Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

[britisha]

Chastising with the sting of the scorpion
published: Saturday | June 4, 2005

Hartley Neita, Contributor

LAST TUESDAY, a lady for whom I have a lot of respect gave me a tongue-lashing for four flights in an elevator about my advocacy for the resumption of the cat-o-nine. In language that was elegant, she described me as a wicked prehistoric man, ending with a swipe that was the unkindest cut of all.

She blazed at me. "It is because of your generation which resorted to cruel and inhumane methods of punishment in your time that has led to the chaos and violence being heaped on the society today."

All mi know seh is diss,,,,,,,,,, in the days of the 'nines Jamaica was a more civil society, and don't jump to any conclusion that I am saying that it is because of this corporal punishment..oh noo....I didn't say that..in the days of the 'nines, there wasn't a preponderance of seeming moral decay, there was fear and sadness, when someone died, muchless murdered in broad daylight in the open, not the jumping and high salute by some who have been desentisized to this isshh in our nation..

...in the days of the nines, people did ongle fraid a duppy, now ppl noh fraid a duppy noh more, dem fraid a gun and gunman/gunwoomaan..naah leff hout di ooman dem neida..in the days of the nines the recidivism rate of criminals was LOW!!..agen nat saying that it cozzing a di 'nines..mi juss a put two and two togeddah to mek a nuymbah.. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Last but nat least, mi did hear seh, when smaddie tasted the cat-o-nines dem nevah commit anadda crime, the unfortunate recipients seh dem all ** dem pants, some a dem beg the judge fi more time rather a jail than the cat..what is it about the cat? Mi noh know, mi nat fi brutality, mi fraid dem might cat the wrong person..but mi a tell yuh. if wi think things did bad innah dem days...wha bout now?


bring back the nines? Forget bout a jail cell of scorpions..ie long tongue women!! absolutely no pun here.

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

...."beg the judge fi more time a jail, rather than the Cat..."

Now madame feels as if it is the way we treated our ppl. ie "It is because of your generation which resorted to cruel and inhumane methods of punishment in your time that has led to the chaos and violence being heaped on the society today." ..punishment of whooo? Our children? Our prisoners? Juss who????? : [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] : a likkle learning is certainly a dangerous thing.. Is eida dah chirrens are lashing out or the prisoners have become more volatile : : '

[n.c.rootswoman]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

check out the stats in the far east, remember that American kid that got the public whoopin back in de 90's ? Spare the rod spoil the nation ?

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by n.c.rootswoman:
[qb] check out the stats in the far east, remember that American kid that got the public whoopin back in de 90's ? Spare the rod spoil the nation ? [/qb]

Interesting commentary here...ncw, what do you know about the "far east"? Do they use cat-o-nines? If they do, what is their rate of recidivism? Not putting you on the spot ncw, just thinking..

What this madame is saying, and I trust I read her correctly is that somewhere somehow our earlier form of 'punishment' has led to a more uncivil nation...In my time when we used to get a hiding for almost any sort of misbehaviour, both at home and at school..we were a more civil nation, a nation/people with pride, "guts," ambition, love and all the good values that one could wish for in a people..now it seems with the advent of much farrin things, and even values/moot theories, we have joined the big league of gangsters, murderers, thugs and fiends...is nat everything good fi heverrie boddie..

[n.c.rootswoman]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

I dont have the details but personally I got my *** beat by my mother when ever the need arose, I also cracked some in my day on my 3 sons. I have a healthy respect for the law and tend to love and respect people of all walks. Its interestin how weve evolved but not very promising if your a worldly person walkin the earth today !

