Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

[Hopyoneson]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelli0n</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

where is Magic? </div></div>

Probably out busking trying to raise the money to go to a cyber cafe to log on here. </div></div>

What a preke magic catch stray...boss man why yu have fi hangle the man soh..


but



..sorry magic

[Magician]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

Beg unu a smalls nuh man.
Mi tiyad a di buly beef an suga wata.

Yes man regional airline piot life nuh pretty.

Before mi get a pilot work I used to load bags and deal with mad ppl at lost luggage. My last year of that I made a cool 21K (although that was working 70hour weeks)

My first year as a first officer for that same regional I made $16,900!! Got W2s to prove it.

Had a roomate in the apartment, and since it was Memphis, and the neighbourhood was a little dodgy the rent was cheap nuff fi survive.

After upgrading to captain, the pay doubled, but considering the responsibility, it wasn't nearly enough. Especially since now I qualified for a new tax bracket and Uncle Sam teef weh more money. On to of that, our contract expired and there were no pay raises. Since airlines come under railway labour law, you can't strike until a special process is complete.

Let me just say, that mi left that company 3 years ago, and they still negotiating their new contract and are not allowed to strike.


Few facts about pilot pay you might find interesting:
-we only get paid per flight hour. That means from the pushback from the gate, to parking at the gate. All time spent getting to the airport, checking the flight plan, checking the aircraft, passenger boarding, passenger deplaning, going thru customs, security, bus ride to the hotel, and time spend on a layover is FREE!

-that's why when you look at pilot's pay per hour, it may seem high, but it's not 40hrs/week. Basically if you take hourly pay and add 3 zeros, that's your annual pay before taxes.
You can see pilot pay at various airlines here

-In the US, 60% of all pilots 'commute' to work from another city. Since airlines have multiple bases and you can't just move house everytime the airlines gives you a new base (based on seniority), most people settle in one place, and commute.

-For me to get to work from South Florida to Detroit, it involved:

-:30min car ride
-:15min bus ride
-:x amount going thru security and waiting for the flight
-2:40 flight to Detroit (assuming there were open seats, otherwise it to plan B
-:15min bus that late at night ran every half an hour
-:15min remove snow from car2, and cuss bad wud
-:20min drive to crashpad (an apartment 10 pilots shared)
-sleep (night wasted away from home, some people chose to save the $140/mo and sleep at the airport somewhere)
-:20min drive back to the airport
-:15min bus ride
-1:30 prep time before the flight
-assuming we're on time, we push back
-I'm finnaly getting my $21/hour now!

[Magician]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

Flew with one first officer at the regional airline years back that lived in South Carolina. He just had a baby and the wife didn't work. To make ends meet, on a 4-day trip, she'd budget $18 for him.

-$6 went to pay for employee parking at Columbia, SC airport
-$4/day for all expenses!

He also had a loaf of bread and peanut butter to have for breakfast, and lunch. For dinner, he treated himself to McDonalds meal, but with no drink. He'd 'borrow' a drink from his previous flight.

Of course the week we flew together I'd buy him dinner. It was just to painful to see.
Other FOs had jobs at Home Depot on days off or a next work on the side.

One man &quot;lived&quot; in our operations area. It got to a point where he was such a fixture in the airport, that some of the mechanics played a joke on him, and made a doghouse our cardboard and set it next to the entrance to our crew room. With his name on top of the hole!

Those days were sort of fun as a yute, and we enjoyed flying airplanes and would have done if for free (#1 reason why airlines get away with it, there's plenty of guys that just use it as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Some die in the process thou )

I can't imagine working for one of those airlines again. And even the major airlines like Delta and United are cutting away at the 'package' and making the yutes in the regionals fighting for a dream job that is no longer so nice.

That's why mi lef Merca and go somewhere mi can still enjoy coming to work.

[britisha]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelli0n</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok...from my sources regional pilots start out with the lowest pay scale which is what Britisha is talking about...then after a few years they move up to the 20's..which is still not all that great...the good thing is that the pay moves up with seniority...


A captain with 18 years seniority makes about $182K..

</div></div>

Thanks Skelly, I tend to believe this...for it coincides with what they said on the Nat'l evening news..

If someone could do a search and print the scales it would be helpful.

[britisha]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously, a job of that magnitude responsibility should carry a salary that at least allows them to be able to rest, and not run around doing odd jobs to put food on the table...di free perks whey dem get doesn't compensate, doesn't put money in the bank...

