Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Interesting historical background there Afer. I am not sure that I am following you here, and I quote:

The flogging with the cat-o-nine had nothing to do with crime in general, or of the Colony's crime rate, or its social order. It was a deterent to prevent former slaves or their decendants to pay themselves for past unpaid labour.

The second sentence is unclear, if you could elaborate, it would help me to understand better. Anyhow, I wondered if there was a correlation between the use of the cat-o-nine and the low recidivism rate of criminals then [agen not saying that the former is the cause of the latter, because there are no stats that I am privy to that would show this..now, in the same way that this is not proven, it is in the same way that there is NO conclusive proof, as far as I know of what the Madame in the elevator said. She declared that "It is because of your generation which resorted to cruel and inhumane methods of punishment in your time that has led to the chaos and violence being heaped on the society today."Maybe she has some information that others don't in terms of hard stats; and as I asked before, 'punishment of who?' If a proven criminal is punished, then the expectation is that he/she wouldn't repeat similar type crime for which he/she was punished, ie deterred.

However we've seen where many who have spent time in prison commit crimes again after release, even more violent than that which they were punished for before....showing that some form of punishment don't work for some people...but then, prisons now-a-days are schools for crime, not places for rehabilitation, therefore many criminals leave prison more hardened than before they went in.

From the last piece I pasted

"I observe that the imposition of strokes with the birch is not deterring the number of rapes. I also observe the prevalence of sexual offence cases that are swamping the courts. Perhaps it is time for the authorities to bring back the cat-o-nine because the birch is not doing the job," Justice Volney declared.

He made reference to the "birch," I didn't even know of such a thing, ie "birching" using a bundle of twigs from the birch for "flogging school boys." [Oxford]

NB..not girls..So Afer as you implied, the tamarind switch is different from the Cat, in the same way that the "birch" is...one is more "lethal" than the other..I guess the force the flogger uses counts as well. The judge is calling for the cat-o-nine to be reinstituted, leaving me with the impression that (a) he is of the age where he can remember those days, and even would be saying that (b) in those days it must've worked. Maybe he has "stats" or first hand knowledge/experience to back up what he is saying.

All I will say further is this, before the crime rate specifically the murder rate in Ja was of this magnitude, I was against capital punishment, ie murder by the state. However, my views are changing. If that was my child that that beast had raped or any other member of MY family, I would be in concurrence with the judge. IF it can be shown that these ppl wouldn't repeat these sort of crimes, after being brutalised in a way that they brutalised others, like raping of young children/women, there would be no hesitation on my part to say "use it." Of course this might or even will sound barbaric, but so was the act committed against this woman in this case. His physical scars will in no way shape nor form be as severe nor as "permanent" as the emotional/psychological scars [intense psychological therapy can ease the mental anguish, yes] and even physical scars as well, that she will be left with.

"Enuff is enuff.."

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] Why don't they just go the whole enchalada,and stone him in the town square??
Since batteribg humanbeing is swiftly becoming the acceptanle form of punishment, in these 'civil'ized times. [/qb]

If times are so civilised how do you account for the preponderace of crimes in many societies even malum prohibitum? Looks as if "civility" is just a textbook term; in brief, man has not evolved since we left the caves...and then there are "primitive societies" by definition, where these sort of crimes seemingly don't occur, at such high rates. I wonder, YY? Where did "civilised societies" go wrong? ..calling all anthropoligists.

[ivan miller]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb] Interesting historical background there Afer. I am not sure that I am following you here, and I quote:

The flogging with the cat-o-nine had nothing to do with crime in general, or of the Colony's crime rate, or its social order. It was a deterent to prevent former slaves or their decendants to pay themselves for past unpaid labour.

The second sentence is unclear, if you could elaborate, it would help me to understand better. Anyhow, I wondered if there was a correlation between the use of the cat-o-nine and the low recidivism rate of criminals then [agen not saying that the former is the cause of the latter, because there are no stats that I am privy to that would show this. [/qb]

You understand it fully well, you just tactfully pointing out that I wrongly spelled 'deterrent.' [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Anyway, the law was put into place to dissuade former slaves from stealing from their former slave masters. Omit the words, 'pay themselves.'