[n.c.rootswoman]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

The suns shinin and Im gwan to de garden to tink

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by n.c.rootswoman:
[qb] The suns shinin and Im gwan to de garden to tink [/qb]

I'll be right behind you, I need to run out of here, till then folks....
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by n.c.rootswoman:
[qb] check out the stats in the far east, remember that American kid that got the public whoopin back in de 90's ? Spare the rod spoil the nation ? [/qb]

In what far east?? What do you know about the real statistics of Singapore?
First think That city state(because that is what it is)Is a virtual prison,wher you would not want to live (especially if you black).
It has only one political party,and one ruler for decades.It has one of the lowest level of press or human rights evaluation.
It certainmly is only suited for those who relish living in slavery.

[barosa]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

She blazed at me. "It is because of your generation which resorted to cruel and inhumane methods of punishment in your time that has led to the chaos and violence being heaped on the society today."

This lady, if she is not one of these modern day sociologist, or better yet fom the noble social worker's proffession, I'd be surprised... Whether so or not, she hasn't a clue of the principle of "cause and effects" as it relates to any society and what's is about... She may be among those that needed very little of what it took in produce upstanding citizens. Not too many are so gifted and do indeed need the stronger and more "forceful" guidance.

From my own experience, not too many of us would have amounted to much if we didn't have the "rod of correction" forever dangling over our heads. Our parents constant desire to see that you "toed the line" even when some went overboard, has earned their children's appreciation and thanks if only grudgingly done, or privately acknowledge by many of us.

I remembered the days of the "cat-0-nine" as a child, the fear and respect associated with it, was monumental when discussed by the elders. I used to read about the occasional occurencies in the gleaner when it was applied and that alone put enough fear in me... I agree with those of you who say and know that Jamaican society was a more civil, loving and humane one than it is today. I can tell any of you who will listen, that many Jamaicans who can remember and are still alive, yearn for those days.

Those were also the days that "life" as fifficult as it were for many, was respected. People mainly died from sickness, old age/natural causes and accidents. When one stops to look back, murders were rare and usually cause a lot of alarm and consternation. In many instances they were treated as headline news compare with today! In fact, the very few gun killings were usually from those who were from privileged backgrounds and for reasons unlike what's happening today.

A confluence of circumstances, leading to the erosion of our value systems, begins with the love affair with TINGS "farrin" and their influences on us. Materialism, "show me the money" ; "I want mine NOW!, the Why work? mentality if I can hustle it another way"... All the above, along with such things as "political" change, the advent of "Guns for the dis-advantaged" (so it seems) and the gradual shedding of "the traditional custom" of "caring fi wi one annada", have all brought us to where we are, at this moment. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Btw, n.c.rootswooman, the American youth that got whipped, happened in Singapore where they do not even joke around with spitting on the sidewalk... He was "whipped" for scribbling, using spray paint on some property there. The Americans didn't like it, but it was their LAW.

-------------------
The wise man must remember that while he is a descendant of the past, he is a parent of the future. : Herbert Spencer

[n.c.rootswoman]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Dr Dudd your not dealin with a fellow intelect here! DWL.....but I did recall the public thrashing done over there and found it interesting. thanks for the info Honey [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ..now lets talk about the sexual harrassment that male Docs suffer from their female patience
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/70365-flirt.gif[/img] BOAL

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb]

Originally posted by n.c.rootswoman:
[qb] check out the stats in the far east, remember that American kid that got the public whoopin back in de 90's ? Spare the rod spoil the nation ? [/qb]

In what far east?? What do you know about the real statistics of Singapore?
First think That city state(because that is what it is)Is a virtual prison,wher you would not want to live (especially if you black).
It has only one political party,and one ruler for decades.It has one of the lowest level of press or human rights evaluation.
It certainmly is only suited for those who relish living in slavery. [/qb]

Interesting comment Dack, however you could have been a little more tactful in your response ..while NCW MIGHT not be privy to the stats on the 'FAR EAST' I'm sure that it could be found if an effort is made. The gist of her point is Singapore is a "state" that will incorporate "corporal punishment" to maintain some semblance of "LAW AND ORDER."..even for minor infractions...