No wonder some ppl no fly at all at all. </div></div> If you ever hear what soem of the emergency room physicians get abd the number of hours they have to do. And their mistakes candirectly cost lives... the country is in a terible state. I know some E/R docs and they treat it like they are carpenters.
i hear some people on here complain that Ilack feeling,but these guys are like stickes,and they lumberjacks when not on duty. </div></div>

Oddly enuff Doc, I could use this as a lead off although it doesn't exactly relate to the discussion...I am snipping this from Magic's link..[and btw, I know what you are talking about...LASS NITE, we were just talking about a co-worker that would pull three...<span style="font-weight: bold">24 hours</span>... shifts on a very many occasion...well, mek a long torie shaawt...she had a stroke, and now cannot help herself]

From the link:<span style="color: #3333FF">

We work in a challenging environment that requires many of us to be awake during the exact hours when we biologically need to sleep. In addition, we are often on duty for long periods of time while dealing with circadian shifts and then try to sleep while the rest of the world is awake. Have you just gotten used to feeling tired? Or, are you fatigued?

There is a difference between being tired and being fatigued.

Fatigue is a debilitating condition that affects your ability to process complex thoughts. When you are fatigued you have passed slow thinking and gone directly to &quot;stupid.&quot; The inherent danger of fatigue is that your body may feel OK, but your mind is not able to perform at the same level. So how do you know if you are fatigued if you can’t think clearly?</span>

I am referencing this, because FATIGUE PLAYED AN IMPORTANT role in the downing of that plane, combined with <span style="font-weight: bold">icy conditions</span>, and cockpit IRRELEVANT CHATTER...

Now, Doc...you say that you are in Boston, and I am asking you if the Bell Commission's ruling affects doctors in training there..I won't say attendings because they seldom work over 16 hour unless it is in surgery...like those those who were featured in the face transplant report recently..


I snipped this from another site:

<span style="color: #330099"> PURPOSE OF REVIEW: This review addresses the way in which sleep physiology influences the medical profession and health care delivery. RECENT FINDINGS: The training process for the medical professional has undergone dramatic changes over the past century. In recent times, however, the complexity and level of care delivered has out-stripped a trainee's ability to forego sleep and is compromising both physician and patient safety and thereby threatens the foundation of the profession. Recently, significant strides have been made in our understanding of sleep loss and consequences to physicians-in-training. Nevertheless, the implementation of changes fostered by such findings faces numerous conceptual and practical obstacles. This review updates the reader on recent evidence for changing the way medical professionals are trained, and opines on how solutions generated from such research should be embraced. Additionally, the deficiencies in our current understanding of sleep and medical training are identified so that future research can be undertaken in such areas. SUMMARY: Acknowledging the defects in our current system of training physicians and enacting further changes is sorely needed to improve patient safety and the well-being of physicians-</span><span style="font-weight: bold">

So again, SLEEP DEPRIVATION CAN HAVE DISASTROUS RESULTS IN SOME INSTANCES, EQUAL TO, OR WORSE THAN DRIVING WITH AN ILLEGAL BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVEL...</span>

[britisha]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't imagine working for one of those airlines again. And even the major airlines like Delta and United are cutting away at the 'package' and making the yutes in the regionals fighting for a dream job that is no longer so nice.

That's why mi lef Merca and go somewhere mi can still enjoy coming to work.</div></div>

Thanks for your comments and definitely the links...they throw much light on the frightening situation.

If I read the pay scales rightly, after length of service, pilots seem to fare relatively well...no overhead, no staff to pay and no high malpractice insurance as doctors do etc..

However, the FATIGUE element that seem to feature profoundly here, to ME is even worse than the low pay...for when we can protest and write our Senators and Congress people for better pay for these people, when they are fatigued, it is totally in the hands of the pilots, and only their hands...<span style="font-weight: bold">TO FLY OR NOT TO FLY</span>...that becomes the question...

[britisha]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

I think that I'd mentioned here eons ago bout di documentary about the effects THAT FATIGUE can have on air disasters...they interviewed two pilots who had a near miss in the Canary Islands [which methinks they had said was<span style="font-weight: bold"> one of the worst airports THEN</span>.. for morning landing, due to sun glare] Magic can throw some light [no pun intended] on this if he chooses, whedda is soh or nat..]

anihoo the captain and co-pilot do that &quot;run&quot; repeatedly so they knew the course like the palm of their hands...well, on this particular flight they made a bargain between themselves.


One fly the plane while the other one ketchup ...catch up on his zzzzz's...his copilot would wake him up at a certain time, and then he would catch up on his sleep before they land...

Well, {a long time now mi did watch ie] well, the other one woke up his copilot who should now be &quot;rested&quot; to &quot;man&quot; the cockpit, while he went to catch up on his sleep...mek a long torie shaawt...while sleeping,it was as if something woke him up...when he realised they were not too far off from the landing strip ...<span style="font-weight: bold">looks as if the plane was on &quot;auto&quot;..</span>.and lo and behold, his partner WAS FASST SLEEP...must be the sun glare that woke him...so you can just imagine...fortunately to say, he managed to land the plane by himself..**chukkle** guess he had NO time to wake his partner or even PRAY as Sully did at New Yaawk....

