Landlines

**Tuff Gong** · 08-22-2008, 09:12 AM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">There is a saying that goes like this, "<span style="font-weight: bold">it is better not to say anything, and have people wonder if you're a fool, than to start talking and convincing them that you're a fool...</span>"</span> </div></div>

LOL..<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">You have said it correctly</span> that is what I was trying to convey to you that in your idiotic attempt to try to cover your lack of overstanding about how things work (with a bunch of gibberish that is not germane to the argument about choice of devices, Landlines, Cellular or something else) you have proven how stupid and irrelevant you are.
I mean is a joke to move from not even knowing was FOIS to now becoming an expert in all kinds of Telecommunication system.... I mean please give us a little more credit for seeing through <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">BS</span>.

Yet <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you</span> have done nothing to debunk the myth that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you</span> tried to foist upon us that an ordinary user on a Cable Broadband System will be able to see and interfere with another. As well as to prove conclusively that Cable Companies will be so lackadaisical to cause their service to degrade as they sell more usage. This <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">is where the argument started and so far we have not move beyond that</span>.

**bee_bop** · 08-22-2008, 09:55 PM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">There is a saying that goes like this, "<span style="font-weight: bold">it is better not to say anything, and have people wonder if you're a fool, than to start talking and convincing them that you're a fool...</span>"</span> </div></div>

LOL..<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">You have said it correctly</span> that is what I was trying to convey to you that in your idiotic attempt to try to cover your lack of overstanding about how things work (with a bunch of gibberish that is not germane to the argument about choice of devices, Landlines, Cellular or something else) you have proven how stupid and irrelevant you are.
I mean is a joke to move from not even knowing was FOIS to now becoming an expert in all kinds of Telecommunication system.... I mean please give us a little more credit for seeing through <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">BS</span>.

Yet <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you</span> have done nothing to debunk the myth that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you</span> tried to foist upon us that an ordinary user on a Cable Broadband System will be able to see and interfere with another. As well as to prove conclusively that Cable Companies will be so lackadaisical to cause their service to degrade as they sell more usage. This <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">is where the argument started and so far we have not move beyond that</span>.
</div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">FIOS is a <span style="font-weight: bold">branded product</span>, offered by only <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span>, and not a standard. The proper category of this type of service is Fiber To The Premise (FTTP)..
That's like expecting someone to know all the brands of beer, rather than knowing what beer is.
If you think that what I write is nonesense, why do you persist in responding in the negative, wouldn't it be easier to ignore foolishness??? I provided links, but apparently you either can't read, or don't bother to read...</span>

**Tuff Gong** · 08-22-2008, 11:18 PM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">FIOS is a <span style="font-weight: bold">branded product</span>, offered by only <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span>, and not a standard. The proper category of this type of service is Fiber To The Premise (FTTP)..
That's like expecting someone to know all the brands of beer, rather than knowing what beer is.
If you think that what I write is nonesense, why do you persist in responding in the negative, wouldn't it be easier to ignore foolishness??? I provided links, but apparently you either can't read, or don't bother to read...</span> </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Alice</span> I don't expect you to know all the brands of beer, but if you are going to hold out yourself as the oracle of Telecommunications one expect you to at least know a popular iterations of service, even more so when you totally went out of your way to point out the supposed deficiency of one system over another.
Do you expect us to believe you when you make outrageous claims but refuse to provide a shred of evidence to back it up?

