Sellout

[franksterr]

explain to me oww manley effectivelee destroyed race ann class issues? colorism iss racism ann itt more dan a simple matter aff aesthetic?

Manley by respecting Rastafari and its central ideas couple with his political and economic policy dealt an almost death blow to Racism and Classism in Jamaica.

No....I do not see Racism as the same as Colorism but a child of racism in the sense that it is mainly express in Jamaica by individuals holding on to the ideas that just being white or brown or clearer is a step up the social and or economic ladder and means to an end in and of itself.

The worst thing about Colorism is that some belief it is true and lend support to its misguided notions, thereby making a purely individual to individual issue among certain peoples

There are no longer any laws or political infrastructure or social conventions to support Racism or its child Colorism in Jamaica having been long denounced by Rasta and finally remove from the public domain by Manley's policies


Please explain why you belief Colorism in Jamiaca is Racism?
And show how and why it is more than aesthetics?

[lonewolf]

Blugiant:"since yuh choose oyinbo definition fe cancieve blakk realitee den yuh definition aff sellout is based pon oyinbo realitee raddar dan blakk realitee. fii mii aff sellout iss based pon blakk realitee"

Hmmm, You left Jamaica to live in a oyinbo controlled environment. You chose oyinbo world instead of Jamaican world. So, that said, Jamaicans that have toughed it out and stayed in Jamaica, could consider you a sellout. Their reality is not your reality. Perception vs reality?

[blugiant]

Manley by respecting Rastafari and its central ideas couple with his political and economic policy dealt an almost death blow to Racism and Classism in Jamaica.

No....I do not see Racism as the same as Colorism but a child of racism in the sense that it is mainly express in Jamaica by individuals holding on to the ideas that just being white or brown or clearer is a step up the social and or economic ladder and means to an end in and of itself.

The worst thing about Colorism is that some belief it is true and lend support to its misguided notions, thereby making a purely individual to individual issue among certain peoples

There are no longer any laws or political infrastructure or social conventions to support Racism or its child Colorism in Jamaica having been long denounced by Rasta and finally remove from the public domain by Manley's policies


Please explain why you belief Colorism in Jamiaca is Racism?
And show how and why it is more than aesthetics?

yet da way jamaica media diss portia cah shi blakk ann cum fram da lower class show classism ann racism still alive inn ja.

War - Bob Marley

jamaicans still a chat bout red, brownskin, oyinbo and blakk. latt aff bleechinn still a gawn inn jamaica. let natt chatt bout ms jamaica cantests. until da philosopee witch old wan race superior ann annada inferior is finallee ann permanentlee discredited..... until da color aff man skin is no more significant ave imm eyes

y iss itt dat de majaritee darker skins jamaicans still occuoy da lowest economic rung wild da lita skin jamaicans ar overlee represented pon da top econnnyamicc rung

so yuh argument dat iff deer iss no longar annee laws pon da books dat give peference to lita skinn jamaicans den colorism doan exist within da law den colorism iss ova by ignorinn dat de rule aff law iss wan ting butt da spirit aff da law iss annadda

[blugiant]

Hmmm, You left Jamaica to live in a oyinbo controlled environment. You chose oyinbo world instead of Jamaican world. So, that said, Jamaicans that have toughed it out and stayed in Jamaica, could consider you a sellout. Their reality is not your reality. Perception vs reality?

natt percetshan versus realitee butt perceptshan iss realitee

y yuh doan tink jamaica iss an oyinbo cantroll enviorment?



I know no national boundary where the Negro is concerned. The whole world is my province until Africa is free.

Marcus Garvey

[Tropicana]

jamaicans still a chat bout red, brownskin, oyinbo and blakk. latt aff bleechinn still a gawn inn jamaica. let natt chatt bout ms jamaica cantests. until da philosopee witch old wan race superior ann annada inferior is finallee ann permanentlee discredited..... until da color aff man skin is no more significant ave imm eyes

..... and let's not forget browining

Also I have brought this up before, if a man gets 2 women pregnant, he will almost always marry the light skinned one.