I remember the days when cursing bad words publicly was not tolerated and people if caught doing so would not only get arrested but fined in the court. Now verbal vulgarity is accepted to the extent that artistes use profanity with such regularity on stage it has become the norm..[think there was a recent case where one was arrested..]

While I [personally] do NOT condone the use of physical voilence in rearing children, one cannot help but make reference to the US where it is a crime regardless of the circumstances in which it is meted, eg school, home etc. Talking to children and using other methods of non physical voilence is recommended and I concur...I say that to say this, in the US even grabbing a child can be regarded as physical voilence, and they enforce the law to the max, still yet the US has the highest rate of incarceration in the world..

The literature describes interviews with criminals who BLAME their parents for not being stricter when raising them, which leaves one to wonder if there is a correlation between the lack of discipline in the early years and anti-social behaviour by adults later in life.

Agen the article states

"It is because of your generation which resorted to cruel and inhumane methods of punishment in your time that has led to the chaos and violence being heaped on the society today."

I don't see how it relates to the use of the Cat-O-Nine in dealing with convicted criminals.

As a side note, the "beating/hiding" of children by parents and teachers in Jamaica is frowned upon today and I can understand why, but I am inclined to believe that the lack of discipline is one of the cause for many of the problems that we are witnessing today in our society, not the other way around. How many of us as children in those days refrained from misbehaving for we fear consequences from our parents? Many of us, in the same way that some refrain from committing crimes because of the possibility of a jail time, still yet, the bare faced ones believe that they will never be caught, especially in a society where corruption and voilence have seemed to become the norm among SOME..

As far as I am concerened whatever it takes, within the boundaries of the law to bring about a significant drop in crime, USE IT!! Once I would say otherwise, but laaaawn man, something has to give..

..As I said before it seemed as if the cat o nine worked as inhuman as some might choose to see it, remember we are talking about criminals here....[wonder if they compiled any stats on this] maybe they should bring it back especially for career criminals who commit heinous crimes including voilence and the raping of children [at least]..[from the sounds of it we seldom hear of those who have a long rap sheet..]

The author stated So, lady of the elevator, forgive me for my views, even if you disagree with me. I am a small part of a long history of generations. And I do not believe that whipping and flogging of rapists is the cause of the violence which is becoming almost endemic in the society. That is the whole point..I think the woman missed his point completely, a clear example of a little learning being dangerous..

by n.c. roots woman

Dr Dudd your not dealin with a fellow intellect here! DWL.....but I did recall the public thrashing done over there and found it interesting. thanks for the info Honey ..now lets talk about the sexual harrassment that male Docs suffer from their female patience
BOAL

Intellect? Don't make me laugh!! I trust you were returning sarcasm for sarcasm. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] If I may say so, don't be fooled by titles.. britisha. YOUR OPINION IS YOUR OWN, don't be afraid to SHARE IT!! (((n c roots woman))

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Bring back the 'cat'!
Published on: 6/24/05.

PORT-OF-SPAIN, Trinidad – A High Court judge has called for the return of the cat-o-nine tails to punish rapists, saying that the use of the birch has done little to stem the tide of cases involving sexual offences that are flooding the courts.


Justice Herbert Volney made the call yesterday as he sentenced a taxi driver who kidnapped and raped a female passenger to 20 years in jail plus 15 strokes with the birch.

"I observe that the imposition of strokes with the birch is not deterring the number of rapes. I also observe the prevalence of sexual offence cases that are swamping the courts. Perhaps it is time for the authorities to bring back the cat-o-nine because the birch is not doing the job," Justice Volney declared.

The judge said women in this country must be able to travel safely, and sent a message to other taxi drivers that "they have no right to fancy making young women their sex slaves".

Rawle Bekaroo, 29, of Kelly Village, St Helena, stood motionless as the nine-member jury returned guilty verdicts for kidnapping, raping and sexually assaulting a then 23-year-old gas station pump attendant.