**bee_bop** · 08-22-2008, 11:58 PM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">FIOS is a <span style="font-weight: bold">branded product</span>, offered by only <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span>, and not a standard. The proper category of this type of service is Fiber To The Premise (FTTP)..
That's like expecting someone to know all the brands of beer, rather than knowing what beer is.
If you think that what I write is nonesense, why do you persist in responding in the negative, wouldn't it be easier to ignore foolishness??? I provided links, but apparently you either can't read, or don't bother to read...</span> </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Alice</span> I don't expect you to know all the brands of beer, but if you are going to hold out yourself as the oracle of Telecommunications one expect you to at least know a popular iterations of service, even more so when you totally went out of your way to point out the supposed deficiency of one system over another.
Do you expect us to believe you when you make outrageous claims but refuse to provide a shred of evidence to back it up?
</div></div>

<span style="color: #660000">If your reference to '<span style="font-weight: bold">Alice</span>' is one of your <span style="font-weight: bold">homosexual fantasies</span> such as your suggestion that I was "<span style="font-weight: bold">ramming something down your throat</span>," which you obviously could have avoided, but chose to continue to indulge yourself, then you have my sincere pity. I also apologised for trying to ram anything down your throat, but it seems you couldn't care either way....<span style="font-weight: bold">psychologists can help with such unusual fantasies, and delusions, especially as you seem to find the message post so interesting</span>.

I only appear to be an oracle of telecommunications because <span style="font-weight: bold">you know so little</span>, so the small contribution I have made here seems significant due to your inadequacies. You, on the other hand can only describe an ability to <span style="font-style: italic">phreak</span>, whatever that means, and considering your inclinations, I don't want to know either.

What you consider to be a "a popular iterations of service," doesn't take into consideration that Verizon is the LEC for the North-Eastern United States, I don't necessarily live in that region, so what is popular there doesn't necessarily apply to me. The LEC I deal with could be one of the non-Verizon ones, so Verizon's popular brands are not necessarily common, or popular where I live. Sounds like common-sense deduction, eh???

I don't have to back up the claims I made, which are; <span style="font-weight: bold">that DSL is a non-shared high speed service</span>, as opposed to Cable's broadband service, <span style="font-weight: bold">each of which have advantages, as well as disadvantages</span>. Or, that cable is like a big network, the literature I referred to suggests that up to 1,000 computers can be connected to the cable, in one neighbourhood. You merely need to avail yourself of the extensively available literature on both technologies to know how they work.</span>

**kia027** · 08-23-2008, 01:21 AM

Re: Landlines

I am not in the 'discussion' between you two but wanted to clarify this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">doesn't take into consideration that <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon is the LEC for the North-Eastern United States, </span></div></div>

Actually the Verizon Landline footprint is along both US Coasts (with the exception of the New England states of Maine,New Hamsphire & Vermont) the mid and southwest as well. VZ has LEC presence in 26 of the US states.

**bee_bop** · 08-23-2008, 10:08 AM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not in the 'discussion' between you two but wanted to clarify this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">doesn't take into consideration that <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon is the LEC for the North-Eastern United States, </span></div></div>

Actually the Verizon Landline footprint is along both US Coasts (with the exception of the New England states of Maine,New Hamsphire & Vermont) the mid and southwest as well. VZ has LEC presence in 26 of the US states. </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">The abbreviation <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, refers to <span style="font-weight: bold">Local Exchange Carrier</span>, which <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span> happens to be in the North-eastern states of the U.S., such as New York. It also used to be called a <span style="font-weight: bold">Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC)</span>. These <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>s own, and maintain, all the facilities (which includes metallic/copper, or fiber cables), within their area. If they have to operate <span style="font-weight: bold">outside</span> of this area, they lease from a local <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, and they become a <span style="font-weight: bold">Competitive LEC</span>, or <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span>. So if <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span> were to operate in say Alabama, they would become a <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span> for <span style="font-weight: bold">AT&T</span> (formerly <span style="font-weight: bold">BellSouth</span>), and use whatever facilities are available in that area (such as copper, or fiber).
So, its unlikely that <span style="font-weight: bold">FiOS</span> will be available, in say, Alabama, or Georgia, or Florida, as examples. So merely having a footprint, as you say, does not mean that they are an <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span> in all the areas that are relevant. They would be an <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, in the north-eastern area, and a <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span>, in other areas. Thus <span style="font-weight: bold">AT&T</span> can offer services in areas where <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span> is the <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, as a <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span> to <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span>.</span>