Such worship of light skinned women is truly bizarre when many of them sold out Black men out during slavery and in the post slavery era....something I didn't even KNOW until blugiant educated us about that recently...

http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/showthread.php?143650-racial-histaree-aff-blakk-slut

I never liked these snooty light skinned chicks who think they are better than everyone. Now I have even more reason to dislike them.

Sellouts are dangerous. During slavery, they could cost you your life. Today, they can cost you your livelihood. I don't agree with necklacing....it is uncalled for....but that is why the South Africans took such a drastic stand against sellouts.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that all or most light skinned chicks are snooty but we do know this dynamic exists in our community.

[purejam]

yuh wrote a latt mii affii goo deal widd diss piece by peace. oww wan choose fe define kultural sinting creates framewukk fe define blakk peeps. since yuh choose oyinbo definition fe cancieve blakk realitee den yuh definition aff sellout is based pon oyinbo realitee raddar dan blakk realitee. fii mii aff sellout iss based pon blakk realitee

There is not a single black reality. Or if there if there is, it has been created by the white supremacist ideology of the European elites. Let me break this down.

There are around 1.5 billion African and African descent people. Our histories, cultures, languages, belief systems, social organisations, political ideologies and economic statuses are diverse. To say there is one reality that links the 1.5 billion is ridiculous.

I believe your concept of 'black reality' is one borne out of the collective experience of slavery and colonialism. Central to this black reality is the spectre of the white man. As I say in another thread, white supremacy defined the many and varied peoples of Alkebulan as 'black'. Therefore, black reality is born out and is supposed to function as a counter to white reality. I understand this view, I no longer share it and await your response.

Marcus Garvey:

"The white man has succeeded in subduing the world by forcing everybody to think his way. The white man?s propaganda has made him the master of the world. And those who have come in contact with it and accepted it have become his slaves."

again yuh definition aff sellout iss wan oyinbo definition. blakk peeps must define ann redefine owa own terms ann give dem meanin, da race first paradigm. blakk meaninn aff sellout iss bout a ting dat cannot be properlee fram oyinbo perspective

Your definition of sellout is yours. It's not mine and it's not the definition of hundreds of millions of Africans and African descent people. "We' if there is a 1.5 billion 'we' is myriad, we contain many definitions, ideologies, beliefs, etc. No one person can speak for the 1.5 billion. The lumping us all together came from the mindset of the enslaving, colonising, mass murdering, mass raping, mass thieving European slaving and colonising project. Pan-Africanism, Black Consciousness, Black Power and the like, were all created in defensive reaction to white supremacy. I understand their creation and activities. Martin Delaney, Carter G. Woodson, Marcus Garvey, Omowale et al. were the products of their generation, the collective experiences of previous generations, and the knowledge and thinking of their eras. We can learn from them whilst developing our own thoughts and perspectives. That is what I choose to do.


Marcus Garvey
Not all black men are willing to commit race suicide and to abhor their race for the companionship of another. There are hundreds of millions of us black men who are proud of our skins, and to us the African Empire will not be a Utopia, neither will it be dangerous, nor fail to serve our best interests, because we realize that, like the leopard, we cannot change our skins, and so long as black is black, and white is white, the black man shall occupy a position of inferiority depending upon the justice of the great white race to lead and direct him. No race in the world is so just as to give to others a square deal in things economical, political, social and otherwise.

yuh know da furst pan afrikkan canference was organized by wan sellout ann da addar blakks forced imm fe stepp dunn cah aff da kulutural framework imm was cumminn fram

Skin colour does not bind. Family, community, culture, religion, political ideology… these are the things people unite around. Yes, there are exceptions, but it isn't skin colour.

[purejam]

No...that's not entirely truth depending on what your definition of blacktivist is.
In my opinion a blactivist is one who fights for the Rights of black people.........not one who hates or dislikes white people.
Anyone who hates or dislikes white people because of their skin color are bigots and ignoramuses.

I agree. I should have said anyone who preaches race first and maintaining race exclusivity in relationships, and then does otherwise, is a hypocritical sellout.