The Cat-O-Nine is a riding crop or whip which branches into nine corded tines or prongs. These are loaded and weighted with leaded marbles, hence the name Cat-O-nine.

There is the wooden barrel bolted on to two struts or skids like helecopter runners. At the upper side of the barrel there is a round hole large enough to insert the male genitlia.

On the four ends of the struts there is a leather strap with buckles to cuff the hands and feet.

From a wooden crossmember tnearer to the barrel, there is a buckled leather harness that loops around the neck to prevent head movement.

When the naked prisoner is securely piloried over the barrel, the flogger ran from a distance and diliver the blow with the Cat-O-Nine from the front.

The prison is then securely piloried over the barrel.

A receptacle is placed inside the barrel to catch the urinated blood

There will be several false attempts by the flogger to ensure that the prisoner will not reflexively tense but to be relax when the blows are delivered.

The blows are delivered straight down the back.

After a few of these blows the nervous system is distroyed. Longivity for this prisoner thereafter, is 6 months to three years as a cripple.

Cat-O-Nine flogging was slow legal murder.

Let us understand that this punishment was only for nuisance crimes, petty theft against whiteman's property. A few oranges or a bunch of bananas from a grove, in declared areas.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Usually the Cat-O-nine in most cases seriously damage or destroy the prisoner's kidneys in addition to other injuries.
They are usually unable to perform normal work as lafourors after.

the reason why crime is higher in civilized times than in the primitive days,may be that there were no legal system then, and what was used to settle crimes has now become illegal.
For instance the revenge killings (accepted as the main reason) taking place in Jamaica was once accepted as just,and is accepted as such in many Muslem cultures.
It is usually blood atonement

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Anyway, the law was put into place to dissuade former slaves from stealing from their former slave masters. Omit the words, 'pay themselves.'

Ahhhhh, thanks, those 2 words had me wondering for a moment..

Now, thanks also for that enlightening piece of history. You have cleared up some confusion in my mind as to what specifically the cat-o-nine was/is ie leaded marbles at the end..won't go into the gory imaginashun details of what these could do..

Let us understand that this punishment was only for nuisance crimes, petty theft against whiteman's property. A few oranges or a bunch of bananas from a grove, in declared areas.

Again, this sheds new light on the Cat and what it was used for, and hearing this then it only stands to reason that we don't need a replication of that. Now, Mr. Hartley [the author, kno im?] is pro cat. Desperate times call for desperate measures, even among the "educated" who should know better. He didn't mince his words. I guess living with the crime and the fear of it day in and day out and the judge who sees criminals also almost on a daily basis..hardens them to believe that these drastic forms of punishment might palliate the society of this cancer that will eventually leave noone to sing the requiem..

Afer!! kudos to you..

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Letter of the day - Slaughter of the innocents
published: Sunday | July 3, 2005

THE EDITOR, Sir:

Some weeks ago, you were gracious enough to publish a letter I wrote to you pointing out the potential danger to babies of having their diapers stolen from them at gunpoint. I seriously thought that such actions were as low as the parasites in our society could possibly descend. I can only admit that I was VERY wrong!

Two innocent young girls, barely out of their babyhood; their young lives snuffed out for no better reason than the sexual gratification of a 'thing', a member of our species who does not deserve the classification of 'human' being.

PRIVILEGE

I am a sincere believer that 'human' rights are a privilege, which have to be earned: the total disregard shown for the 'human rights' of these two young girls, by the perpetrator(s) of this horrendous crime, should ensure that a punishment, far, far beyond the capabilities of our 'justice' system, is applied. The thoughts that spring to mind include the words: medieval, dungeon, rack, boiling oil, castration with red hot irons, etc. Death is far too quick, and a tiny fraction of the pain and mental horror suffered by these two innocent girls, before being tortured to death, and dying, slowly, in mental and physical, agony.

