Sellout

[franksterr]

purejam

'We' did not fail anyone. Each of those leaders had an ideology that they believed was correct. I used to get irate with those who did not share my Pan Afrikanist beliefs and who favoured integration.

Their idea were right as far as I know.....
Tell me the Ideas of Pan Africanism that you think is wrong or outdated?
There is nothing wrong with "integration" nor is "integration" antithetical to Pan Africanism.

Now, I understand concepts such as pluralism, diversity and heterogeneity as well as the their opposites monism, unity and homogeneity. The latter describe Pan Afrikanist thought and its emergence in the period of Western modernity. The former are postmodern and can be used to challenge and undermine the metanarratives of modernity. These metanarratives which include the ideology of race and race classification, as well as the modern nation state provided the theoretical and institutional bases for white supremacy, slavery, colonisation, neo-colonisation and contemporary globalisation.

Which is Good as such assumptions should be challenged and Pan Africanism is doing just that - Challenging the myths of white supremacy

Let's deal with unity. Calls for black and African unity were and remain constant. Yet, the reality is, these calls are bound to fail. They can never materialise. Why First, both black and Africaare European constructs.

Second, they were applied by Europeans to the many, pluralised, diverse and heterogeneous nations and peoples in the continent of Alkebu lan. Thirds, they fail to recognise or respect the plurality, diversity and heterogeneity of those to whom they are applied. Fourth, at the time that they were applied, those on whom they were applied did not regard themselves as black or African. Why would they? What free people would allow others to name and define them? Fifth, most of the may diverse peoples living on the continent of Alkebu lan never travelled more than 30-50 miles in the entirety of their lives. This was the same for most peoples in the world at that time who lived on the land and did not have access to horses, donkeys, mules, camels, elephants and the like on which they could travel, so moved from place to place on foot. The majority did not venture far from where they lived. Sixth, following on from the previous point, there wasn't a widespread appreciation of the Alkebu lan continent amongst those who lived there. This means that, seventh, there was not any sense of collective unity. If there had been, Alkebu lan would have resisted the Arab and European incursions.

What are you saying?
What do you think Selassie was doing when he founded OAU?
Presently revamp as the AU....sure its not perfect but one must start some where.

Let me sum it up this way. The idea of black or African unity is a direct consequence of white supremacy. It is based on Western modernity's notions of monism (all reality can be explained through one way of looking at things), unity and homogeneity (sameness). These characteristics of Western modernity do not conform to the plurality, diversity and heterogeneity of nations, peoples, cultures, belief systems, familial relations, communal networks, economic systems and polities that existed on the Alkebu lan continent prior to European incursion. However, created out of/by white supremacy or more accurately, created out of the union of a mother's treachery and a step father's inhumaneness, Pan Afrikanism has taken the traits of the latter whilst looking uncritically and longingly at the former.

Every Nation or state today started out as a village and grew by either conquest or alliance to other towns and cities, so I do not accept the above as an unassailable barrier to African political and or economic Union
This first step is Functional Unity not political or economic unity

]I'm indebted to you for sharing your thoughtful and insightful words because they give me pause for thought and enable me to mine my own thoughts and understanding to further my analyses. Thank you for contributing to my learning. Everything I write in response to your posts is written with respect, none so more than in this post wherein I take issue with your perspective.

Hotep


PS. For white supremacy substitute 'capitalism'.

White supremacy is a racist socio-political system based on hate, oppression and global domination........ of black Africans in particular but not limited to.
Capitalism is an economic system based on greed without regard to race.

It is a great pleasure reasoning with you....looking forward to your response.
LOVE Iyah

[purejam]

realitee iss dat de peeps aff da wurld ar desended fram blakk afrikkan dna. so yuh argument bout 1.5 billion afrikkan ann afrikkan descent peeps iss flawed cah da wurld population iss bout 7 billion afrikkan ann peeps aff afrikkan descent. even dough oyinbo, asian, etc desended fram afrikkan dna dat nuh mekk dem afrikkan. da way wii determine woo fe cawl afrikkan iss bout race ann kulcha. wat mii repeatedlee seyinn iss dat even doah oyinbo desended fram afrikkans ann ave afrikkan dna nuh mekk dem afrikkan. itt like dem oyinbo inn afrikka now woo cawlinn demselves afrikkans fe maintain dem oyinbo privileges. da way fe identifii da real afrikkans iss bout race ann kulcha dat y cheik wukk was so important

yuh need fe read ann ovatand chiek anta diop ann yurugu by marimba ani

I was reading, writing about and lecturing on Diop, Ani, Chinweizu, Yosef Ben-Jochannan, John H. Jackson, Chancellor Williams, Anthony Browder, John Henrik Clarke, Ivan Van Sertima and many more in the 1980s and 90s. Be wary of assuming or you make yourself appear even more of an *** than you actually are.