As for the hating and disliking of white people, I think that's a combination of pain, anger, ignorance and feelings of impotence. Pain and anger at the injustices perpetrated on Africans/African descent people by Europeans. Ignorance about the politics and imperatives of international relations, power and economics out which white supremacy was created. Maybe ignorance of the critical roles played by Africans in the institutionalisation of slavery, as well as the many inequities in African societies prior to European incursion in the 15th century. Garvey, Lumumba, X and other advocates of race first, pan-Africanism and Black Power, all failed in their ultimate aim. Now matter how those who hate dislike/hate whites idolise and idealise these significant historical personalities, the dreams of black unity and freedom, and African empire have never been further away. People can rant and cuss and protest, but ultimately feel impotent to change things in any meaningful way. This may be a cause of sustained antipathy because there is nothing positive to replace it with.

No.... we do not hold one common ideology nor do we all think the same way about the races.
Yes there is a right way in which to view race.......We are all one Race - the Human Race.
Having a preference for one race or the other is not racist but should be seen as racial.

Since races are socially constructions rather than biological or cultural realities, race preference could be seen as buying into an illusion. I definitely have a Caribbean cultural preference, because of shared histories, identity ambiguities, food, music backgrounds, etc.

The amount of melanin one has should not dictate your belief system, but if similar melaninated people are being persecuted for being so, then it behooves you and all peoples to rally in support of the end of that persecution.
All humans should have the same view on Race.....which is that there is but one Race all so called Races are Human beings.

I agree, but today, the overwhelming majority of people with similar levels of melanin to me are being persecuted by other people who look like them/me. We only have to look at Nigeria, Central African Republic, Mali, Mozambique and Sudan. All this in the past 2/3 years. Go back a decade or so, then Rwanda and DRC. As I hinted in a previous post, transatlantic slavery would not have been possible on the scale it achieved without the wholesale cooperation of many, many African societies.

In marriage one often takes vows of fidelity, to break that vow is an act that can be so construed - sell out.
To not care for your offspring is to neglect your God given duty (Natural Mammalian) - sell out
As human beings were share a mutual bond to look out for one another young or old black or white.
Joining the armed forces is not an act of selling out but going against one's conscience is
It is my belief that neither Garvey nor Lumumba taught hatred of white people.

I agree.

These peoples had ideological, political ethnic and tribal differences, not so called racial differences.

Agreed.

I know of no Pan African Doctrine or Rule that states that one must not marry anyone outside of ones Race.....such doctrines tend to be religious - Pan African is Political

You're right and your clarification appreciated.

That is true.
Then one must ask why do they feel the need to chemically treat their hair and what are they trying to achieve or imitate.
It is often the case that those who chemically treat their hair think it is more beautiful that way.....the roots of this concepts of beauty is often racist.
More important than resisting their chemicalized hair is to teach then to accept their natural self first and then all things will be added later if necessary or desired through preference....In other words rid them of the misconception of beauty first

Interesting to note that Madame C. J. Walker was the first African American female millionaire. She made her monetary wealth through the straightening of African descent women's hair.

[COLOR=#333333]
True to sell out is to go against your professed belief.
I believe such a doctrine would perpetuate the very thing it seeks to destroy - Racism

Agreed.

[purejam]

Hmmm, You left Jamaica to live in a oyinbo controlled environment. You chose oyinbo world instead of Jamaican world. So, that said, Jamaicans that have toughed it out and stayed in Jamaica, could consider you a sellout. Their reality is not your reality. Perception vs reality?

Ah what yuh ah she? blu nuh live ah Jamaica?

A wha de!!!

