Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

**Tropicana** · 03-21-2009, 02:30 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it always struck me that people who are born abrawd wi expalin Jamaica tuh mi.. </div></div>

Surely you aren't talking about me. I was born IN JAMAICA and I have lived and worked there. I would NEVER be so presumptious as to gwan like I know more about Jamaica than you, Britisha, Dr, Dudd, Tuff Gong, Afer, and others. I didn't grow up there so of course you know more. Of course I don't have the same perspective as you do and may interpret things differently. I have studied our history a lot though and at times I am surprised that there are things that I know that some of the other boardites who grew up there don't know. I guess we have to pool and share our knowledge.

**Tropicana** · 03-21-2009, 02:35 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

Gen. if I use the "i" word to refer to you I'll get in trouble so let me put it another way. During slavery who the heck do you think took care of the flippin' horses?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Hint:</span> They were kept in <span style="font-weight: bold">stables</span> and exercised in the <span style="font-weight: bold">field</span>.

Did you REALLY think that the white folks kept them in the house for the house negroes to look after.

Facety, bright and out a ordah!

**diabolical_Tanya** · 03-21-2009, 02:37 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it always struck me that people who are born abrawd wi expalin Jamaica tuh mi.. </div></div>

Surely you aren't talking about me. I was born IN JAMAICA and I have lived and worked there. I would NEVER be so presumptious as to gwan like I know more about Jamaica than you, Britisha, Dr, Dudd, Tuff Gong, Afer, and others. I didn't grow up there so of course you know more. Of course I don't have the same perspective as you do and may interpret things differently. I have studied our history a lot though and at times I am surprised that there are things that I know that some of the other boardites who grew up there don't know. I guess we have to pool and share our knowledge. </div></div>

Just because you grow up somewhere don't mean you going to know everything about the place/history etc. I too was born and raised in Jamaica and my family (parents etc) still live there and yet even though I went to school in Kgn there are places there I have never touched foot in and still know noting about. And even though I was born and raised in St Ann there are things about the Garden parish I know nothing of.

**rufian** · 03-21-2009, 03:10 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes my perspective would be totally different. I agree. That's why I enjoy talking with you.

Now this is where the confusion come in for me. I must be missing something. If you were all going to school together and in the same neighbourhoods, how come these divisions remained.</div></div>

You *are* missing something. I cannot spell out everything here. I came from a poorer neighbourhood and rode the bus to this school which I attended with these girls..at the end of the school day, their parents drove their jeeps and cars and picked them up and I rode the bus back to my *hood* <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now, I must clarify, I am basing this on what I saw in Jamaica during the 70s. I don't know if before that communities were segregated. Perhaps you could clarify. I was too young when I left Jamaica to be aware of this.</div></div>

In the sociological sense of the word, Jamaica had NO "segregated" neighbourhoods...it was just a matter of poor Jamaican blacks could not afford to live in richer, exclusive neighbourhoods...and oh yes, Tropicana, some black girls who I attended High School with, did live in some of those richer areas.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now I remember my folks saying that in their town the Whites used to play tennis and the Black people didn't. It was a BIG deal when one of our cousins was the first Black person to be invited to join the tennis club. Again, this struck me as odd.</div></div>
Guess what, we had a tennis court at High School, but none of us played...a gulf course was right next door, and none of us played there...it was out of my league.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

guess the reason I make a big deal about it is that the excuse some Black men give for marrying White is that they have been in a society where the majority of women are White and so they perceive "White" as the ideal. It's odd to me that in a society where the majority of women are Black, the reverse wouldn't hold true. Also if these men are financially successful and educated (and not all of them are). Why would they not be perceived as desireable partners?</div></div>Funny that you should say theis, I was listening to a show on the radio where some south African sisters were saying the same thing about their men...and the reason that they give is. the society INGRAINED in the heads of the blacks that *we* were inferior, and the whites were superior, so they subconsciously held on to this myth and demonstrated it in marrying to "whites" so as to feel as if they are not inferior...[this is what was said, and not that I support this explanation wholeheartedly...]

... </div></div>
Sounds familiar even to the tennis court.
For me this experience was necessary and eliminated having complex towards whites and the likes, because many others never got close enough to the people they have high up on the lamp post to see that they are just humans like them. Many of these 'rich??' white & or lightskinned were actually dumber. Even there the experience didnt help all though, some stupid ones would help them with their homeworks to get favours later in life. and the teachers were unfortunately racially biased although they were blacks.

**Gen** · 03-21-2009, 03:17 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

suh wah yuh a tell mi dat fah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gen. if I use the "i" word to refer to you I'll get in trouble so let me put it another way. During slavery who the heck do you think took care of the flippin' horses?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Hint:</span> They were kept in <span style="font-weight: bold">stables</span> and exercised in the <span style="font-weight: bold">field</span>.

