'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

[johnnycakes]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

Are you all crazy?
Adding more guns to an already violent society is a prescription for an increased slaughter.
As always Jamaicans are addressing a symptom of the problem that is poverty engendered by an economic system that clearly does not work in Jamaica and most of the impoverished Third World.
That poverty means that a large segment of the population will FOREVER be denied a proper education, a chance for a good job and any hope for hopeful future.

Of course that will breed crime, drug addiction, criminal gangs, corruption at all levels of the society.

No, the answer is not a fully armed populace. That is as crazy and unworkable a proposition as I have ever heard. It's like throwing gasoline on a fire to put it out.

The sad part is that Jamaicans will cling to the corrupt political system (democratic totalitarianism) and unworkable economic system (totalitarian capitalism) and then cry out against the violence and corruption that comes of that system which is based on greed, that ensures that a handful will live lives of luxury ( "building three storey mansions" to quote a rabid an of capitalism) while the young men of Jamaica by the hundreds of thousands are denied the possibility of a hopeful future.

Stop talking this "more guns" nonsense and start working on the answer to the real problems.

You cannot address the problem of gun violence without addressing the cause.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

Every citizen in every country should have the right to hold legal fire arm as long as they ahre deemed fit. Not just the white and honorary whites ones.
Guns don't transfer people into murderers irrespective of how poor they are.

[Wahalla]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

nuh mine doc... I am not anti weapon ownership.. I just think that if it was more ownership then it would those who cant afford to own who would become the victim....Funny thing is in the 70's the anti gun stance was promient.. Now unfortunately it seems almost a necciesity in Jamaica to hava a gun... Even the aura of gun ownership has become a deterent.. Be known to own a gun and a harbour shark will think twice about visting you...

I am a country man at heart.. And it is not one or two guys who try a ting in the agricultule have had to own illegal fire arms for protection... Part of the STE the gun trade is not to arm criminals.. It is also honest men and women a look sumting... They will become criminilised by not being able to get a weapon legally...

There are cases now where literal wild west rustling takes place.. trucks pull up and animals are loaded onto them.. The cases of this happeneing has now fallen.. why because of an influx of illegal weapons into the hands of honest men.. There was a shootout I know of where it is reputed a couple guys got shot and the authrorties claimed they did it...

We are is a weird kind of half failed / half working state in Jamaica.. The failed state situations requires every one to be armed.. The operating state wants to control it...

But all I can say be a ganja farmer and not have a gun and sleep in your feild when its time to reap... Some one else will reap the benifit...

Talk about address causes does not help you survie.. My problem is I know those that are not armed are more likely to be killed in Jamaica.. I may not be comfortable with this, but if I was to take up residency in Jamaica the first thing I would do is get a legal fire arm.. The seacond thing is get an illegal one as well...Then see about a telephone....

Funny thing though is I dont like them.. But until the state can protect the citzenship, it cannot prevent the citzens from protecting themselves.. For the revolutionary souls once the sans cullotes cannot simple attack the others they will then turn toe the state and pull it down.. so they who seek revolutionary should aplaud private ownership of guns... After all Pancho Villa was a theif before he became a revolutionary and an ethnic cleanser.. So was Stalin friend the Armenian gangster Kapo...

Funny thing though... a "buisness man" I know of is reputed not to own one

[neutral]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HemGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SistaCtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">to me that would be just another war zone, if everybaddie had gun, no sah, dat naa go mek it!!

now the jcan system me know is like dis, de police know a who do it, and dem a go fe him, fe im days numbered!

de problem is, is only until after it happen dem a go know who fe tek out,

poor ooman and her kids, [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70384-praying.gif[/img]


