No guns for you!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Guns are not manufactured commercially in Jamaica but firearms are being made in Jamaica. </div></div>

since we're looking at exact words, why don't you look where I said exactly that. however from this exchange it seems clear you like to cherry pick, in which case I would say I am having a conversation not submitting a thesis and would expect the courtesy of recognizing that. You still aren't getting the relatively moot point, which is ironic when you say it is moot but argue it anyway. At least I hope you see where your salmonella argument fails, and if you do then you should be able to recognize why you really aren't addressing the logic of my argument at all. Now you just need to apply that to a lot of other things you feel you are poking holes in. I don't know if this has to do with a purposeful desire to be obtuse so you have something to argue about with yourself or if you are just ignorant about law enforcement and how guns can be traced. &quot;I have no proof&quot; vs &quot;not posting proof&quot; are two different things as you seem to be fond of pointing out. I preferred not to get anecdotal and so went with the obvious 2 points which can be observed by any mouthbreather looking at the problem. 1. ALL ILLEGAL GUNS BEGIN THEIR LIFE AS LEGAL firearms. 2. GUNS CAN BE TRACED. So right there it is obvious there is a breakdown somewhere between legal and illegal weapons. If that were fixed, then there would be less guns available and less people resorting to gun violence. I feel that is a far better solution, if a part of an overall solution, than just making it easy for any tom dick or harry to get a gun. Guns are already easy to get, whether legal or illegal what difference does a turn of phrase mean. So to foam on about making legal guns easy to get makes no sense. If you really need one, get one. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 is I believe the NRA bumper sticker for that premise. Some people can't even drive, so why we want them to have power of life or death is beyond me.

These two basic points can not be argued, unless you wish to be woefully ignorant. So guns manufactured in the US need tighter controls and should not be so easy to export to other countries. When the US gets uppity they burn fields of poppy or coca, because these are processed and exported to US shores and it is considered a problem. They burn ganja, for basically the same reason.

So the fact that US manufactured guns make it into Jamaica by whatever circuitous route represents a traceable problem for which there are or should be implementable solutions. And in fact the routes are traced quite a bit and I'm surprised you are ignorant of them as to me they seem obvious. In any case, it's safe to say, conversationally, that many guns in Jamaica get their start in the US.

my logic is sound and obvious. less illegal guns on the street = less gun murders and more friends who would be alive today. in fact that can be said including LEGAL guns as well, because just because you have one doesn't mean you get a chance to draw it and I know a few people who bore weapons but never got the chance to defend themselves, which is why I also posted about the 21' rule amongst LEOs which some forces have upgraded to 30' in response to Mr. Smith's observation that he didn't think a cutlass could stand against a gun.
</div></div>

...and idiot as I said before your arguments are baseless and without an ounce of sense you still cannot definitively say that a gun manufactured in the USA and end up on the streets of Jamaica is necessarily a gun imported from the USA. You are writing a bag of cow manure while still mixing up the issues of gun manufacture and gun importation in Jamaica.

Further more you seem overly fixated on the USA as if you know for sure that the any of, all of or most of the guns in Jamaica were manufactured in the USA. Fool if you are privy to that info spill it because I don't know and I am pretty sure others would like to get the knowledge as well.

Oh and idiot you are claiming not to be defending a thesis yet you proceed to lecture me on what? Next time before you commit your screed to the board try use spell-check.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: No guns for you!

TG,
no need for name-calling. You can make your points without it.

Besides, Monk is a good boardite. I've had valuable exchanges with him/her in the religion/philosophy forum.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TG,
no need for name-calling. You can make your points without it.

Besides, Monk is a good boardite. I've had valuable exchanges with him/her in the religion forum. </div></div>LOL..How come...no one ever say to the next person don't call <span style="font-weight: bold">TG Names</span>?
The guy is an idiot.

[rudemonk]

Re: No guns for you!

lmao.

a gun made in the USA, purchased in the USA, then makes it's way into Jamaica never came from the USA. Guns become illegal several ways, but they always start as legal purchases. Any fool can find a gun to buy.

it's like dropping a bottle of Dom P on the table. Yes it was purchased locally- either on a legit market or black, but any fool can say it came from France.

and with that, and a few citations for my lecture, I rest my case.

LOL!! now I'm supposed to, I suppose from the goodness of my fool heart, educate you!!!!! How a fool and idiot such as myself could be requested by you to educate you, is really quite a joke you've made yourself. If you don't know, good for you, stay that way until you remember your manners, maybe you would learn something.

Your condition is only material to me as far as I choose to make it when I click on the post button so say whatever it makes zero difference to the outcome and I'm not one to be goaded into these long bile ridden threads.