You don't have the monopoly on black/African thought and consciousness. The difference between the two of us is, whilst I disagree with your analysis and conclusions, I understand and respect where they are coming from. You on the other hand, choose to pontificate using patois, which is colloquial English (the language of those who enslaved our ancestors), and try to condescend to those who do not share your limited, white supremacist defined and dictated, views. They, as in white supremacy called you nigger, negro, African and black. None of these came from the many different peoples of the continent of Alkebu lan, yet you choose to define yourself and others in those terms and at the same time, you chat down to those who, using our own minds, hold alternative views.

I would really like to see/hear you operate in your day-to-day environment to see if you correspond to your jam.com persona. Then again....


oww do yuh classifii woo ar da real afrikkans iff yuh doan use race ann blakk kulcha? wat mii chattinn bout iss oww oyinbo tried fe claim afrikka by lieinn dat de great pharoahs were natt blakk to push oyinbo supremacee ideologee. dat iss proof dat de blakk realitee predate slaveree ann oyinbo supremacee. yuh tryinn fe mekk politrixx argument usinn oyinbo ideological reason fe chatt bout blakk kulcha widdout ovatandinn dat itt natt onlee politikkal but ideologee. y yuh tink mii use afrikkans wurds like mzungu ann oyinbo? wat mii challenginn yuh pon iss oww yuh assumptions ann pressumptions cah yuh usinn oyinbo ideologee fe examine blakk kulcha.

1.5 billion (1,500,000,000) African/African descent people on this planet and you believe that one culture and one ideology speaks for all? Nuff said.

Everything you've learned about K'mt has been in the language of those who enslaved and colonised our ancestors. Since we think, dream, analyse and create in our active language, that means that all your thoughts and ideas are formed and come out in the language of our historical oppressors. So, whilst you condemn me and others for using oyinbo ideology, you think and type within the confines of oyinbo language, which constrains your thoughts. Maybe you should step to Nigeria, learn Yoruba and spread your message to the 100 million plus inhabitants of that country.

wat mii askinn yuh fe examine iss oww yuh argument furdar oyinbo supremacee. yuh usinn oyinbo dichotomy tinkinn dat teaches yuh fe tekk on oyinbo concepshams ann argue dat afrikkan conceptsham ar flawed. once yuh accept dat dichotomee tinkinn den yu will argue dat wan canceptshan iss superior ann wan iss inferioritee dat iss da basis aff oyinbo supremacee

You don't even begin to have the faintest idea of my ideological beliefs. You've never asked as you're seemingly content to spew out your diatribe and claim that the view you espouse is the black view and the African conception. Well, since both black and African were concepts passed on to us by white supremacy, you may well be right.

[purejam]

purejam




Their idea were right as far as I know.....
Tell me the Ideas of Pan Africanism that you think is wrong or outdated?
There is nothing wrong with "integration" nor is "integration" antithetical to Pan Africanism.



Which is Good as such assumptions should be challenged and Pan Africanism is doing just that - Challenging the myths of white supremacy

White supremacy/capitalism emerged in the 17th and 18th centuries. It was the driver of Western modernity the assumptions it produced were the opposite of those I mentioned. White supremacy/capitalism and Western modernity reached monism - one god, one faith, one economic system (capitalism), one cultural paradigm (European), one racial classification system, and so the list continues. Pluralism is the antithesis of Western modernity, as are diversity and heterogeneity. So why would Pan-Afrikanism challenge them?

