is water a human rite?

[RichD]

You have missed the point completely. Fire Service personel can shut off the water and the water department would not have to send personel out at all. We could shut off water during home inspections of smoke detector program which we do already in between fire calls. Fire houses are located in every neighborhood. Very easily accomplished at no extra cost to municipality.

i think you have missed the point. you are focusing on the mechanics of how to turn of the water..i am focusing on the reason to turn off the water. you say they should cut them off because " At some point we run out of OTHER PEOPLES MONEY. You have failed to explain who pays for this"

I am trying to get out of you how would they be saving " OTHER PEOPLES MONEY" by cutting of the water and then turning around and proving these water stations.

[franksterr]

Rediculous...I did not know that. That's a good point. If a state makes the most obvious source of water illegal to collect, they must supply a free source. I would agree with that.

But, you might want to do further research. It seems that it isn't 'illegal', it's regulated, for reasons stated below.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20131204014742AAirvOr

PS My well on my property is regulated. Meaning, I had to have a permit before drilling, and water samples were taken for testing by the state/county to make sure it was potable.(safe for consumption) ....and did you know that the state of Md has a rain tax? First of its kind in the US, but for different reasons of what we are speaking of in this discussion.

Lets not split hairs here regulate is a synonym for law in this case.

reg·u·late

verb\ˈre-gyə-ˌlāt also ˈrā-\: to set or adjust the amount, degree, or rate of (something)
: to bring (something) under the control of authority
: to make rules or laws that control (something)



If you break these water regulation you are subject to arrest if the state deems it necessary......that to me make it a crime.

[j-kid]

From wen mi owned property dung deh, mi get familiar wid dem. Dem people ah di Water Dept hav always bin ah set ah people wid very bad attitude whe noh hav noh problem wid tiefing di money from di working man, an wi shut off yuh water even wen yuh neve use none. De wi keep high estimating yuh water bill, an refuse fi com out ever period fi goh read di meter. Even wen dem sen smaddi fi check di accuracy ah di meter, of teke it gi goh expert check it, dem tell yuh sey, dem noh believe di result ah dem own people. Dem is ah bunch ah crooks. An doan even try get smaddi pan di phone, noh matter wen yuh call, yuh haffi drive deng deh ah is like ah cattle-call wid di amount ah people waiting fi get help (well, abused is more like it). Das one ah di reason mi noh feel sorry fi di last Water Dep. Director whe dem sen goh ah prison, however, di Judge tun round gi him probation.

shood poor peeps woo cyaan pay dem water bill ave a rite to have water in dem home?wat oonnoo tink?iss water a human rite?

[lonewolf]

I am trying to get out of you how would they be saving " OTHER PEOPLES MONEY" by cutting of the water and then turning around and proving these water stations.

Ok...I get your point. Sorry, I thought it was obvious. A simple device to reduce water flow the size of a spicket similiar to what is in your house would suffice and installed on the hydrant. Nothing elaborate. Cheap in cost...people could only get enough water out at a small rate. Fill a milk jug one at a time. It would reduce total amount of gallons of water to be treated (sanitized). Mains could be shut down only allowing water to flow to certain areas.

What's your answer? If they are cutting off individual homes and are getting grief because of this action, what's the alternative? Other than turn water back on to individual homes, how could they save money? They aren't turning off the water because they want to...they are turning off the water because of the cost and failing infrastructure. Every service in Detroit is being cut back and is in some type of dire strait.

Would you agree or disagree? You ask me all kinds of questions, but you fail to give me your answer of how you would solve the problem? Rich, give me your answer. Detroit is in bankruptcy...where does the money come from?

The feds and citizens have to dig deep...of course federal money is TAXPAYER MONEY...someone has to pay.

In Detroit, where 35 billion gallons of water leak from the city’s decaying water system each year, [3] an outbreak of a waterborne pathogen could spread like wildfire between all of the broken and leaking pipes. This is a huge public health concern that cannot be ignored.