That last spit made me laugh so much it deserves to be typed all the way out and in caps. LAUGH OUT LOUD.

Make another whack analogy about salmonella please or perhaps try and push somebody else's buttons with whom you might have some success.

humano- thanks for the kind words, but it's completely unnecessary. I wouldn't insult Tuff just because I think he is wrong, but he seems incapable of hearing dissenting opinions without blowing a stack and whining about being moderated and clearly, via his salmonella analogy, he is having difficulty grasping converging ideas and concepts as regards this subject matter. Ahem, &quot;Lectures.&quot; LOL. Whatever. I'm sure the next step in the I'm a Victim segment we usually witness in threads like this will come when he claims whoever disagrees with him blows some kind of whistle on him with mods. As if one would have to.

Personally, I don't think that much of him to bother with it.

but for the sake of the point:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaican police commissioner focuses on illegal gun trade with Haiti
30 December 2007

Kingston, Jamaica: New Police Commissioner Hardley Lewin has put his focus on the illegal gun trade between Jamaica and Haiti, which has been linked to a surge in gun crimes here.

Lewin said &quot;the relevant section&quot; of the Jamaica Constabulary Force has been given two weeks to start high level talks with its counterparts in Port-au-Prince, The Sunday Gleaner reported.

&quot;We have to get a much better handle on what is happening on the ground in Haiti and get some authority in Haiti much more closely involved,&quot; the commissioner said.

He said the local police will have to move quickly and decisively to deal with the gun-smuggling between the two Caribbean nations.

According to security experts, Haiti and the United States are the two main sources of illegal firearms entering Jamaica - the United States supplying most of the new weapons, with Haiti a major market for second-hand guns.

Text of report by Caribbean Media Corporation news agency

http://www.haiti-info.com/spip.php?article4406

</div></div>

and

<span style="font-weight: bold">More evidence of drugs-for-guns trade between Jamaica and Haiti [b]

mardi 6 février 2007



By Charles Arthur

London, 6 Feb. 07 [AlterPresse] --- Jamaican police have carried out a series of arrests and seizures of firearms that appear to confirm long-held suspicions of the existence of an extensive criminal network smuggling marijuana and guns between Jamaica and the nearby nation of Haiti.

On February 4th, following a shoot-out between Jamaican police and an unidentified man in Spanish Town in the central parish of St Catherine, a gun was recovered from the man who had been shot dead by the police. The weapon was found to have originated in Haiti and to have once belonged to a Haitian police officer. &quot;The firearm was stolen from the Haitian police,&quot; said Jamaican police inspector, Steve Brown. &quot;We suspect that it’s a part of the ongoing ’guns for drugs’ trade between Jamaica and Haiti, and again this raises concerns about the viable trade that is going on.&quot;

Jamaican police officials have sought the assistance of international policing organisation, Interpol, to try and locate the Haitian police officer to whom the gun was issued, and to determine how the gun got into the hands of local criminals.

&quot;We want to know how this gun reached our shores,&quot; said Assistant Commissioner Glenmore Hinds, head of Operation Kingfish, the special police unit formed in October 2004 to counter drug-trafficking and to stem the rising crime rate and gang violence in Jamaica.

Just a few days earlier, on February 1st, officers from Operation Kingfish carried out a raid on the Hampton Court area of St Thomas that netted four illegal handguns, which the lawmen believe had just arrived from Haiti, and resulted in the arrest of 11 people, including three Haitians and a Honduran. The arrests were made by police with the assistance of a Jamaica Defence Force (Army) helicopter, and those arrested were airlifted from St Thomas to the Jamaican capital, Kingston.

Assistant Commissioner of Police Hinds said that some of those arrested had been under surveillance for some time, and indicated that several business interests are believed to be responsible for the financing of a massive drugs-for-guns smuggling ring between Jamaica and Haiti.

Police sources allege that a St Elizabeth woman, who is among the detainees, accompanied her Honduran husband on a recent trip by boat to Haiti, and returned to Jamaica with the three Haitians. Hinds told the local daily newspaper, The Gleaner, &quot;Our intelligence has suggested that persons operating legitimate businesses are now employing people as ’fishermen’ to transport the drugs to Haiti and trade it in for the guns.&quot; According to Hinds, powerful handguns and sub-machine weapons are being traded in the other direction from Haiti to Jamaica.

Just a week earlier, Jamaican police arrested three Haitians in connection with two large marijuana busts. In the first operation, that took place in the community of Orange Hill, in the western parish of Westmoreland, on January 25th, two Haitians were detained after authorities discovered a one-acre marijuana field. The spokesman for Operation Kingfish, Inspector Brown, said a police team also went to the central parish of Clarendon where a large quantity of marijuana was seized, and another Haitian arrested.