Let's deal with diversity, which is the opposite of unity. Prior to European incursion the continent of Alkebu lan was populated by diverse peoples. The overwhelming majority of them lived and died never knowing or thinking about living on a continent. The ideas of Africa and Africans took root in the minds of the architects of white supremacy/capitalism. It was white supremacy/capitalism that ignored the plurality, diversity and heterogeneity of the myriad peoples and cultures and faiths and languages and economic systems and polities that were active in the continent. Any solution should be premised on pluralism rather than monism, so some nations will be democratic, some monarchies, some communal, some republican and many other varieties that I haven't thought or know about. An acknowledgement of diversity rather than calls for unity should predominate in any solutions. Diversity includes working together on projects where there are common interests, whilst maintaining independence and distinctiveness.

What are you saying?
What do you think Selassie was doing when he founded OAU?
Presently revamp as the AU....sure its not perfect but one must start some where.

I understand and respect the aspirations of Selassie, Garvey, Nkrumah, Lumumba, Kenyatta and other adherents of Pan Africanism. The point I was making was that the concept of Africa was Eurocentric, so Pan Africanism was born out of and as a reaction to white supremacy/capitalism.

Moreover, there is no such thing as European or Asian unity, so why call for or expect African unity? Over a million killed in Kashmir. Over 100,000 in the Yugoslav wars. Maybe a million or more in the US civil war. Continental unity is a crack piped dream.



Every Nation or state today started out as a village and grew by either conquest or alliance to other towns and cities, so I do not accept the above as an unassailable barrier to African political and or economic Union
This first step is Functional Unity not political or economic unity


Every contemporary African nation state started out of the lips and ambitions of European imperial nations at the Berlin Conference 1884-5. The continent is a fiction, a horror story and a tragedy. The nations came out of the imperialist ambitions of Western nations. The concept of Nigeria is a fictional European construct and the Yorubas, Fulanis, Igbos, Tivs, Annangs and other nations that were falsely and forcibly 'unified' and 'homogenised' still have different languages and cultures. This is one of the major problems facing that continent. It is suffering from cultural identity psychosis because its political borders and the very existence of its nation states bear absolutely no relation to its political realities.

Colonialism, neocolonialism, postcolonialism and now super imperialist globalisation. All of these political, economic and social constructs have been defined and operated by white supremacy/capitalism. What's more, they have continuously defined Africa and its nations, and the terms under which the African nations created by white supremacy/capitalism, continue to serve white supremacy/capitalism. Until we are clear and clinically objective about the scale and depth of situation, all suggested solutions will fail, confound and frustrate.





White supremacy is a racist socio-political system based on hate, oppression and global domination........ of black Africans in particular but not limited to.
Capitalism is an economic system based on greed without regard to race.

I agree with and extend your definitions. I do not differentiate between white supremacy and capitalism. They are one. Their mutual characteristics include exploitation and domination for profit. The 1914-18 and 1939-45 conflicts between European nations, were imperial wars driven by the desire for political and economic domination. Europeans have killed one another in their 10s of millions since white supremacy/capitalism began in the 16/ 17th century. These were white supremacist/capitalist wars and skin colour mattered not one jot.

The first corporations (e.g., the Dutch East India Company), were created to profit from trade between Europe and Asia. This was the incorporation of capitalism and white supremacy.

White supremacy/capitalism is monotheistic. Everything is seen and interpreted through its lens. Capitalism is the exploitation of oneself and others for profit. White supremacy is the same. The construct of race was created to further capitalism. All major religions and nations bow down to white supremacy/capitalism. Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam and China, the communist monolith both serve capitalism as does every African nation.

Capitalism is pure evil.


It is a great pleasure reasoning with you....looking forward to your response.
LOVE Iyah

Yes, our reasoning is constructive, educative, creative and enjoyable.

Hotep.

[Blackstar*]

I don't have time to participate in the discussion, but came across this programme which could be of interest: http://www.televisionjamaica.com/Pro...x/Videos/36709

[franksterr]

Yes, our reasoning is constructive, educative, creative and enjoyable.

Hotep.

purejam


I don't know but just to let you know that you did not respond to my response to the body of your previous post at the end of page 6.