</div></div><span style='font-size: 14pt'> Yes because Jamaicans are uncivilized, at least the black ones.. Only people in civilized society know how to behave when in possession of such a sophisticated piece of equipment. They use to say that as recent as world war 2 about blacks and aircraft not to mention guns. They were the most disciplined as history would show.
the same black American who was treated as only good enough to wash decks of the ships .
They grab machine guns and shoot down Japanese bombers.
They did not turn them on the whites that according to this logic would have been the result. Nobody remember that!! they including many black educated and not spo educated are just as guilty of downing the people.
we have no respect for people that look like us,but we want respect for ourselves from others. There was a requirement for all whites to have a weapon in the household and to be issued fire arms license in Jamaica up to independence. Not so for the blacks, they wer3 prevented like we try to do now by repeating the justification of the colonialisms and racist. How far have we come??
ther are a miriad of ways that Jamaicans can kill each other at present that are easily available and known to them.
But because we are mentally enslaved into thinking that we are self destructive we can't even see that.
I have more than faith in Jamaicans abillity to behave responsibly with fire arms just as white people have done for centuries.
Ofcourse soem will use it irresponsibly, but if they don't have guns they will use whatever they get irresponsibly to create the same amount of mahem.
When foreigners talk bad against us we are quick to take them on,but not because we don't agree with what they say. It is because we don't want them to trespass on our right to do it our selves. </span> </div></div>

i think this is an example of conflation, Dr. D. racism towards blacks and the effects of easy gun ownership are two separate issues you seem to be trying to make into one, and it's not really a convincing argument, in my view.

the people in Jamaica who wanted gun ownership for themselves and not for black Jamaicans probably wanted guns to shoot the very black Jamaicans they are denying the ownership. so mi no see the value in allowing black jamaicans legal guns so they can join in with white jamaicans in shooting down other black jamaicans.

as far as mi concern there should be tight restrictions if not outright ban on gun ownership outside of law enforcement or a security enterprise. and police should do more against the flow of illegal arms.

</div></div>

There are two things wrong with the logic you are projecting in your argument.
and both seem top be based on the foundation that black Jamaicans are either genetically programmed, too uncivilized, or just primitive ,and not yet evolved to the point where they can behaved like other people, or simply with under developed sense of justice .
The first is with The arguments alluding to if black Jamaicans get guns they will shoot down other black Jamaicans.
Why is it that the white Jamaicans have the guns and neither shoot down other whites, nor black Jamaicans.?
You see my point of questioning your logic?
the other point is with your suggestion that a total ban on private gun ownership will make the country safer?. So the police and the army are the only people with all that power to kill at will be the guardian angels,and the citizens, the black ones are the devil incarnate. I wonder what special training they get to transform them into angels, or is it the close supervision??
</div></div>

to answer your first point,I didnt exactly make reference to anyone of a particular colour,however if you are going to put it that way then yes,...it is the Black Jamaicans that are doing most of the killing with the guns,however,I do understand that this is mainly due to the fact that the poorest sections of Jamaica are black,and there is a correlation between poverty and the spate of murders.

Secondly,I suggested that all Jamaicans should be disarmed,including the police,even *they* are not fit to be anywhere near a loaded weapon,..I personally dont think the army should be used to fight crime,but thats another issue entirely.

So as to be totally clear about where I stand on this issue,..it is this,....from the evidence so far in my opinion,it would seem that Jamaicans are not capable of carrying loaded weapons without the urge to murder each other with them at the slightest provocation,I wouldnt exactly describe it as uncivilised,or primitive,but it does point in the direction of a casual approach to death and retribution.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

<span style='font-size: 11pt'> Well, I grow up in the Barbican Jack's Hill Billy Dunn areas Of Kingston, and I can tell you that every family I knew owned licensed firearms. In my home there were about 4 weapons. And I knew just about every family that had kids my age.
We use to shoot birds in the Jacks Hill bush as teens, or really just shoot at birds. since we didn't hit the birds the majority of the time. We did it after school, on week ends, even outside of bird season.
As a young boy I use to go bird hunting with my family and neighbors too . I have not know of one incident in which a member was shot even by accident during the many years I have lived there. We were all Jamaicans of many hews. So I have to disagree with you about your assessment that we are too primitive, to co-exist with fire arm. I suppose that is what the colonialists want us to accept, as a first step to accepting that we need to return to colonialism to function as civilized countries do. I do not subscribe to that school of thought, sorry.</span>

[neutral]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

Lets face it Dudd,the Jamaica you knew as a boy taking pot shots at birds is a far different Jamaica than the present one,...do you really think you could take pot shots at birds now with even a water pistol without being gunned down by a trigger happy policeman or soldier.

