No guns for you!

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Increasing the access to firearms by more citizens will cause a slight decrease in murders and armed robberies </div></div>

you really think so? i think it will have the opposite effect. all like how jamaicans, through the slavery legacy, are conditioned to think a violent response when angered is an appropriate response (yes, mi know mi generalizing)...
</div></div>ehy the majority of Jamaicans in societies where they have liberal gun laws,don't wantonly murder their neighbors??
your proposal is similar to the talk that is peivalent in the business sector that Jamiacans are lazy.

Yet in every foreign country,these same Jamaicans prove to be much more of a workaholic than anything.
The exact opposite is the case.
and so it is.
Why after years of doing the opposite and reapong such result,are we so resistant to new ideas?

you want to tell me that mental slavery even override our experience that proves otherwise??.

[queenb]

Re: No guns for you!

The concept of legally arming people in Jamaica chills me. There is already too much violence; spawned not from the lower reaches of society, but from the top, where the powers that be steal from the citizens, causing wide-spread poverty. In earlier days this was the norm because the population lived in relative ignorance of the outside world and its trappings. Nowadays everyone has seen either films or t.v. and sees what the outside is like and compares it to their meager existence.
Why, they ask, do I have to live like this when the rest of the world (so they think) lives with riches. There is no viable way for them to achieve that level of living legally, so...

Ever since I first went to Jamaica in '97, the quality of living has declined for the average citizen, the monetary exchange rate is less than 1/2 of what it was, and the duly elected officials end up richer and richer.

[mountaingal]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Increasing the access to firearms by more citizens will cause a slight decrease in murders and armed robberies </div></div>

you really think so? i think it will have the opposite effect. all like how jamaicans, through the slavery legacy, are conditioned to think a violent response when angered is an appropriate response (yes, mi know mi generalizing)...
</div></div>ehy the majority of Jamaicans in societies where they have liberal gun laws,don't wantonly murder their neighbors??
your proposal is similar to the talk that is peivalent in the business sector that Jamiacans are lazy.

Yet in every foreign country,these same Jamaicans prove to be much more of a workaholic than anything.
The exact opposite is the case.
and so it is.
Why after years of doing the opposite and reapong such result,are we so resistant to new ideas?

you want to tell me that mental slavery even override our experience that proves otherwise??. </div></div>

lord, dudd, you're in a different argument from me. we're talking about jamaicans in jamaica, the culture of punishment that starts within the home, is reinforced in schools and is disseminated in different ways throughout the society, including the employer/employee relationship and is implicit in the badmanism and all that.

where did you see in what i wrote that jamaicans are lazy? what does laziness have to do with a cultural response that says violence is an appropriate expression of authority and power?

[jah_yout]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Increasing the access to firearms by more citizens will cause a slight decrease in murders and armed robberies </div></div>

you really think so? i think it will have the opposite effect. all like how jamaicans, through the slavery legacy, are conditioned to think a violent response when angered is an appropriate response (yes, mi know mi generalizing)...
</div></div>

really?

i haven't been conditioned in that way nor any of my peoples...slavery been over nearly 200 years </div></div>

think again.

i don't have to;
i never killed off my brother man for stupid reasons-
i was bunnin fiyah on the jamaican political situation at 9 years old--when i realized the killing was senseless--that it was divide and rule---
no conditioning here

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The concept of legally arming people in Jamaica chills me. There is already too much violence; spawned not from the lower reaches of society, but from the top, where the powers that be steal from the citizens, causing wide-spread poverty. In earlier days this was the norm because the population lived in relative ignorance of the outside world and its trappings. Nowadays everyone has seen either films or t.v. and sees what the outside is like and compares it to their meager existence.
Why, they ask, do I have to live like this when the rest of the world (so they think) lives with riches. There is no viable way for them to achieve that level of living legally, so...

Ever since I first went to Jamaica in '97, the quality of living has declined for the average citizen, the monetary exchange rate is less than 1/2 of what it was, and the duly elected officials end up richer and richer. </div></div> The only thing wrong about what you have said is the effects of a secured Jamaican majority. whrn Jamaicans feel secure they behave completely different from wgen they have to live liiokng over their shoulder.
i have seen this transformayion,over the years. and as to the notion that there is no opportunity for the upward mibilization og the majoroty poor,is not true. i suppose that is why i can profit from inveatmint based on prijecting hyman response to a proposed change.
if Jamaica want to bypass Cayman, Bermuda, barbados, Trinidad economically it start by doing this. if they want to continue down the road to total anarchy, they can keep the existing gun regime.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Look humano,you cant use your gut feeling to condemn the majority of Jamaicans to sure death at the hands if gun totting renegades.</div></div>