[quote]White supremacy/capitalism emerged in the 17th and 18th centuries. It was the driver of Western modernity the assumptions it produced were the opposite of those I mentioned. White supremacy/capitalism and Western modernity reached monism - one god, one faith, one economic system (capitalism), one cultural paradigm (European), one racial classification system, and so the list continues. Pluralism is the antithesis of Western modernity, as are diversity and heterogeneity. So why would Pan-Afrikanism challenge them?[/quote]

Pan Africanism challenges the assumption of White supremacy "racial classification" and "one cultural paradigm" wherein one group of people has access and control over capital and trade and effectively creates barriers to other groups enjoying the same access and or benefits.
Monism is a form of Pantheism which is not what I believe the "white supremacy" believe and or accepts, as it would not be compatible with the idea that one race is superior over another but Deism which is a direct outgrowth of the Renaissance movement.

Let's deal with diversity, which is the opposite of unity. Prior to European incursion the continent of Alkebu lan was populated by diverse peoples. The overwhelming majority of them lived and died never knowing or thinking about living on a continent.

Diversity is not the opposite of Unity, as you will see in any ecosystem that without diversity it will fail...Diversity and Complimentarity (Harmony) = Unity

That is not truth as 100 of thousands of manuscripts going all way back to 5th century AD on subjects as diverse as Mathematics, Geography Astronomy and Medicine etc. has now been release. These people knew the earth was a globe and one of many in a galaxy filled with numerous forms of life, they had maps of Green land and the Americas.
<span style="font-family: arial"><em><font color="#333333">

Founded in the 5th century by Tuareg Imashagan, Timbuktu owes its rise to its unique geographical location. It was a major trading post for goods traveling from West to North Africa. The trade in salt, books, and gold, by both African and Arab traders, led to the city’s economic rise as well as the creation of an important cultural exchange.

Perhaps the greatest historical significance of Timbuktu lies in its centrality to Islamic learning from the 13th to the 17th centuries, during the Mali Empire (1230-1600) and particularly Askia Mohammad I’s (1443-1558) rule. Timbuktu’s famous madrasas, including Koranic Sankore University, had some 25,000 students at their peak, where students and scholars studied religion and the arts and sciences.

While current news reports have focused on the destruction of tombs and mosques (of greater significance to Sufis), for historians, much of the city’s real historical value lies in its collections of 700,000 manuscripts. Many of Timbuktu’s manuscripts copies made by scholars, but many others are originals, already at risk from poor preservation methods and now at an even greater risk from the Ansar Dine
http://www.ultimatehistoryproject.com/timbuktu.html

The ideas of Africa and Africans took root in the minds of the architects of white supremacy/capitalism. It was white supremacy/capitalism that ignored the plurality, diversity and heterogeneity of the myriad peoples and cultures and faiths and languages and economic systems and polities that were active in the continent. Any solution should be premised on pluralism rather than monism, so some nations will be democratic, some monarchies, some communal, some republican and many other varieties that I haven't thought or know about. An acknowledgement of diversity rather than calls for unity should predominate in any solutions. Diversity includes working together on projects where there are common interests, whilst maintaining independence and distinctiveness.

Harmonious relations is a factor of unity - Functional Unity.
Even though there may have been differing cultures and languages in Pre-colonial Africa that does not mean they tend not work together when necessary.

I

understand and respect the aspirations of Selassie, Garvey, Nkrumah, Lumumba, Kenyatta and other adherents of Pan Africanism. The point I was making was that the concept of Africa was Eurocentric, so Pan Africanism was born out of and as a reaction to white supremacy/capitalism.

Yes Pan Africanism is a response to White supremacy, but to say the concept of Africa is Eurocentric is to deny the great civilizations that rule over great swath of Lands in Africa some nearly as large as present day Western Europe.

Moreover, there is no such thing as European or Asian unity, so why call for or expect African unity? Over a million killed in Kashmir. Over 100,000 in the Yugoslav wars. Maybe a million or more in the US civil war. Continental unity is a crack piped dream.

Of course there is European Unity what do you think the IMF, World Bank, GATT, EU,Vatican and other such organizations represent???

Every contemporary African nation state started out of the lips and ambitions of European imperial nations at the Berlin Conference 1884-5. The continent is a fiction, a horror story and a tragedy. The nations came out of the imperialist ambitions of Western nations. The concept of Nigeria is a fictional European construct and the Yorubas, Fulanis, Igbos, Tivs, Annangs and other nations that were falsely and forcibly 'unified' and 'homogenised' still have different languages and cultures. This is one of the major problems facing that continent. It is suffering from cultural identity psychosis because its political borders and the very existence of its nation states bear absolutely no relation to its political realities.