Did you REALLY think that the white folks kept them in the house for the house negroes to look after.

Facety, bright and out a ordah! </div></div>

**rufian** · 03-21-2009, 03:19 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Serenity82</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> True! True! </div></div>

Tropicana:

My first real love was an Indian Jamaican, my mother grandfather was mostly white and I know so many couples where the woman was black and man indian or asian or white so this topic is a bit out there!
</div></div>
Interesting. Very Interesting. You got two mongoloid eyes?

**Tropicana** · 03-21-2009, 03:20 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And field negros participate in equestrian events like you do? </div></div>

Godnight.

**Gen** · 03-21-2009, 03:31 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

where is BP the F22 over the head and the equestrian

ah deading

**rufian** · 03-21-2009, 03:49 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

Thanks for the info you brought on the Syrians and so on. Even though it is obvious.
I was always curious why and when Lebanese and Syrians came into the region but not interested enough to go looking. Needless to say I wouldnt get info from my locality is what i think. I never got to checking for information on other islands although I think it might help.

I used to be in a newsgroup years ago that was researching genealogical information in the Caribbean but I lost the email info with it. Anybody know where there is a list of family names for the Jews of Spanish and Portuguese origins in Jamaica?
I have two family names that I cannot find references for through easy sources.

**jah_yout** · 03-21-2009, 05:48 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> More for Jah Youth

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">The first slaves reached Jamaica before 1517,</span></span> when Jamaica was still under Spanish rule. They landed in the most successful port </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 14pt">Jews of Portugese-Spanish ancestry first landed on the island some 40 years later in 1530.</span></span></span> They made their homes in Spanish Town, then known as St. Jago de la Vega the only operating town on the island at the time. After many years, groups of Jews approached their Spanish governor and requested permission to settle on the island. Permission was duly granted.
</div></div>

However, MOST slaves were brought to Jamaica under British rule. So my statement that the Jews have been in Jamaica longer than most of the Blacks is correct. Check the numbers.

</div></div>

i may be missing something but this still doesn't tell me how jews were in jamaica before africans

**rufian** · 03-21-2009, 06:05 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

Looks like Tropicana is mixing up 'the first' for 'all'.

but you come in with the same mixup with 'all' for 'some'
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jews were in jamaica before africans</div></div>

**Tropicana** · 03-21-2009, 08:39 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i may be missing something but this still doesn't tell me how jews were in jamaica before africans </div></div>

Get out your calculator and do the math. I didn't say the Jews were in Jamaica before the Africans, I said before MOST of the Blacks...MOST.

The Jews came starting in 1530. There were relatively few Blacks in Jamaica as late as 1662.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under the command of Penn and Venables the English captured Jamaica from the Spanish in 1655. In 1662 there were about 400 Negro slaves on the island. </div></div>

Hence, MOST of the Blacks came AFTER 1662. My gosh, why do I have to spell EVERYTHING out for you. You do the math yourself.

Spinoff: There is some really interesting information from some of the early census data on Jamaica. I wish I could remember where to put my hands on the census data collected by the Spanish. If someone wants to spin this off to a new thread, I'll try to put my hands on it.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> EDITED TO ADD:</span>

I am not sure if this is still in print but you can definitely find it at some university libraries. You can find some Jamaican census data during the Spanish era in:

F. Cundall and J.S. Pietersz <span style="font-weight: bold">Jamaica Under the Spaniards, abstracted from the archives of Seville </span>1919

<span style="font-style: italic">As an aside, <span style="font-weight: bold">the July 1611 </span> census data collected by the Spanish lists the total number of Taino in Jamaica as 74. I am SURE Wahalla will dispute this. We can conclude that the others were either invisible or hiding in the mountains. <span style="font-style: italic"> Sorry couldn't resist.</span> That's why I have questionned Wahalla's ascertian that pure Taino survived into the modern area.

BTW, at that time there were 523 Spaniards, 558 enslaved Blacks (so the slave, population declined after that), and 107 Free Blacks. Alas, at the time I recorded that data, I wasn't focusing on the Jewish population so one would have to dig up the original volume.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The Portuguese Jews of Jamaica </span>(Dec 2000) by Mordechai Arbell, available from Amazon, would definitely have a lot of related information. As well as:

<span style="font-weight: bold">500 Years in the Jewish Caribbean: The Spanish & Portuguese Jews in the West Indies </span>by Harry A. Ezratty

<span style="font-weight: bold">Jewish Pirates of the Caribbean: How a Generation of Swashbuckling Jews Carved Out an Empire in the New World in Their Quest for Treasure, Religious Freedom--and Revenge</span> by Edward Kritzler

People should also check out the Jewish Jamaican surnames at the fantastic Jamaican Family fantastic site:

http://jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Samples/jewish.htm

After visiting this site, some Black Jamaicans have been surprised to discover that they are descended from Portuguese Jews (yes there was some inter-marriage).