I can only sit here, and imagine how I would have felt, if this had happened to my daughter, and my condolences (just a word, ineffectual in conveying my real horror and disgust at what has happened, and my sincere feelings of sorrow), to the family members.

CASTRATION

I am almost certain that, upon conviction of the perpetrator(s) of this horrendous crime, a plebiscite would result in a 'score' of 2.5 million votes for castration with red hot irons, without anaesthetic; and a few hundred votes against.

Fortunately, there is a potential 'silver lining' to this cloud: the possibility that the rape and murder, of these two young innocents will motivate our citizens to pick up the mobile and dial 811. Call Kingfish, and 'rat' on these perverts, parasites, predators, and criminals in our society, before any more innocents are lost.

I am, etc.,

ROBIN PLOUGH

[email protected]

34A Highland Close, Kingston 19

Letter of the day - Slaughter of the innocents

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Thanks for that piece of information TG.


Ya know, I've bin 'ere wondering what sort of punishment would be appropriate for crimes like rape of those innocent little children..I felt so much outrage I couldn't answer in your other thread, for the simple reason that I might say something that could cause me to be banned from this site..as to what they could really do with these criminals..I don't think heartless beasts as these can be rehabilitated. Mi hupset bout dis, so tomorrow mi might seh sinting different, but until then...

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

In my own opinion I think the Gleaner publishing this letter and making it letter, thus reinforcing Mr. Netia's stupid article showed just how barbaric some people (among them some of the most influential) are prepared to go rather than getting to the root of the problem

[Wahalla]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

All I can say is if mi ever catch the sun od a female dawg wey did teif mi piementa dat shoulda pay fi mi school shoes... im woulds wish fi deh cat ah nine tail..... When deh police did cum dem did sey ah socialist time guh pick sum more....

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by Wahalla:
[qb] When deh police did cum dem did sey ah socialist time guh pick sum more....
[/qb]

Sarry!

[ivan miller]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb] In my own opinion I think the Gleaner publishing this letter and making it letter, thus reinforcing Mr. Netia's stupid article showed just how barbaric some people (among them some of the most influential) are prepared to go rather than getting to the root of the problem [/qb]

TG my old buddy, truer words have never been said. It was an emotional letter, but a civil society cannot enact laws based on emotion. That would be tantamount to mob rule. Jamaica already has a huge problem with stone and machate justice.

Jamaica has never had a serious and comprehensive symposium on crime. There are numerous reasons and components to crime, justice and punishment. Poverty is not one of them because it only account for survival crimes like pickpocketing and shoplifting. Some of the most honest Jamacians that I know are dirt poor.

Every year that crime raises its ugly head the weak-minded government officials form a new strike force, always with the same dismal results.

The honorable Hugh Shearer had an air-tight solution to crime in the corporate Area, back in the sixties. "We should round up all the illerate youths and relocate them to the countrysides."

Now that crime is nationwide, no one has yet to come up with a better scheme.

If illegal guns are the problem, the government should sue them on their home turfs or on neutral grounds. Every victim's family or estate should have a companion suit.

Just as the United States are seeking extradition of Jamaicans for drugs crime, Jamaica should reciprocate with seeking recompence from the gun makers for the havoc that their products cause in Jamaica.

Freedom from fear and of movement are two gaurantees endowed by the constitution. I do not think there is one Jamaican who is enjoying either. Gun makers have effectively ursurped both for the profitable illegal gun trade. If only that they failed to see that their products reach their intended end-users.

[britisha]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

[QUOTE]Originally posted by baba afer:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb] In my own opinion I think the Gleaner publishing this letter and making it letter, thus reinforcing Mr. Netia's stupid article showed just how barbaric some people (among them some of the most influential) are prepared to go rather than getting to the root of the problem [/qb]

Well, in all fairness, the leter addresssed two issues, the bringing back of the Cat, as well as the assumption that physical punishment is the cause of the violence in Jamaica today. I primarily am more interested in the latter. I rebut, if physical punishment which was not clearly defined, is the cause of the voilence and havoc, why is it that more ppl in the society have NOT resorted to crime, since many were the recipients of "beatings" from their parents and school teachers?...and since the cat-o-nine has not been used in years, is it reasonable to blame it?