**kia027** · 08-23-2008, 11:53 AM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not in the 'discussion' between you two but wanted to clarify this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">doesn't take into consideration that <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon is the LEC for the North-Eastern United States, </span></div></div>

Actually the Verizon Landline footprint is along both US Coasts (with the exception of the New England states of Maine,New Hamsphire & Vermont) the mid and southwest as well. VZ has LEC presence in 26 of the US states. </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">The abbreviation <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, refers to <span style="font-weight: bold">Local Exchange Carrier</span>, which <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span> happens to be in the North-eastern states of the U.S., such as New York. It also used to be called a <span style="font-weight: bold">Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC)</span>. These <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>s own, and maintain, all the facilities (which includes metallic/copper, or fiber cables), within their area. If they have to operate <span style="font-weight: bold">outside</span> of this area, they lease from a local <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, and they become a <span style="font-weight: bold">Competitive LEC</span>, or <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span>. So if <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span> were to operate in say Alabama, they would become a <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span> for <span style="font-weight: bold">AT&T</span> (formerly <span style="font-weight: bold">BellSouth</span>), and use whatever facilities are available in that area (such as copper, or fiber).
So, its unlikely that <span style="font-weight: bold">FiOS</span> will be available, in say, Alabama, or Georgia, or Florida, as examples. So merely having a footprint, as you say, does not mean that they are an <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span> in all the areas that are relevant. They would be an <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, in the north-eastern area, and a <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span>, in other areas. Thus <span style="font-weight: bold">AT&T</span> can offer services in areas where <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span> is the <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, as a <span style="font-weight: bold">CLEC</span> to <span style="font-weight: bold">Verizon</span>.</span> </div></div>

Littleman

I know what a LATA is; I helped write the standards for ordering & provisioning for LECs, CLECs and IXCs between these entities as an industy co-chair, I have also answered testimony for 271, 272 so please dont attempt to belittle my answer. I of all people know who is a CLEC and LEC in any given territory

Verizon -
Started out post divestiture (1984) as NYNEX
New York Telephone (NY and Byram & Greenwich CT)
New England Telephone (ME, NH,VT,MA,RI)

Then they merged with Bell Atlantic around 1997 changing their name to Bell Atlantic and later Verizon

Then they merged with GTE which has presence all over the nation such as but are not limited to FLORIDA, TEXAS, CALIFORNIA, Hawaii,Pennsylvania and many other states.

So by virtue of purchasing/merging with other companies. Verizon is <span style="font-weight: bold">in fact </span> a LEC in all of these states.

As a matter of fact, FIOS was first<span style="font-weight: bold"> trialed and deployed in Florida .</span> and in order to fully invest in FIOS Verizon has started to sell off their LEC business in some areas to fund the rollout of FIOS.

Verizon sold their Hawaii assets to the Hawaii employees who now call that company Hawaii Telecom. Verizon is no longer a LEC in Hawaii

and recently Verizon closed on its deal to sell its assets in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont to Fairpoint Communications. Verizon is no longer a LEC in these states.

**kia027** · 08-23-2008, 12:04 PM

Re: Landlines

an older map but a picture is worth a thousand words they say
Verizon footprint (ME, NH & VT are FRP now). The lavender shows where Verizon is a LEC

**bee_bop** · 08-23-2008, 12:24 PM

Re: Landlines

<span style="font-weight: bold">I was aware of this tariff map, which I consulted before writing the post to which you are responding, so it is nothing to new me. <span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-size: 14pt">
All the tariffs cover different areas of LEC, and CLEC operations.</span></span></span>

This is the same map showing Verizon's FCC tariff 1, <span style="font-weight: bold">as opposed to the map you show with all the tariffs combined.
</span>

This is another map showing FCC tariff 11.

Maybe Verizon is LEC in some of the states of the UNited States of America, but still not in the area that I live, so naturally, <span style="font-weight: bold">as I was trying to explain to Tuff Gong, I wouldn't be aware of Verizon's product offerings</span>.