I think its all too easy sometimes to allow nostalgia to cloud ones judgement about Jamaica,it is simply not the Jamaica we all knew as teenagers,..it has become a far more very vicious violent place than in those far off nostalgic bird shooting days,I think you should look at it in that context.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nuh mine doc... I am not anti weapon ownership.. I just think that if it was more ownership then it would those who cant afford to own who would become the victim....Funny thing is in the 70's the anti gun stance was promient.. Now unfortunately it seems almost a necciesity in Jamaica to hava a gun... Even the aura of gun ownership has become a deterent.. Be known to own a gun and a harbour shark will think twice about visting you...

I am a country man at heart.. And it is not one or two guys who try a ting in the agricultule have had to own illegal fire arms for protection... Part of the STE the gun trade is not to arm criminals.. It is also honest men and women a look sumting... They will become criminilised by not being able to get a weapon legally...

There are cases now where literal wild west rustling takes place.. trucks pull up and animals are loaded onto them.. The cases of this happeneing has now fallen.. why because of an influx of illegal weapons into the hands of honest men.. There was a shootout I know of where it is reputed a couple guys got shot and the authrorties claimed they did it...

We are is a weird kind of half failed / half working state in Jamaica.. The failed state situations requires every one to be armed.. The operating state wants to control it...

But all I can say be a ganja farmer and not have a gun and sleep in your feild when its time to reap... Some one else will reap the benifit...

Talk about address causes does not help you survie.. My problem is I know those that are not armed are more likely to be killed in Jamaica.. I may not be comfortable with this, but if I was to take up residency in Jamaica the first thing I would do is get a legal fire arm.. The seacond thing is get an illegal one as well...Then see about a telephone....

Funny thing though is I don't like them.. But until the state can protect the citzenship, it cannot prevent the citzens from protecting themselves.. For the revolutionary souls once the sans cullotes cannot simple attack the others they will then turn toe the state and pull it down.. so they who seek revolutionary should aplaud private ownership of guns... After all Pancho Villa was a theif before he became a revolutionary and an ethnic cleanser.. So was Stalin friend the Armenian gangster Kapo...

Funny thing though... a "buisness man" I know of is reputed not to own one </div></div><span style='font-size: 11pt'> All well thinking people who are familiar with Jamaican culture knows that if legal firearms are readily available to the average Jamaican, the crime problem will be of the past. I'm not saying that there will be No crime, but not the free reign of assassins that are able to walk up to a group of citizens in broad day light, and pick out his target and murder her and just walk away matter of factly.
This is not an exception, it is the normal way things work. People cannot be totally disarmed. Criminals will always find way to get arms.
Arms can be dropped from an aircraft on a fly pass, without even landing.
arms can be dropped at sea by supplier,and retreived with little suspicion. weapons can be hired out by corrupt police officers,. They can just raid the armory, and not use their personal weapon. They can sell arms taken from criminals too.

Weapons can be manufactured as has been done in the past.
Nobody is fooling anybody when they shout disarm the people.
They are simply strengthening the hands of the criminals. this
idea of disarming th ecitizenry,is for non thinkers.
Everybody else knows that it is unworkable. So lets just face that reality. I don't like guns myself. They are just too heavy for their size,and too uncomfortable to carry around.. </span>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets face it Dudd,the Jamaica you knew as a boy taking pot shots at birds is a far different Jamaica than the present one,...do you really think you could take pot shots at birds now with even a water pistol without being gunned down by a trigger happy policeman or soldier.