[blugiant]

Skin colour does not bind. Family, community, culture, religion, political ideology… these are the things people unite around. Yes, there are exceptions, but it isn't skin colour.

race cut across family, community, religion, cultutral and political lines. skin color does bind dat y dem tryinn fe erase racial line fe strengthen oyinbo supremacee ann lines

soo mii guess yuh neva chatt to yawdee woo liter skin relatives got more privileges cah aff dem skin color

out aff manee wan people iss a joke cah itt doan trulee represent da majaritee blakk interests.

yuh neva chatt bout economic lines were addar race ar more likelee fe support peeps dat look like dem xxcepts blakks woo fail fe see da significance aff skin color

[lonewolf]

natt percetshan versus realitee butt perceptshan iss realitee

So, if a Jamaican in Jamaica perceives the reality of you leaving Jamaica as you being a sellout, his perception is reality that you are a sellout...meaning that it is true and you can't dispute that reality.

[blugiant]

purejam anwsar da qwestian bout y yuh usinn oyinbo definition fe define blakk cancept aff sellout ann yuh doan see da cantradictsham aff yuh argument?

oww can yuh use oyinbo kultural definition aff sellout ann natt afrikkan based kultural definition wild yuh chatt bout multikultual perspectives?

[lonewolf]

Ah what yuh ah she? blu nuh live ah Jamaica?

A wha de!!!

You are reading but you are not comprehending. I'm simply making a point on one's perspective. The whole sell out thing is bogus. To deny one's happiness based on some stupid code of "selloutism" is a retarded thought process. To base it on race or skin color is racist...My point is this, everyone and anyone could be considered a sellout by applying the term to a specific topic that is important to any one person...perception vs reality.

[Tropicana]

race cut across family, community, religion, cultutral and political lines. skin color does bind dat y dem tryinn fe erase racial line fe strengthen oyinbo supremacee ann lines

soo mii guess yuh neva chatt to yawdee woo liter skin relatives got more privileges cah aff dem skin color

out aff manee wan people iss a joke cah itt doan trulee represent da majaritee blakk interests.

yuh neva chatt bout economic lines were addar race ar more likelee fe support peeps dat look like dem xxcepts blakks woo fail fe see da significance aff skin color

[My Looh]

For those that spout about the evils and wrongs that are brought onto one person or a race of people by another....

Just like the statement that all white people are racist (which I agree with) so is the fact that EVERYONE, especially if you live in the first world is a sellout.

Just as a white person does not have a choice but to live and enjoy the advantages that come from being white, no matter how many anti racist views he/she possesses so does a person who enjoys anything that has an exploited, mistreated person attached to it in one form or another.

[franksterr]

yet da way jamaica media diss portia cah shi blakk ann cum fram da lower class show classism ann racism still alive inn ja.

Yet she holds the highest office in the land, which if we had true Racism would not have been possible

jamaicans still a chat bout red, brownskin, oyinbo and blakk. latt aff bleechinn still a gawn inn jamaica. let natt chatt bout ms jamaica cantests. until da philosopee witch old wan race superior ann annada inferior is finallee ann permanentlee discredited..... until da color aff man skin is no more significant ave imm eyes

Exactly what I have been saying....aesthetics

y iss itt dat de majaritee darker skins jamaicans still occuoy da lowest economic rung wild da lita skin jamaicans ar overlee represented pon da top econnnyamicc rung

Because of the history of Racism within Jamaica and the legacy of colonialism

so yuh argument dat iff deer iss no longar annee laws pon da books dat give peference to lita skinn jamaicans den colorism doan exist within da law den colorism iss ova by ignorinn dat de rule aff law iss wan ting butt da spirit aff da law iss annadda

Never said colorism is over, just that it is a legacy of racism.....and that racism and classism in Jamaica is of little effect compared to its past.


“Where political sovereignty has been conceded but economic power remains untouched, equality remains a myth, social justice proves unattainable and even freedom becomes an ambiguous phenomenon.”
Michael Manley

Manley was trying to place economic power in the hands of (black) people but The USA put a stop to that......as a result economic power remains for the most part in the hands of the white and brown man.
So as that is the present case, wherein wealth remains in the hands of the landed gentry who as descendants and relatives of the previous racist land owners they tend to be white or fair skin and of lighter complexion which lends support to the idea that racism and classism still exist in Jamaica. Whilst the truth is that it is really only proof of colorism which is a weak and diluted form of racism and or classism