citizenship would have been pursued. </div></div> Although the issue was brought up immidiately after the candidates were nomminated/
although members onvolved put paid advertisements and flyers to the public of the act being unlawful? it could have fooled me, but I am a simple person.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Astute legal analysis aside, this case, and the others to come, are attempts by the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> to recover through the courts what it lost at the polls in September. This card was always waiting in the deck, even before the elections based on predictions about a close contest, perhaps even a slim win for the <span style="color: #33CC00">JLP</span>, and waiting to be played when the moment arose. If the <span style="color: #FF9900">PNP</span> had won comfortably, I don't believe the issue of dual citizenship would have been pursued. </div></div> Although the issue was brought up immidiately after the candidates were nomminated/
although members onvolved put paid advertisements and flyers to the public of the act being unlawful? it could have fooled me, but I am a simple person.
</div></div>

Didn't the Director of Elections say, presumably under advice from counsel, that all candidates were properly nominated?