I think its all too easy sometimes to allow nostalgia to cloud ones judgement about Jamaica,it is simply not the Jamaica we all knew as teenagers,..it has become a far more very vicious violent place than in those far off nostalgic bird shooting days,I think you should look at it in that context. </div></div> <span style='font-size: 11pt'> believe it or not every year Jamaican has a bird season where a lot of Jamaicans still go out and shoot at birds, and no bad man ever attempt to greet them out in the woods.
Yes the only thing that has changed is that criminals can shoot people at will at other places. They still do not do that unless they are very discreet. and that will happen in every society as long as people want to kill people.</span>

[RichD]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> All well thinking people who are familiar with Jamaican culture knows that if legal firearms are readily available to the average Jamaican, the crime problem will be of the past. I'm not saying that there will be No crime, but not the free reign of assassins that are able to walk up to a group of citizens in broad day light, and pick out his target and murder her and just walk away matter of factly.
</div></div>

so doc how that seem to happen so commonly in the US...and to people who are know to be armed an willing to shoot too?

ETA: so when yuh hear peopel talking bout how gunman target people in jamaica fi dem gun is foolishness dem talking?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> All well thinking people who are familiar with Jamaican culture knows that if legal firearms are readily available to the average Jamaican, the crime problem will be of the past. I'm not saying that there will be No crime, but not the free reign of assassins that are able to walk up to a group of citizens in broad day light, and pick out his target and murder her and just walk away matter of factly.
</div></div>

so doc how that seem to happen so commonly in the US...and to people who are know to be armed an willing to shoot too?

ETA: so when yuh hear peopel talking bout how gunman target people in jamaica fi dem gun is foolishness dem talking? </div></div><span style='font-size: 11pt'> What is it that commonly happen in the US??
and remember we are talking about th eJamaican culture. It is not the same as US or any other culture.
On th eother point:
I don't listen to what most people say, because most people do not have the abillity to analyse the threat.
So you subscribe to that statement too??
Common sense is a useful tool but it is not always the appropriate tool in every case.
Common sense would say if gun men target gun owners when there are a few of them.
It should follow that they would target all people because the ewhole population if they all have guns.
that is what you are suggesting.
Now real life experience suggest that bad men rely on the gun owner the only gun owner in thee vicinity.

So if there are a hi proportion of the population are gun owners, this would neutralize this motivation to attack.
Reality shows that gun men does not rob gun owners in communities where there is a high proportion of owners living there.
So that is another non starter.
Another known fact is that gun men avoid attacking other people who they know have guns if they are in company with other gun owners.
It follows that owning a gun is more effective as a deterent, when the gun owner is not one of a few, that can be attacked when he is not in the ecompany of other gun owners.
The gun men know that there are lots of guns in the garrisons, why the other gun men don't go in and take those now. You know why,because gun men are thinking people.
They may not be very smart thinkers, but they are thinkers.
they are able to evaluate risk. they only act when the odds is in their favour.
As soon as ordinary people are allowed to legally own guns, the gun men will turn to white collar crimes or something less risky to make their living. I really did not expect to get these sort of reasoning from such well educated posters. Not everything yiu hear yo should bring in an argument.
What's up here?? </span>

[RichD]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Reality shows that gun men does not rob gun owners in communities where there is a high proportion of owners living there.
</div></div> i hear you quote that several times ..i dont buy it at all.


how do you explain the low crime rate in a country like canada where gun ownership is almost unheard of.

[RichD]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What is it that commonly happen in the US??
</div></div> criminals brazenly shooting down there target and walking away ..all you have to do is read the news paper any day

[RichD]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

annoda question for you doc since you focusing on the jamaican context....what proportion of shootings in jamaica do you think are crimes of opportunity?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Reality shows that gun men does not rob gun owners in communities where there is a high proportion of owners living there.
</div></div> i hear you quote that several times ..i dont buy it at all.


how do you explain the low crime rate in a country like canada where gun ownership is almost unheard of. </div></div> Simple canada has a functioning police and judicial system. In canada witnesses are not murdered. Jamaica is like living out in Western Canadian bushes. where ther is no established and functionong legal system every body wear their weapons.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What is it that commonly happen in the US??
</div></div> criminals brazenly shooting down there target and walking away ..all you have to do is read the news paper any day </div></div> Thi sonly happens in areas where therr is a lack oor derth of klegalk gun owners. In 3 sections of Boston they have gun killings on a weekly basis, in th eareas where there are lots of weapons and working policew force, we have none.