AMERICA’S WATER INFRASTRUCTURE: A FAILURE TO INVEST

BEN KOTTLER ([email protected])

INTRODUCTION: AMERICA’S UNDERGROUND PROBLEM
As they go through their daily lives, most American’s do not think where their water comes from. Running water has been ingrained into us for generations. But what if the water stopped working? Not because of an environmental issue, like a drought, or man-made issue, like overuse. What if it was caused because the pipes were broken because they were not replaced when they were scheduled too? In the near future, this will be the reality faced on America’s water infrastructure. According to CNN, in 2011, water mains broke at a rate of 700 per day. [1] This is not a problem that can be put off, because it has already been put off long enough. I feel that fixing our water supply is one of the most important and necessary investments we can make. As an emerging civil engineer, I feel that our water supply is in dire need of renovation and for many reasons. I feel that this may be a problem that I will have to tackle, so I decided to look at the problems and solutions facing this topic. With costs only going to skyrocket in the future and a sluggish economy, now is the time to reinvest in our infrastructure to minimize costs. Along with costs, public health is also a huge concern, because crumbling pipes allow for innumerable sources of contagion to enter our water supply. As well as public health, the physical damage from failing water infrastructure costs American’s much in time and money. But there are alternatives, like newer PVC pipes, that are much cheaper and corrosion resistant to the old iron pipe that is currently in use.


COSTS OF FAILING WATER INFRASTRUCTURE
In the words of Joan B. Rose, who is a director at the Center of Water Sciences at Michigan State University, “We have not put enough science and technology into wastewater as we’ve needed to,” she says, but there’s no time like the present to invest, even in a struggling post-recession economy.” [2] Our water supply problems will not just go away. It is in our best interests to fix them now, rather than put them off. I think that if we just let our pipes corrode and our water treatment plants become overburdened, we will be actively hurting our country in both the short and long term. This is because we cannot wait for the price of fixing our water supply to go down. In fact, as written by Bonner R. Cohen, operations and maintenance costs are increasing annually by 6 percent above the rate of inflation. [3] This means that if we just continue on our current inflation rate of 1.5%, just maintaining our current infrastructure will cost 7.5% more each year. That is unsustainable and needs to be addressed now. If something is not done now, it will soon not be economically viable. Current estimates say that America’s 54,000 drinking water systems and 16,000 wastewater systems face infrastructure funding needs of nearly $2 trillion over the next 20 years according to the ASCE. [4] This cannot be an isolated problem. In Pennsylvania alone, $29.3 billion [5] is needed to fix our water systems. I feel that a systematic renovation is crucial to Americas continued high standard of living. There needs to be a huge overhaul of the way we fund our water infrastructure. Currently, Local governments and taxpayers must fund 90 percent of water infrastructure costs while there are competing needs of education, transportation, and other services. [4] This is too much of a burden on local governments. More state and federal support is needed if any real progress will be made. Money is not the only issue facing our infrastructure however.


DANGERS OF OUR WATER SUPPLY
Although these cost may seem unnecessary right now, as many of us have not had to deal with broken pipes or other problems and there is not much signs of widespread decay, it does not mean that America is in the clear. Just because it cannot be seen does not mean there is no danger. In Milwaukie, a team reported finding very high human fecal pathogen levels in all 45 stormwater outfalls sampled in Milwaukee with separate sewer systems. The implication is that sewage is leaking out of sanitary pipes. [2] If the sewers are leaking into the stormwater pipes, how hard is it to believe that they are also leaking into our drinking supply. Sewers are leaking at alarming rates and no one can notice it. How many cities, towns, and assorted municipalities also have this same issue? It has already happened and the effects can be horrendous. An outbreak of some 1,450 cases of gastroenteritis occurred in Ohio’s South Bass Island’s water supply in Lake Erie during the summer of 2004. [2] If the effects of leaking sewers were to be felt in a major American city, the number of affected would be astronomical. It is not out of the realm of possibility that this could happen. In Detroit, where 35 billion gallons of water leak from the city’s decaying water system each year, [3] an outbreak of a waterborne pathogen could spread like wildfire between all of the broken and leaking pipes. This is a huge public health concern that cannot be ignored.