Brown said, &quot;The fact that these Haitians are getting involved in criminal activities means we will be asking the authorities to take a serious look at the status of these Haitians who are in Jamaica. A lot of them came here under the disguise that they are seeking refuge, but soon they get involved in the illegal gun and drug trade...&quot;

The Operation Kingfish discoveries come just weeks after Haitian President René Préval made a working visit to Jamaica during which he discussed the illegal trade in drugs and guns between the two countries with Jamaican Prime Minister, Portia Simpson. At a joint press conference on January 3rd, the two leaders stressed that security forces in both countries were taking strident moves to curtail the illegal gun and narcotics trade. Further talks on the issue are expected at the first Jamaica/Haiti Joint Commission, in Jamaica, during the second quarter of 2007.

Speaking to reporters following the meeting with President Préval, Prime Minister Simpson said Jamaica’s security forces would be working closely with Haitian authorities in several areas. &quot;Bringing guns into Jamaica to kill poor people is something not to be tolerated. It has to be dealt with....(and) I believe that the people bringing them in - the traffickers - are to be taken by surprise. That’s the only way we are going to end this,&quot; she said.

President Préval said Jamaica stood to benefit if Haiti was made a more stable democracy, &quot;because if we continue to be a weak state, weapons will continue to come into the country to kill Jamaicans.&quot;

In a study published in 2005, the Small Arms Survey estimated that as many as 170,000 small arms are held illegally in Haiti (the total population is 8.3 million), and later the same year, the UK’s Control Arms Campaign called for a new international Arms Trade Treaty, based on the principles of international law, to help reduce the human cost of irresponsible arms transfers. As part of the campaign, Oxfam GB produced a report entitled, [b]’The Call for Tough Arms Control : Voices from Haiti.’ This report noted that “Haiti produces no firearms itself except for home-made ‘Creole’ guns which are usually crude handguns or rifles made from old ones. Most arms are smuggled into Haiti from neighbouring countries in the region, including from the USA.”</span>

On his return to from Jamaica to Haiti President Préval made an annual address to the National Assembly (Parliament) during which he said Haiti remained a &quot;victim of drug-consuming countries&quot;, accusing the <span style="font-weight: bold">United States in particular of not doing enough to help to fight the illegal trade. Most of the marijuana smuggled into Haiti from Jamaica, as well as the cocaine coming in from Colombia and Venezuela, is destined for the North American market.</span>

Renewing a criticism that he made during his first presidential term (1996-2001), Préval accused drug-consuming countries of blaming Haiti for failing to stop drug-trafficking, while doing little to boost the country’s weak defences. He said, &quot;A lot of crimes happening in the country are connected to drugs. But everybody knows that Haiti doesn’t produce drugs. Haiti isn’t a big consumer of drugs. ... <span style="font-weight: bold">Haiti is the victim of drug-consuming countries, mainly the United States.&quot;</span>

During 2006 there were indications that marijuana from Jamaica was being smuggled into Haiti en route to the United States in ever-greater quantities. At the beginning of November, Jamaican police seized 1,598 pounds of compressed marijuana with an estimated street value of US$570,000 in separate operations in Kingston and Portland. “Six hundred and thirty pounds were found along the Manchioneal beach in Portland, waiting to be picked up by a boat,&quot; according to Carlton Wilson, head of the local Narcotics Division. Wilson added, &quot;We understand that from time to time go-fast boats are used to pick up drugs in Manchioneal and transport them to Haiti or the Bahamas.&quot; On the same day, police detected a stash of compressed marijuana, packed in the flooring of a 40-foot container at the terminal in Kingston.

On December 16th police arrested two men and seized 40 parcels of compressed marijuana on the beach at Leath in the parish of St Thomas. The police believed that the men were about to depart by boat with the marijuana, with the intention of delivering the drugs to Haiti. [ca apr 06/02/2007 13:00]

[rudemonk]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...and idiot as I said before your arguments are baseless and without an ounce of sense you still cannot definitively say that a gun manufactured in the USA and end up on the streets of Jamaica is necessarily a gun imported from the USA. </div></div>

you can trace guns, guns are traced all the time by law enforcement. sometimes they even come from LEOs who sell them!!! I didn't realize I had you at such a disadvantage on this topic that you really needed education on the subject matter. Ignorance like this is sometimes painful.

these facts are obvious and I don't think I really need to provide proof to something you can easily google if you care enough to type out a reply why not choose not to and use this resource of the internet. it would be like saying the earth rotates 1 time in 24 hours and then having to link you to NASA to 'prove' it. give me a break and stop being obtuse, it's not even annoying.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lmao.