The "Yorubas, Fulanis, Igbos, Tivs, and Annangs" were there before the coming of the European and lived in there respective lands. They are not the creation of Europeans.
What the Europeans did was to foist on them arbitrary national boundaries - balkanization.
Without respect to their traditional and historical understandings among themselves as to where those boundaries lies in respect to their neighbors.
This was done so as to create and foster division among them.

Colonialism, neocolonialism, postcolonialism and now super imperialist globalisation. All of these political, economic and social constructs have been defined and operated by white supremacy/capitalism. What's more, they have continuously defined Africa and its nations, and the terms under which the African nations created by white supremacy/capitalism, continue to serve white supremacy/capitalism. Until we are clear and clinically objective about the scale and depth of situation, all suggested solutions will fail, confound and frustrate

There ability to define and control Africa rest primarily in their Military might and Propaganda Machinery which is kept alive by maintaining exclusive access to Raw Materials and Markets - Economics.
Pan Africanism Has not failed within Approximately 50 yrs of its founding most African Nations are now in control of its political destiny much more than it was before the 1940's. - overt colonialism is over.
Since the 1970's great strides have been made in many African countries as they continue to try and wrest control of their economies from Western powers

I agree with and extend your definitions. I do not differentiate between white supremacy and capitalism. They are one. Their mutual characteristics include exploitation and domination for profit. The 1914-18 and 1939-45 conflicts between European nations, were imperial wars driven by the desire for political and economic domination. Europeans have killed one another in their 10s of millions since white supremacy/capitalism began in the 16/ 17th century. These were white supremacist/capitalist wars and skin colour mattered not one jot.

Those were Capitalist War, for control of International Trade, Commerce and Sphere of Influence.
White Supremacy used Capitalism to further its goals but it is not the same.....White supremacy is race based policies heavily favoring whites.

The first corporations (e.g., the Dutch East India Company), were created to profit from trade between Europe and Asia. This was the incorporation of capitalism and white supremacy.

White supremacy/capitalism is monotheistic. Everything is seen and interpreted through its lens. Capitalism is the exploitation of oneself and others for profit. White supremacy is the same. The construct of race was created to further capitalism. All major religions and nations bow down to white supremacy/capitalism. Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam and China, the communist monolith both serve capitalism as does every African nation.

Capitalism is pure evil.

The concept of Race or Capitalism has been around from the time of Moses and ancient Arabia respectively, it is not new, what is new is racism as define by racist European.
Capitalism is the preeminent economic system on the globe, others have existed before and during it's reign.
Capitalism has now pretty much incorporated much of Socialism.
Early Capitalism (mercantilism) with it emphasis solely on Selfish Profit is dying.
Capitalism is only as Good or Evil as the people practicing it.

I think we can be more precise than that. White supremacy isn't about black and white. That's the illusory surface, the magic sleight of hand to distract us. As Tropicana and lonewolf argue in the thread on Irish so-called 'slavery' in the Caribbean, many thousands of Irish, as well as other Europeans were forcibly transported and coerced into labouring in Jamaica and elsewhere in the region. The mass inequalities in Western countries whether in Europe, North America or Australasia, isn't just targeted at people of African descent. Those in power, the small cabals who own and run the multinationals, the global energy companies, the finance systems and the military, they do not care about Europeans, they're not interested in skin colour. They cleave power to themselves, their families, their own.

White supremacy is about the White race all others are excluded and open to oppression and exploitation.
We often mistakenly equate white with European which was not always the case historically.
Case in point the Irish , the Poles, The Jews , and the Italians were not consider White races until the Late 1800's

True say, I don't blame or begrudge them. I look out for my family first and foremost. My kinfolk and my most immediate community. That community is comprised of like minded people sharing similar values working towards similar goals.

I hold them responsible.

I see the absolute contempt with which politicians and the owners/rulers of big business treat their so-called 'white' citizens and employees, they only value them as disposable, expendable pawns. We should talk about power in another thread.

That's Capitalism....a greedy Capitalist will sell his mother and brother for a profit if its great enough.
White supremacy is about hate based on ethnicity and or skin color

Haven't had this much fun on here for quite some time
Love Iyah