FIXING THE PROBLEM
While Detroit may seem like an extraordinary case, with such a high rate of broken and outdated water systems, it will not be for long. The EPA predicts that the percentage of U.S. wastewater pipe that will be in “poor,” “very poor,” or “life elapsed” (older than its predicted life span) condition will rise from 23% in 2000 to 45% in 2020. [2] Almost half of our waste will be flowing through pipes that need to be replaced. I think that is a very scary thought. But with the current cost of replacing it and the fact that those cost will only be rising in the future, what are our real options? If we continue to use the same iron ductile pipe that we have for the past 50 years, like many cities and municipalities are forced to, no matter how much we fix and replace, we will be in the same predicament in 50-60 years, due to the corrosion of iron. But if we switch our water pipes to newer polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pipes, we will be able to make a real difference in the state of our infrastructure in the long-term. PVC has many advantages to iron ductile pipe. The first is cost. PVC pipe is 70 percent cheaper to use than ductile iron pipe. [3] This brings down the costs of fixing our infrastructure immensely, so why is it not use more extensively. Currently, only 45 of the 100 largest U.S. cities use PVC pipe. [3] With a higher quality and cheaper materials already here, I think that it is inexcusable that we are not taking advantage of them. We already have part of the solution right in front of us, and we are not using it.


CONCLUSION
In my opinion, the state of our water systems is one of the most pressing concerns for America’s infrastructure. As a soon to be civil engineering student, one of my main areas of study will be in learning the ways of coming up with solutions to problems like this. But this problem is not just affecting me. Across our country, more and more of the cracks in our water supply will become visible. If engineers, politicians, and the American public at large do not take swift action, we may face a problem that we cannot feasibly fix

http://www.pitt.edu/~bak66/trends.html

[lonewolf]

Lets not split hairs here regulate is a synonym for law in this case.

Yes, but, let's also stay on track of what you claimed. It's not against the law to provide your own water source(collecting rainwater). It is against the law to provide unpotable rain water to yourself and because of possible contamination of unpotable rain water to other water sources. Big difference, not splitting hairs.

It's perfectly legal to supply yourself with water. AS LONG AS IT IS SAFE FOR CONSUMPTION.

I have my own water source...I'm glad that the government (regulated it) tested it (at my cost) and told me it was safe to consume. It protected me and my family from sickness. It cost money to drill my well and supply infrastructure to support same. After 23 years my well pump failed and had to be replaced with new pump and holding tank...AT MY EXPENSE.

SUPPLYING WATER TO POPULATION OF BIG CITIES IS NO DIFFERENT, IT'S JUST ON A GRANDER SCALE. IT COST MONEY. NOTHING IS FREE.

[jah_yout]

From wen mi owned property dung deh, mi get familiar wid dem. Dem people ah di Water Dept hav always bin ah set ah people wid very bad attitude whe noh hav noh problem wid tiefing di money from di working man, an wi shut off yuh water even wen yuh neve use none. De wi keep high estimating yuh water bill, an refuse fi com out ever period fi goh read di meter. Even wen dem sen smaddi fi check di accuracy ah di meter, of teke it gi goh expert check it, dem tell yuh sey, dem noh believe di result ah dem own people. Dem is ah bunch ah crooks. An doan even try get smaddi pan di phone, noh matter wen yuh call, yuh haffi drive deng deh ah is like ah cattle-call wid di amount ah people waiting fi get help (well, abused is more like it). Das one ah di reason mi noh feel sorry fi di last Water Dep. Director whe dem sen goh ah prison, however, di Judge tun round gi him probation.

this is what happens when corruption & mismanagement goes awry...
the situation is sad...instead of securing all the abandoned structures that are running out water--- they choose to turn off the water of the (mostly poor) people who need it

[lonewolf]

[QUOTE][this is what happens when corruption & mismanagement goes awry...
the situation is sad...instead of securing all the abandoned structures that are running out water--- they choose to turn off the water of the (mostly poor) people who need it /QUOTE]

It is sad. America's cities are falling apart. As the decay worsens Barry and the rest of the DC gang waist trillions of dollars on wars instead of rebuilding our cities.

[blugiant]

Rich, cost effective? We are speaking of a water supply to give people drinking water for survival, nothing else. I'm not a city planner, auditor or accountant. I'm a firefighter, as you well know. Having a water supply is critical for me to be able to do my job. I not an expert by any means, but I do know how Baltimore's water system works. The fire apparatus carries tools to shut off water to peoples homes in case of emergency. The water supply shut off for individual homes is usually located directly in front of the home, in between the sidewalk and street. Looks like a small manhole cover. Shutoff is about three/four feet down below surface. Special long t-handled tool used to turn off water. I've done this many times.