TG my old buddy, truer words have never been said. It was an emotional letter, but a civil society cannot enact laws based on emotion. That would be tantamount to mob rule. Jamaica already has a huge problem with stone and machate justice.

As I barefacedly implied, Jamaica's crime rate would throw it in the ranks of the "uncivil" where crime and voilence reign supreme, and this goes for any other country as well where the crime rate is tipping the scale negatively.

Be that as it may your comment is right on point.

I don't believe that the author of the letter is a part of the government, qualified to enact ANY law, especially law based on emotions..if any law is based on emotions, then it is not the law, it is something else.

Jamaica has never had a serious and comprehensive symposium on crime. There are numerous reasons and components to crime, justice and punishment. Poverty is not one of them because it only account for survival crimes like pickpocketing and shoplifting. Some of the most honest Jamacians that I know are dirt poor.

I tend to agree, however there should be NO excuse for any sort of crime. Consider the poor labourer who just cashed a paycheck, one earned from hard labour and a pickpocket robs him/her of what was honestly earned. Or consider the small bizniz entrepreneur, who do likkle hussling, sell dem bag juice and newspaper and cook food etc, and someone comes and rob them of what they managed to earn..Membah recently where one was killed over the porridge that he was selling..

Some ppl thief juss to thief, they wer born criminals and will die as criminals. I find it hard to believe that they would ever or could ever be rehabilitated... Some pickpockets/thieves live better than many in the society, and I say many; ie drive posh cars, wear the latest bling to give examples, live in nice houses etc, nobaddie would guess their "profession."

Every year that crime raises its ugly head the weak-minded government officials form a new strike force, always with the same dismal results.

Actually, no, it is not the same, it is actually worse..::razz::

The honorable Hugh Shearer had an air-tight solution to crime in the corporate Area, back in the sixties. "We should round up all the illerate youths and relocate them to the countrysides."

Now that crime is nationwide, no one has yet to come up with a better scheme.

Where is the Minister of Justice and the Bar Assn on this one?

If illegal guns are the problem, the government should sue them on their home turfs or on neutral grounds. Every victim's family or estate should have a companion suit.

If? Illegal guns ARE a big part of the problem, but the problem has been allowed to fester for so long, now some criminals are making guns at home.

Again, in my first thread here, I'd been suggesting this, that gun manufacturers should be made to bear the consequences of crimes committed with their product..in a nutshell..

Just as the United States are seeking extradition of Jamaicans for drugs crime, Jamaica should reciprocate with seeking recompence from the gun makers for the havoc that their products cause in Jamaica.

Take it a step further, maybe Jamaica should sue those countries from whence the white stuff is imported illegally into Jamaica as well..if they are manning their borders effectively some of the havoc in our country wouldn't be happening..Why haven't the govts of all these smaller countries where trafficking has taken root band together and demand more action from these countries of origin?..hiff oono read mi..where there's a will there's a way..no?

Freedom from fear and of movement are two gaurantees endowed by the constitution. I do not think there is one Jamaican who is enjoying either. Gun makers have effectively ursurped both for the profitable illegal gun trade. If only that they failed to see that their products reach their intended end-users.

btw, from what I read the guns are illegally imported from many countries including those in North America and Europe. The question becomes, how does one trace these weapons and their bullets?..this would call for superb ballistic and forensic capabilities...but then, I guess this is not important enough to be given any serious attention..which leads into the question, why would ppl need to import illegal weapons in the first place? The weapons didn't juss tek up foot and walked into the country; they are there because criminals want them to murder others, use in crimes plus the fact that others allow them [the weapons] in...jack mandorah...

We have a responsibility as well to take accountability for our own actions, as someone had asked on this BB, "because someone puts a gun in your hand, does that mean you have to pull the trigger?" Why do foreign criminals are now setting up shop in our country? One would imagine they are aided and abetted locally because of illegal gains, no? This could take a whole dissertation, but mi beat hup mi gum enuff pan diss arredi, soh..