On the charge of rape, Bekaroo was sentenced to a term of 15 years hard labour and 15 strokes with the birch; five years hard labour for grievous sexual assault to follow the sentence of rape; and 20 years hard labour for kidnapping.

The judge described the victim as "one of the brave few who have had the courage to go through the painful process of living her experience over in court in a judicial system that is slow in bringing about trials".

Volney told Bekaroo: "You offered your vehicle for hire, plying the route late at night which is not uncommon these days."

He added that the prisoner was "nothing more than a PH driver with the common knowledge that at that time in the night, registered taxis hardly
ply for hire, the reason is because these are dangerous times and therefore the public take a chance, especially the women when they enter these vehicles, they take a chance with their lives".

Justice Volney told the rapist that this was a "classic case of a young woman who worked a night shift ... seeking to go home on a holiday night to be with her family and you took advantage of her in a most demeaning and debasing fashion". (Trinidad Express)

even the judge is calling for it

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Why don't they just go the whole enchalada,and stone him in the town square??
Since batteribg humanbeing is swiftly becoming the acceptanle form of punishment, in these 'civil'ized times.

[ivan miller]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Are we forgetting that the Cat-O-Nine was almost only used to detter the crime of praedial larceny committed in 'Declared Areas.'

Praedial Larceny is the stealing of agricultural produce. However, if the stealing was committed in areas outside the declared areas, flogging with the Cat-O-Nine would not apply.

The tamerind (tambrin) switch flogging was used on youthful offenders for serious crimes, other than Praedial Larceny committed anywhere. (i.e within and without the declared areas.) I do not know if this has anything to do with the name of the short term penal institution; 'Tamerind Farms.'

The Declared Areas were basically former slave plantations that opperated as major agricultural farms and supporting small farms abutting their peripheries.

The flogging with the cat-o-nine had nothing to do with crime in general, or of the Colony's crime rate, or its social order. It was a deterent to prevent former slaves or their decendants to pay themselves for past unpaid labour.

It has never been used in offence against the person law. IT WAS A STRICTURED LAW TO PROTECT THE FORMER WHITE SLAVE OWNER'S PROPERTY FROM THE FORMER SLAVES.

The use of the Cat-O-nine was legalized murder of Black Jamaican males by the colonial government. It was worse than lynching.

Note that the Cat-o-n-Nine was never used during slavery. Why would a proprietor distroyed his tool?

I will comeback with the cruelty.

[ivan miller]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

[Justice Small was a very harsh Judge, even for minor offences, but let us not speak evil of the dead.

Let us not omit the contribution of his son, Hugh Small Jr. to the Jamaican society. It is safe to say that the younger Hugh Small took up the mantle that was strippped from Peter Evans.

He took up and faught for the causes of the Rastas and down trodden and gave them a semblance of dignity in the Jamaican society in the early 60s. I witnessed him at work and he was effective.

The younger Hugh Small was an embarracement and a traitor to his father and the upper St. Andrew elete.

I hope that the Bahamians continue to respect him for his integrity and sence of justice. He is Jamaica's loss and Bahamas gain.]


Talking about irony, it was just yesterday that I posted the above (in brackets) in this very forum, responding to Tuff Gong's post about the demise of Justice Hugh Small Sr. A man big on giving the cat-O-Nine.

It was his son, Hugh Small Jr., E.K. Brown. Emil George, David Core and a few other young barristers that formed a cadre 'Friends of the Court' at Half Way Tree, in May 1962 to estop the Cat-O-Nine flogging of a poor and illiterrate young man from Westphalia, near Mavis Banks in rural St. Andrew.

The motion was granted by Mr. Melville, the RM on the advice of the Supreme Court. About a week later, it was outlawed by parliament.

The plea was that Jamaica should not carry this shameful barbaric colonial practise into independence especially when the law, in its history, was only used on black males.

It was roughly two months before independence.