City of Detroit could send fire department out to turn off water. They are already on the payroll, would not cost them a red cent....Baltimore has Fire Department giving out free smoke detectors AND INSTALLING THEM in people's homes...so, shutting off water wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Trust me on this one.

I'm being devil's advocate, giving you possible scenerio and solution...not supporting either side on this. Its reality.

wander iff da peeps woo watah de fiyah dept tunn awf can sue da fire department fe violatinn dem human rights?

[blugiant]

It is sad. America's cities are falling apart. As the decay worsens Barry and the rest of the DC gang waist trillions of dollars on wars instead of rebuilding our cities.

so yuh tink reducinn taxes ann givinn millionaires, billionaires ann bigg bizz huge tax break cantreebuted to citees avinn less revenue ann reduction aff servives

[franksterr]

Yes, but, let's also stay on track of what you claimed. It's not against the law to provide your own water source(collecting rainwater). It is against the law to provide unpotable rain water to yourself and because of possible contamination of unpotable rain water to other water sources. Big difference, not splitting hairs.

Many states say it is not legal,,,,, maybe you missed the link to the newscast here it is please view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jjxg8f3Gq0

It's perfectly legal to supply yourself with water. AS LONG AS IT IS SAFE FOR CONSUMPTION.

No....it is not perfectly legal to collect rainwater in every state.

Record droughts and water-supply worries have served as catalysts for state legislatures to consider legislation legalizing the catchment and use of rainwater for use in households and for lawns.
There has been increased interest over the past five years in legislation allowing, defining, and clarifying when rainwater harvesting can occur. Rainwater harvesting is the act of utilizing a collection system to use rainwater for outdoor uses, plumbing, and, in some cases, consumption. States have also passed legislation encouraging the use of Graywater. Graywater refers to the reuse of water drained from baths, showers, washing machines, and sinks (household wastewater excluding toilet wastes) for irrigation and other water conservation applications.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/environment-and-natural-resources/rainwater-harvesting.aspx

I have my own water source...I'm glad that the government (regulated it) tested it (at my cost) and told me it was safe to consume. It protected me and my family from sickness. It cost money to drill my well and supply infrastructure to support same. After 23 years my well pump failed and had to be replaced with new pump and holding tank...AT MY EXPENSE.

I too consume well water that is regulated another word for legalized

SUPPLYING WATER TO POPULATION OF BIG CITIES IS NO DIFFERENT, IT'S JUST ON A GRANDER SCALE. IT COST MONEY. NOTHING IS FREE.

Yes.....and it should be a human right to always have access to clean water. Access to water should not be the preserve of only those with money to afford it.

Outdoor air remains free......when I last checked

[lonewolf]

wander iff da peeps woo watah de fiyah dept tunn awf can sue da fire department fe violatinn dem human rights?

If they can afford to pay a lawyer to sue, why can't they pay their water bill? I guess ya expect the lawyer to be free also.

[lonewolf]

No....it is not perfectly legal to collect rainwater in every state.

Perfectly legal? Or legal with limitations?

It's all in one's interpretation, and I do understand your point.

The site below has a link to every state and their law regarding water and harvesting of same.

← →Rainwater harvesting regulations state by state
Posted on February 26, 2013 by Orpheus
As of March 22, 2014; after hours of ongoing research for the past year, I have checked all 50 state government websites and found that there is currently, no state government law in the U.S. that considers rainwater harvesting by individuals (homeowners) in a direct manor and bluntly, “against the law” for anyone and everyone and furthermore, “government” is not becoming “more restrictive with rain water harvesting”- yet; but it may happen in the future. One exception is Colorado, where there are still limitations for some people. Keep a watchful eye on government – always! (the information in this post is based on my interpretation. I’ve included links to the info used) Rain waterharvesting as the process of capturing water in rain barrels, or roof water harvesting by individuals is not currently (as of April 2014) against state law in the following states: (Corrections accepted with a link to the source.)

http://www.enlight-inc.com/blog/?p=1036

I too consume well water that is regulated another word for legalized

Ok, now who is splitting hairs?

Yes.....and it should be a human right to always have access to clean water. Access to water should not be the preserve of only those with money to afford it.