**kia027** · 08-23-2008, 12:30 PM

Re: Landlines

Would you like a soft editable copy of the tariffs? I have them if you like.. I have the FCC 1 and 11

the point of the map was to provide a visual where Verizon is a LEC not to get tariff specific.

Choir

**bee_bop** · 08-23-2008, 12:39 PM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you like a soft editable copy of the tariffs? I have them if you like.. I have the FCC 1 and 11

the point of the map was to provide a visual where Verizon is a LEC not to get tariff specific. </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">The map you show is a <span style="text-decoration: underline">composite</span> of all the tariffs relevant to Verizon, ALL COVERING DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF LEC AND CLEC RELEVANCIES.</span>
So no thanks, I think I have what I need. Plus I physically, and <span style="font-weight: bold">personally</span>, know where Verizon is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-size: 14pt">not</span></span></span> an <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, so it doesn't matter to me what you want to provide, most likely another <span style="text-decoration: underline">vague</span>, <span style="text-decoration: underline">composite</span> map.</span>

**kia027** · 08-23-2008, 12:46 PM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you like a soft editable copy of the tariffs? I have them if you like.. I have the FCC 1 and 11

the point of the map was to provide a visual where Verizon is a LEC not to get tariff specific. </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">The map you show is a <span style="text-decoration: underline">composite</span> of all the tariffs relevant to Verizon, ALL COVERING DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF LEC AND CLEC RELEVANCIES.</span>
So no thanks, I think I have what I need. Plus I physically, and <span style="font-weight: bold">personally</span>, know where Verizon is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-size: 14pt">not</span></span></span> an <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, so it doesn't matter to me what you want to provide, most likely another <span style="text-decoration: underline">vague</span>, <span style="text-decoration: underline">composite</span> map.</span>
</div></div>

I know you personally dont know where Verizon is and I have shown you their footprint. Remember in addition to the FCC tariffs they have state tariffs as well where carriers (whoever they may be as long as they are certified to offer the appropriate services have the option of using either or both)

Have a good day Littleman !

**bee_bop** · 08-23-2008, 01:07 PM

Re: Landlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you like a soft editable copy of the tariffs? I have them if you like.. I have the FCC 1 and 11

the point of the map was to provide a visual where Verizon is a LEC not to get tariff specific. </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">The map you show is a <span style="text-decoration: underline">composite</span> of all the tariffs relevant to Verizon, ALL COVERING DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF LEC AND CLEC RELEVANCIES.</span>
So no thanks, I think I have what I need. Plus I physically, and <span style="font-weight: bold">personally</span>, know where Verizon is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-size: 14pt">not</span></span></span> an <span style="font-weight: bold">LEC</span>, so it doesn't matter to me what you want to provide, most likely another <span style="text-decoration: underline">vague</span>, <span style="text-decoration: underline">composite</span> map.</span>
</div></div>

I know you personally dont know where Verizon is and I have shown you their footprint. Remember in addition to the FCC tariffs they have state tariffs as well where carriers (whoever they may be as long as they are certified to offer the appropriate services have the option of using either or both)

Have a good day Littleman ! </div></div>

Littleman says:
<span style="color: #660000">You make vague references to tariffs, as if all are the same, and as if some are not relevant only to CLECs, as opposed to LECs.
As I have said before, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I was letting Tuff Gong know that Verizon isn't in the area that I reside...also, I know where Verizon is <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> an LEC, so whatever vague information you have has no relevance, or concern, to me...</span>All the info you are posting, or suggesting, are a lot of superfluous considerations that have no relevance to the matter at hand, which is that FiOS is not advertised in my area.</span>In addition, FiOS is not likely to be in my area, since Verizon is not an LEC here, and there would have to be a change in tariff regulations for it to be, or they would have to buy-out the LEC in my area, which is not likely, or there would have to be a change in technology.</span>

**kia027** · 08-23-2008, 01:17 PM

Re: Landlines

and you were shown info on FIOS and you were shown the states where VZ has presence as a LEC. What more would you like?

Landlines

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