**britisha** · 03-21-2009, 09:24 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

A mek some a oono a gwwan like seh ppl haffie quote oono verbatim and cannot seh wha dem waan seh innah fi dem owna words..TRADITION and CULTURE are NOT one and the same thing...

..mi seh the culture is what DICTATES how some of the Middle Eastern folks deal with selecting a spouse.....hiff smaddie helse seh ie so wha????....while sinting might be traditionally based, it CAN change..."culcha" serious culcha is annada thing...Check Iran and some of those countries where women are now showing their faces...no veil...this is opposed vehemently by some of the older folks because they think their culture is being eroded, changed to that of the demonic Westerners..and we see what some of this has done to likkle JAMAICA..but then, that is anadda topic. ..and let me kwickly add, being in the West, I support those who want women to REMOVE the veil.

mi juss love when some journalists visit dem country and have to uphold their cultural norms or get them baxides thrown in jail. .

this is why *I* mourn blacks in the Diaspora losing some of our culture...

The other matter is, When the Mahfoods started business in Jamaica<span style="font-weight: bold"> those were different times</span>...ppl a chat bout they want to be EQUAL with the men...Hahahaha...When did Women's Lib and equality start in the West? Innah di 60's or 70's?? back dem time deh, women had to stay on the low....<span style="font-weight: bold">be glad she got a man to marry</span> and be not only OBEDIENT BUT SUBSERVIENT TO HAR HUSBAND...<span style="font-weight: bold">as a result, women didn't join the workforce until later, because most women were STAY AT HOME MOMS...and women had to FIGHT IN AMERICA FOR THE RIGHT TO VOTE, AND TO BE REGARDED AS EQUAL...</span> we still see the disparity in the pay scales for women and men who do the same job.. ...anodda topic.

Those were the times then, whether in America, Africa, [worse] China or wherever...although there were African cultures where the women could play the dominant role...from A CULTURAL STANDPOINT...<span style="font-weight: bold">[MATRIARCHIAL SOCIETIES]</span>

As they say, <span style="font-style: italic">NEVER JUDGE A MAN UNTIL YOU WALK A MILE INNAH HIS MOCASSIN</span>

Nobaddie noh sure why ppl choose certain folks for their spouse[s] and nobaddie noh sure why Tropicana start these topics, so before oono pull the noose on either wans, try to UNDERSTAND WHERE THE OTHER GUY IS COMING FROM....try to understand, try to understand,. try to understand an stop drop words on others....Obama know seh there will be no peace on earth until WE UNDERSTAND AND CAN EXCHANGE MEANINGFUL DIALOGUE with each other....if not there will be more wars and rumours of war...as I am seeing in this yah chread. Nobody's comment here is more important than the others...wi juss a talk. *cho*

...an duh, mek mi chat mi chat as long as I am not abusing anyboddie...Puhleeze Massa and tenk yuh....

Holy Osiris./o\

**Tropicana** · 03-21-2009, 10:03 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

One thing I didn't point out in the previous post is that not all of these Balck people with Jewish, Lebanese, etc. surnames came about as a result of marriage. So, when I said inter-marriage, this was not entirely accurate.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> Question for Britisha, Dr. Dudd and anyone else who knows about this</span>

We've talked quite a bit about the poor Germans. I have a question about the Lebanese. I do get the fact that 1st generation maybe even 2nd generation, they may go back to the old country to find a wife and the whole arrange marriages and ting. I get that. Some of these families have been in Jamaica over 100 years. Surely they are not still going back to the old country. So, that would not account for the mass shunning of Black women by these affluent non-Black Jamaican men. Based on your observations, what do you think are some of the other factors?

**Tropicana** · 03-21-2009, 10:10 AM

Re: Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

Britisha you good. Our posts crossed. However, I would like to know how you managed to answer my question before I typed it?

Also re:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A mek some a oono a gwwan like seh ppl haffie quote oono verbatim and cannot seh wha dem waan seh innah fi dem owna words..TRADITION and CULTURE are NOT one and the same thing...

..mi seh the culture is what DICTATES how some of the Middle Eastern folks deal with selecting a spouse.....hiff smaddie helse seh ie so wha????....while </div></div>

Yeah people love to jump in and say I said the same thing x pages ago. Well maybe you onoo think you said the same thing but you didn't say it clearly and root it in experience the way Britisha did not even close.

Gone to read your answer. Then I am heading out but I will catch up with you later.

Why do NON-BLACK Jamaican men shun Black Jamaican Women?

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