<span style="font-weight: bold">the point is, it is disgraceful that lack of decent wages, and conditions that promote fatigue among cockpit personnel put the lives of the traveling public...and the crew...in serious danger...we need to start drafting some letters and sending them off to our politicians</span>


THE LIFE YOU SAVE MIGHT BE YOUR OWN !!!

<span style="font-style: italic">**WONDERING TUH MISELF, IF COCKPIT PERSONNELL WORRY BOUT DEM LIFE HANDAH DEM DEH CONDITIONS, OR MONEY TEK THE PRIORITY.. SIGH**</span>

Wondering if Magic knows of any such happenings whey one go sleep and di odda wan a watch..

[Magician]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

Tenerife was the worst accident in history. Two B747s crashed into each other on the ground in fog. As far as I can remember the main cause was air traffic controllers bad english and non-standard phraseology. Don't remember fatigue being an issue.


However fatigue is an issue almost on a daily basis. I did a 14hour 24minute flight that landed 8 hours ago. I jus did drive a road and while driving mi realise seh mi shouldn't be driving caw mi mash up fi true. But mi affi tek care a business can mi going Yaad tonight so affi struggle fi stay up.

Fortunately this airline we have a policy where pilots can take controlled rest. Meanining one pilots can sleep for 40min, and the cabin crew has to check on the other pilot every 20min fi mek sure seh im criss.

There was no such thing in the US, so basically it still happened, but in an illegal and uncontrolled way. Which is more dangerous.

I find that the FAA's duty time rules are much more dangerous than other countries. And the only thing that can change that is a string of accidents that can be linked to these bad regualtions. Unfortunately, there's always pilots doing something stupid that takes precedence, and the fatigue issue it being overlooked.

[britisha]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix_de_PM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tenerife was the worst accident in history. Two B747s crashed into each other on the ground in fog. As far as I can remember the main cause was air traffic controllers bad english and non-standard phraseology. Don't remember fatigue being an issue.
<span style="font-weight: bold">

However fatigue is an issue almost on a daily basis. I did a 14hour 24minute flight that landed 8 hours ago. I jus did drive a road and while driving mi realise seh mi shouldn't be driving caw mi mash up fi true. But mi affi tek care a business can mi going Yaad tonight so affi struggle fi stay up. </span>

Fortunately this airline we have a policy where pilots can take controlled rest. Meanining one pilots can sleep for 40min, and the cabin crew has to check on the other pilot every 20min fi mek sure seh im criss.

There was no such thing in the US, so basically it still happened, but in an illegal and uncontrolled way. Which is more dangerous.

I find that the FAA's duty time rules are much more dangerous than other countries. And the only thing that can change that is a string of accidents that can be linked to these bad regualtions. Unfortunately, there's always pilots doing something stupid that takes precedence, and the fatigue issue it being overlooked. </div></div>

Dyumm, a 14 hour flight...Massie!!

Yuh mussie well beat..

I didn't know that that that was allowed; for one to pilot for so long? For guess wha? If you di passenger pan dem long run can feel so tired and bad after such a flight, consider the crew...man oh man!!

Jet lag and all dat, horrible...how much more for the crew...from the fatigue piece I snipped, and personal experience wid long howahs, [it looks as if] the human body can never adjust to that, no matter how many times one does it...thanks for the insight..

[Magician]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

The flight itself is not that bad. There's 4 of us, and we get a 6:30 break in the crew rest compartment below deck. There are 8 bunks for the flight attendents in one room and 2 for the pilots in the other.

The problem is in the timing of the flights. Jetlag plus the funny timing of the flights is what kills you. But I actually find the shorter 9 hours flights with only two pilots more tiring than a 11hour flight with 3 pilots or a 15 hours flight with 4 pilots.

[britisha]

Re: Mi did think pilots and co-pilots a mek money

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix_de_PM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The flight itself is not that bad. There's 4 of us, and we get a 6:30 break in the crew rest compartment below deck. There are 8 bunks for the flight attendents in one room and 2 for the pilots in the other.

The problem is in the timing of the flights. Jetlag plus the funny timing of the flights is what kills you. But I actually find the shorter 9 hours flights with only two pilots more tiring than a 11hour flight with 3 pilots or a 15 hours flight with 4 pilots.
</div></div>

Glad to hear that, that allays some of my fears...thanks.

Pan di shaawt run doah, mi agguh laywait di/fimmi flight pilot and ask him hommuch sleep him did get before him agguh pan dissyah flight...