You should show me how I do that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">where do you find the supporting evidence that increase legal gun ownership will create more gun criminals?</div></div>

You must show me where I posited that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you know that every Gun,before it is licensed,have (sic) to be balistically fingerprinted according to Jamaican law??</div></div>

Yes, my uncle, a police officer with some responsibility in this area, did tell me about this. Still, criminals find ways of getting hold of the legal firearms of citizens.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you realize that only the areas in the US and Jamaica where there are low legal gun ownership has (sic) a high murder rate??</div></div>

I don't know this to be the case. And even if were, it's a <span style="font-style: italic">non sequitur</span>. You are drawing a <span style="font-weight: bold">causal</span> relationship between low legal gun ownership and a high incidence of murder. The fact that the two coincide is not in itself evidence that one causes the other. Based on talking to someone with some knowledge in this area, gun ownership in Mandeville in general is relatively low, even with upscale Ingleside, Godfrey Lands, etc. The town also has a relatively low murder rate. There are a number of areas in Jamaica with low gun ownership rates and also low murder rates. Similarly, there are lots of neighborhoods in the US where gun ownership is low (you may be surprised to know that there are people who think the 2nd Amendment does not confer an absolute right to bear arms) and where the rate of murder is also low.

You said: &quot;... <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">only</span></span> the areas in the US and Jamaica where there are low legal gun ownership has (sic) a high murder rate.&quot; This is false.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you know that the number of murders in the areas, you listed,is within the accepted range for civilized country?</div></div>

How cavalier of you! I happen to think that even one murder is too much.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you mean when you sak &quot; <span style="font-style: italic">Who exactly is the law abiding citizen? A man may be Ok until someone p-isses him off and he reaches for his knife or machete </span>?</div></div>

What's your problem here?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you suggesting that Jamaicans are more violent than Americans??</div></div>

No. Never even implied that; not sure how that question would even arise in your head.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what make you so superior that you would want a gun,but don't believe the normal law abiding citizen to have one??</div></div>

What a preposterous question! Who exactly is this so-called &quot;law-abiding citizen?&quot; I stated that that not every so-called law-abiding citizen will/should qualify for a firearm. Now you can refute that with well reasoned arguments but the relevance of your allusion to my supposed attitude of superiority escapes me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What make Jamaica so different from the us at independence why firearm rights though not originally enshrined in the constitution was ammended as a right?</div></div>

2nd Amendment jurisprudence would be a topic of its own. Suffice to say, the &quot;right of citizens to bear arms&quot; has been shown to be not an absolute right. As you are well aware, laws are passed that specifically prevent, in certain cases, citizens from legally owning firearms - the government invoking its police powers within which fall the duty to uphold the general health and welfare of citizens. Actually, this so-called right is really a previlege.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for the gun lobby you talking about ?
...that is just another figment if your imagination, with no basis in reality as the rest of your argument.</div></div>

Well, you are certainly entitled to that view.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try sociology as your next reading material. </div></div>

Now that's rich. I've talked about the socio-economic, political and moral roots of crime and violence in Jamaica on this board and other places. Contrary to your conclusions, I'm actually in favor of increasing gun ownership to more Jamaicans. I simply caution against the unintended consequences. I just don't consider arming all so-called law-abiding citizens as the panacea for violent criminality, just as I see politicians pontificating on the virtues of the death penalty as a solution to crime in Jamaica. But you're the sociologist, and I defer to you since you can offer up a learned treatise on the subject.

One last thing (as you like to say), you can have a serious and civil discussion or you can <span style="font-style: italic">fire cheap shots</span>.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Increasing the access to firearms by more citizens will cause a slight decrease in murders and armed robberies </div></div>

you really think so? i think it will have the opposite effect. all like how jamaicans, through the slavery legacy, are conditioned to think a violent response when angered is an appropriate response (yes, mi know mi generalizing)...
</div></div>

That's why I said that there will only be a <span style="font-weight: bold">slight decrease </span>in murders if there isn't an effort to deal with the root causes of crime and violence in Jamaica.

Within the Jamaican context, I don't find the 'self preservation' argument (as a deterrent) to be a persuasive one. But the good doctor will disagree.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!


Errol Weak is a joke this is one of those jokers that they giving greater and greater powers and who think that their positions qualify them to speak for all Jamaicans.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Increasing the access to firearms by more citizens will cause a slight decrease in murders and armed robberies but is not a lasting solution to Jamaica's crime problem. I don't know that 'self preservation' will overcome the propensity for criminality which has it deep roots in socio-economic, political and moral factors.