a gun made in the USA, purchased in the USA, then makes it's way into Jamaica never came from the USA. Guns become illegal several ways, but they always start as legal purchases. Any fool can find a gun to buy. </div></div>
Idiot le me remind you:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tons of guns flood into Jamaica from the US.</div></div>
Can you prove this?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...and idiot as I said before your arguments are baseless and without an ounce of sense you still cannot definitively say that a gun manufactured in the USA and end up on the streets of Jamaica is necessarily a gun imported from the USA. </div></div>

you can trace guns, guns are traced all the time by law enforcement. sometimes they even come from LEOs who sell them!!! I didn't realize I had you at such a disadvantage on this topic that you really needed education on the subject matter. Ignorance like this is sometimes painful.

these facts are obvious and I don't think I really need to provide proof to something you can easily google if you care enough to type out a reply why not choose not to and use this resource of the internet. it would be like saying the earth rotates 1 time in 24 hours and then having to link you to NASA to 'prove' it. give me a break and stop being obtuse, it's not even annoying. </div></div>
Idiot I was a cop for five (5) years. The same guy quoted here in the article was on of my Instructors at The Police Training School.
Idiot can you prove this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tons of guns flood into Jamaica from the US.</div></div>

[rudemonk]

Re: No guns for you!

if somebody repeatedly asks me to prove to them a red wall is red I usually take that as my cue to depart for more interesting pursuits.

maybe for some jerk pork, lmao.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if somebody repeatedly asks me to prove to them a red wall is red I usually take that as my cue to depart for more interesting pursuits.

maybe for some jerk pork, lmao. </div></div>
Idiot can you prove this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tons of guns flood into Jamaica from the US.</div></div>

[rudemonk]

Re: No guns for you!

you seem a little fragile.

why'd you quit the force, out of curiousity.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you seem a little fragile.

why'd you quit the force, out of curiousity. </div></div>
Idiot can you prove this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tons of guns flood into Jamaica from the US.</div></div>

[rudemonk]

Re: No guns for you!

dump your cache. it will fix a lot of glitches, seems like you are spamming the thread.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dump your cache. it will fix a lot of glitches, seems like you are spamming the thread. </div></div>

Idiot can you prove this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tons of guns flood into Jamaica from the US.</div></div>

[RichD]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">In this gun debate let's not shoot from the lip</span>

Tuesday, February 03, 2009

There is merit in the arguments advanced by both sides in the current debate on relaxing the rules governing the ownership of licensed firearms.

Those opposed make a strong case that ownership of a gun carries with it a great degree of responsibility and that licensed firearm holders are often the target of criminal gunmen eager to increase their armoury.

One teacher with whom the Observer spoke last week made another significant point that there is already a heavy gun culture in the country that has had a negative effect on the minds of the young.

&quot;There are already too many guns in our society, and I think bringing more into the mainstream would only make matters worse,&quot; the teacher said.

Other opponents of the gun lobby have also raised the issue of temperament, fearing that if more people were armed the country would experience an increase in shootings.

<span style="font-weight: bold">For example, bad driving and discourtesy on our roads are so rampant that angry motorists, it is conceivable, could resort to gun violence, if they were carrying a firearm at the time. Same thing goes for someone who is robbed of a parking space after a long wait. We remember vividly the case of the July 2001 incident at Our Place Jerk Centre on Hope Road in Kingston when three men died in a gunfight over parking.</span>

These things happen elsewhere.

The gun lobbyists, on the other hand, make an equally compelling case, arguing that too many people are defenceless in the face of growing acts of violence committed by armed thugs.

If criminals knew that people had the ability to defend themselves they would think twice about their actions, the lobbyists claim, adding that training in self-defence and the use of firearms is essential to their proposal for a relaxing of the legislation.

There are, of course, many studies from other jurisdictions that provide data supporting the arguments raised by both sides in this debate. And those data, we expect, will eventually be highlighted as this issue is further ventilated.

We feel, though, that any decision taken by the authorities on this matter should be influenced by facts relative to Jamaica rather than emotion. For instance, how many licensed firearm holders are held up and/or killed and robbed of their guns each year? How many acts of violence are prevented by licensed firearm holders? How often does the mere sight of a firearm discourage an attacker? How many cases of accidental shootings by owners of legal firearms have been recorded? And what level of training are the owners of licensed firearms exposed to?

These are some of the questions that need to be answered before any decision is taken either way on this matter. For as we said, valid points have been raised by both sides.

The police, we suspect, should have some of this data, but there is need for a wider and more detailed study devoid of the dangers of advocacy research.</div></div>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: No guns for you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote]<span style="font-weight: bold">In this gun debate let's not shoot from the lip</span>

Tuesday, February 03, 2009 </div></div>

Perfect headline!