In terms of barbaric responses to criminals' actions, ie committing crime, bwouy mi a tel yuh, we had never heard of these types of mob justice before. I do NOT condone it for many reasons, including that basically this is wrong, and as dem seh "2 wrangs no mek one aright.." Unfortunately, the reality is, this is the level to which some people are reduced, tek dere own "justice" since the government is weak in bringing about a significant curtailment of crime, weak in dealing with violent and CAREER criminals, some who have friends in high[er] places..until this is curtailed, regretfully, I pessimistically will say that we are going to see more of this..fighting fire with fire seems to be the norm now..oh how we have regressed!!
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by baba afer:
[qb] It was an emotional letter, but a civil society cannot enact laws based on emotion. That would be tantamount to mob rule. Jamaica already has a huge problem with stone and machate justice.[/qb]

Correct

[qb]Jamaica has never had a serious and comprehensive symposium on crime. There are numerous reasons and components to crime, justice and punishment. Poverty is not one of them because it only account for survival crimes like pickpocketing and shoplifting. Some of the most honest Jamacians that I know are dirt poor.[/qb]

Not only that while paying huge sums of money for these services the poor do not receive what they paying for by any stretch of the imagination. So personal ability to fund your existence whilst not the major cause is a significant factor. There is no such thing as the happy poor when the equation is:
-money-safety net+increasing demands+poor service.

[qb]Every year that crime raises its ugly head the weak-minded government officials form a new strike force, always with the same dismal results.[/qb]

....And they will continue to try with the same method as long as they are in power and the people do not ask the right questions and demand answers.

[qb]The honorable Hugh Shearer had an air-tight solution to crime in the corporate Area, back in the sixties. "We should round up all the illerate youths and relocate them to the countrysides."

Now that crime is nationwide, no one has yet to come up with a better scheme.[/qb]

Was that true? As an aside to that being from Kingston I can say without fear of contradiction that all or most of the so-called bad men that were killed or got hot in Kingston migrated to the country (whether in a casket or by country bus) to cool out.

[qb]Just as the United States are seeking extradition of Jamaicans for drugs crime, Jamaica should reciprocate with seeking recompence from the gun makers for the havoc that their products cause in Jamaica.[/qb]

This is a foolish argument the USA makes cars; cars kill a fair degree of persons in Jamaica.
Added to that the cars, just like the guns are imported by individuals, from all over the world based on their preferences, their own specific needs and come in all shapes sizes and colours.

There is no proof that the USA or any Gun Manufacturers are targeting (no pun) Jamaica.

[qb]Freedom from fear and of movement are two gaurantees endowed by the constitution. I do not think there is one Jamaican who is enjoying either. Gun makers have effectively ursurped both for the profitable illegal gun trade. If only that they failed to see that their products reach their intended end-users. [/qb]

Again you are right in part, most Jamaicans do not enjoy freedom of movement, I don't know if the constitution guarantees the freedom from fear, it must be fear of something because that would be an awesome challenge to guarantee a person will not have to fear anything.
Anyway that is a small point, my major issue with what you are saying is again this putting the onus on gun manufactures. Jamaicans import guns to feed their addiction, the gun manufacturers have no part in the importation of guns to Jamaica outside of the forces of law and order, some members of which should never be in the security force, much less be armed with even a machete.

Speaking of machetes you alluded to the fact that there is a fair degree of stone and machete injustice, what say you should we sue Mother Nature and the machete manufactures?

[mountaingal]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Tuff Gong, i wouldn't equate guns with cars, machete or mother nature. the primary purpose of guns is to kill. i'd say the primary purpose of the other items are not to kill.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Ole time practicality versus modern day theory? Puh-leeeze

Originally posted by mountaingal:
[qb] Tuff Gong, i wouldn't equate guns with cars, machete or mother nature. the primary purpose of guns is to kill. i'd say the primary purpose of the other items are not to kill. [/qb]

The only reason for guns is to kill or shoot targets I accept that.