It won't be long before those intent on committing crimes target those who have firearms, a widening pool of firearm holders. And if you think that they will be deterred from finding ways to get those guns, simply because they might get shot while doing so, think again.</div></div>

Your premise is completely wrong. Widening the pool of trained firearm users will be a direct threat to untrained opportunistic gunmen.
Folks who own illegal weapons in Jamaica do not just own them to put on top of their dressers as figurines or in their breakfronts as a replacements for bone china. They are for defense or offense therefore there would be no need to get more guns once more guns are available, unless of course they are in the gun trade or the scrap metal business.

The only folks that the tightly held gun permit laws prevent from having firearms are the law-abiding folks. The man or woman who wants a gun can always source it. As proof of what I am saying to you, it has been my personal experience that when guns were hard to get they men who felt the need to own one took it off the still warm body of cop or a firearm holder.
Now that firearms are so easily available Cops are killed mostly as a result of robbery or a confrontation, where the gunman come face to face with an Officer doing his/her duty <span style="font-style: italic">(very rare)</span>.

With Citizens in the position to defend themselves, the lawbreaker has to make a choice, do you confront Mr. X or Ms. X knowing that it is likely that he or she might be packing legal heat and is trained to use it <span style="font-style: italic">(the theory of Mutually Assured Destruction)</span>? I see the gunman looking for softer targets or finding a job at Wendy’s.

[Bandana]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
yes in fact i AM ashamed..
you can barely read or watch anything on jamaica without them mentioning this...
have you seen this docum
http://english.aljazeera.net/program...510408444.html </div></div>

jah yout

I understand, I feel shame for what my ancestors did. It is not anything I had control over, it is not anything I can change, and yet I feel it...

When your people do bad it can't help but to reflect upon you in the eye of a bigger picture...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Click to reveal.. <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show me!" onclick="toggle_spoiler(this, 'Yikes, my eyes!', 'Show me!')" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">

now mek mi go watch the 2nd part of this video where this discussion actually comes into play

I been sitting here wondering what breadfruit got to do with it for 11 minutes now
</div></div></div>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Increasing the access to firearms by more citizens will cause a slight decrease in murders and armed robberies </div></div>

you really think so? i think it will have the opposite effect. all like how jamaicans, through the slavery legacy, are conditioned to think a violent response when angered is an appropriate response (yes, mi know mi generalizing)...
</div></div>...and we got that from slavery?
When did Slavery end in Jamaica?

[Bandana]

Re: No guns for you!

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people

[rudemonk]

Re: No guns for you!

the point that I would raise is two-fold- all illegal guns were at one point legal. it is not like drugs, which are made in secret, off the radar, and thus very difficult to control.

therefore to combat the problem of gun violence, one needs to understand how the guns are being obtained in the very first place, and stem that flow. Tons of guns flood into Jamaica from the US. I really can't imagine why it is so hard to stop the influx of guns.

Since there is already in place a method for citizens - ostensibly- to get legal firearms for protection of self, it would seem to me that this conclusion is only logical- lots of people have legal guns and they still die. Of all the people I know, and I can tick off far more than I care to remember, all were slain by illegal guns.

In many cases, they would have died and did die even though they themselves were armed.

Secondly, I think it is pretty easy to get a gun. Pretty much everyone knows where they can get one, and if they don't know it's pretty easy to find out. Nature abhors a vacuum. Legal or illegal, it's a bit of a moot point. Here in NYC they mostly come from states with lax gun laws. In Jamaica, you just ask and someone will have something to sell you. It's actually pretty easy, sorry to say.

[rudemonk]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...Last week one man had to flee from his car after three gunman try hold him up and kill him. If he had a gun then it would be a different story because cutlass can't fight gun,&quot; Smith said.

</div></div>

this may be of interest to Mr. Smith.

http://roavapd.blogspot.com/2008/10/21-foot-rule.html

Friday, October 3, 2008
21 Foot Rule
I received the following question in my inbox:

<span style="font-style: italic">How does the &quot;21 foot rule&quot; get incorporated into everyday activities like stopping cars or intervening in domestic disputes?

In case you call it something different in your department, I mean this rule:

http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/force-science/articles/102828/

Thanks for your entertaining and informative blog, and stay safe out there!

Best regards,
</span>

For my readers who don't want to read a long article about police tactics, I'll quote some key points.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video &quot;Surviving Edged Weapons,&quot; the &quot;rule&quot; states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.