Again, its not a perfect world. If it cost money to provide a service, even if that service is simple water that is other wise not available...who pays to provide that service, and if that service is forced upon others to provide service for free, than providers of such services are inherently SLAVES to those that take and expect service for free...IT IS NOT A RITE.

[franksterr]

Perfectly legal? Or legal with limitations?

It's all in one's interpretation, and I do understand your point.

The site below has a link to every state and their law regarding water and harvesting of same.






http://www.enlight-inc.com/blog/?p=1036

The point I am making is that once its regulated and you have to get a permit it is no longer legal to harvest rain water in the manner you recommended "Place a bucket outside when it rains,".....it only becomes legal with a permit.

Right now I can plant spinach on my property in any state without a permit.....that is what I would call "perfectly legal" - Permissible.


Rooftop Precipitation Collection
Although it is permissible to direct your residential property roof downspouts toward landscaped areas, unless you own a specific type of exempt well permit, you cannot collect rainwater in any other manner, such as storage in a cistern or tank, for later use. Please review our publications below, as well as links to CSU Extension's information on this topic and Colorado law on the subject as written in the Colorado Revised Statutes, before completing and submitting an Application for a Rooftop Precipitation Collection System Permit. If your well has not been registered, you will also need to Register an Existing Well before applying.
http://water.state.co.us/SURFACEWATE...Graywater.aspx


Now here is the minimum requirements...the devil is in the details - can most homeowners qualify for the permits???? -


TO QUALIFY, ALL OF THE FOLLOWING MINIMUM CRITERIA MUST BE MET:
1. The property on which the collection will take place is residential property; and,
2. The property must either have a water well or be legally entitled to have a water well as the water supply; and,
3. The well use does not exceed those uses described in C.R.S. 37-92-602(g) or 37-90-105(f), being ordinary household purposes,
lawn/garden irrigation of not more than one acre, watering of poultry, domestic animals, and livestock on farms and ranches, and fire
protection; and,
4. There is no water supply to serve the property available from a municipality or water district; and,
5. The precipitation is collected only from the roof of a building used primarily as a residence; and,
6. The collected precipitation is only used for those uses that are allowed by the existing well permit, or on a well permit that the
property would be legally entitled to.


If you do not meet ALL of the above criteria, or if your well permit number ends with a suffix other than “-A” such as “-F” or “-R”,
the provisions of Senate Bill 09-080 do not apply to you, and it is illegal for you to collect or divert and use precipitation falling on your
property, unless a water court decree (unusual) specifically allows such use.

http://water.state.co.us/DWRIPub/Documents/gws-78.pdf

Those minimum criteria rules out or in all practicality makes it illegal for city dwellers to harvest water.

Ok, now who is splitting hairs?

No....not splitting hairs here just letting you know, that I too have to jump through hoops to get and maintain potable water for my family

Again, its not a perfect world. If it cost money to provide a service, even if that service is simple water that is other wise not available...who pays to provide that service, and if that service is forced upon others to provide service for free, than providers of such services are inherently SLAVES to those that take and expect service for free...IT IS NOT A RITE.

It cost money for Public parks, Emergency services and Public Education etc services which I have never used but my tax dollars help toward paying for, for which I do not consider myself a slave to no one for doing so.
They are called a Public Good.....Water should not only be a Public Good but a Human Right

[blugiant]

If they can afford to pay a lawyer to sue, why can't they pay their water bill? I guess ya expect the lawyer to be free also.

lawyers will tekk case iff dem tink deer iss a chance fe mekk class action ting out aff itt iff peeps cyaan pay dem watah bill.

iff mii was a lawyer mii wood tekk diss case cah da publicitee wood increase mii public profile


yuh neva kno manee racist oyinbo sued pon civil rite tings on behalf ave blakks ann got rich

[RichD]

lornwolf come from the POV that thee is a group of ppl who just looking for ways to beat the system. that if yuh give an inch to anybody dem a go jump on and try tek advantage.

i think a reasonable response tot his issue is the try to come to some accommodation with t he customers who are in arrears on their accounts. review each situation ...set up payment plans. maybe wave any penalties that have been added to their bills. maybe they arrears can be suspended and they pay going forward ...arrears still held in accounts payable but not growing interest and penalties.