The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.
</span>

And:
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. &quot;Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance,&quot; Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

</span>
I remember my academy training well. We watched the video &quot;Surviving Edged Weapons&quot; mentioned in the article. They had role players with rubber knives rush a police officer in training. The role player often got multiple stabs and slashes in before the victim officer was able to draw his weapon even. That's from 21 feet away.

When we were at the shooting range training, the instructors put one of us with a loaded gun in the holster in front of a paper target. Behind him another recruit got ready to run. Even from the ready position with the knowledge he was going to shoot, the runner covered over 25 feet before two rounds were fired. And unlike Hollywood people don't just drop dead from one shot (unless you score a very difficult head shot.)

Someone on drugs or alcohol in an adrenaline hazed rage will take multiple gun shots and still get on you with that knife and inflict a lot of damage if not death.

Obviously knives are a big concern to police officers. Look around next time you are shopping at the front pockets of the people around you. You will see a lot of men, and some women, carrying tactical folding knives. The tell tale clip will be there on the corner of the pocket probably closest to the outside of their leg.

Now that doesn't mean a cop is going to walk around shooting everyone with a knife clipped in their pocket.

It doesn't even mean that I'm going to take that knife away from everyone I come into contact with either. And I also can't walk around at work with a 30 foot reactionary bubble around me and keep everyone out of it.

We train a lot to watch the hands and read body language. If someone is agitated or I suspect they are involved with a crime I am investigating I will collect any edged weapons they have. At the end of our contact I will of course return it, or if I arrest them, give it to the deputies at jail to keep with the rest of their property while staying there.

Someone who becomes aggressive in any way and is armed with a knife is likely to get shot. We will try to put distance and object between us and the armed person if we can. But as noted above there may not be time.

Back in the day, old time cops will tell you that they never drew their gun during their career. Research like that noted above, as well as tactical updates, changed that, though. I rarely go a shift where I don't draw my gun. Having a gun in hand or at the low ready (not pointed at anyone) drastically reduces your reaction time to get it on target and shoot if needed. Any time now that I am going into something that is unknown and potentially volatile the gun will be in my hand.

For instance, you go to a domestic dispute and when you get there it sounds like active fighting or a violent argument. The gun will be in hand when knocking at the door. When the door is answered and I can see hands that are empty, the gun will go back in the holster. Most of the time people don't even see it or realize it. I may just be holding it behind my leg and the only giveaway is the snap of the holster when I put it back.

The 21 foot rule means that you have to be alert at all times, and you have to be prepared before the attack occurs. If you wait until it starts you are too late.
Posted by RoaVaPD at 01:46
Labels: 21 foot rule, edged weapons, knife, knives, shoot
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2 comments:

fuzzys dad said...
This is a rule taught in the Department of Corrections also. As a former Correctional Officer I understand this rule. And what can happen.

October 3, 2008 2:04 PM
Berserk said...
We do a lot of exercises at the range involving moving around while drawing, in part because of the Tueller drill.

[Wahalla]

Re: No guns for you!

As I hate guns.. Having watched the effect and witnessed the sheer terror that 9 or 10 year olds can wreck with a Kalashnikov till you Mozambique tap him.. I adhore the idea of gun filled society.

However given that I beleive poltics is about playing the hand you are dealt.. <span style="font-weight: bold">Personally if I went to live in Jamaica I want to own a gun.. </span>And regularly practice with it with the intention of killing any assilant who would confrotn me... Again when I am in Jamaica I ahng with gun owners....Men who are liecened to carry weapons....

There was a contempory of me and Rich D at munro.. Name of Kalamesh... He picked up his fathers liecened revolver...fired it at his brother who ran off in terror.. He laughed at his brother told him it was unloaded.. he then put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger and blew his brains out...

Now here is the thing... He was a brown youth like Obama.. was he black ?

The seacond person I knew who died by the gun was a rasta man.. He stole a calf from an aluminium company farm.. It was reported to the police... who did nothing... The farm manager told him if he did it again he would shoot him.. He stole another calf.. The farm manager shot him in cold blood... The farm manager was never procecuted.... He lost his job on the farm.... He was a white Jamaican..... Never procecuted...


Still I recall my father not being able to get a gun liecence for personal protection.. This was after several people threatened our lives and the police told him that it was suffera time suh dem nah duh nuting....

You see this is why I wonder if my Jamaican life was real.. I read stuff on here and wonder.. It seems like at times I can only relate to incidents mentioned by Tuffy and the Doc....Did you guys not have similar experiences ?????

Still Jack man dora mi nuh chose nune