Gunmen attack policeman and family

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

I can see that you believe that criminals are either idiots,suicidal, or don't care about their good health. that is is far from the truth.
To prove that criminals are none of these.

They don't Rob police stations that have lots of what they need. I wonder why?

they don't walk in front of passing vehicles.

i wonder why, and they escape when they come under overwhelming resistance.

i wonder why people who react to all these instances, in this manner should be expected to go out and try to take on people when they are sure that it is a greater chance of meeting these sort of opposition?
i can see you have not done too much in the way of rational analysis.
human being are emotional beings, but they tend to be very rational when faced with the probability of being injured and possibly killed.
i don;t know if you realize this, but if the criminals did not behave in line with this statement,they would have been easily eliminated. they would not be as successful as they are ateven nit getting injuried.
That is because they realize that injury may result in death, if the turn up at a hospital for treatment.
they are not as dumb as you are making them out ot be. they know whento putv up the gun. and that is when they are less likely to be successful at doing what they are doing.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

Except for the part where you say that I believe criminals to be idiots, suicidal, etc, (I actually don't think they are; did you see the word "calculation" that I used), you are actually agreeing with my point without realizing it.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except for the part where you say that I believe criminals to be idiots, suicidal, etc, (I actually don't think they are; did you see the word &quot;calculation&quot; that I used), you are actually agreeing with my point without realizing it. </div></div> if you agre that gunmen are les likely to carry out theor criminal ways if they realize that the probabillity that they will be killed is so high that it does not even worth it, then iam agreeing with you.
Otherwise, no, I am not.
...though it may seem so.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Of course, with more people being armed, the criminal may not know who is armed and who isn't, but this won't be enough to deter him - again, we're talking about calculation.....</div></div>

Humano you are asking the right questions, making the right permutations, drawing the right conclusions but avoid the right answer.
Nothing will stop a man/ooman on a mission but the less dedicated killer will make a choice.
Even such an animal as you have identified will have less chance of success simply because the odds will be greater.
This exactly the reason why you want a well-armed, well-trained citizenry. In Jamaica the cost of crime is too cheap to the perpetrator, what you need to do is to increase the cost of crime.
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]more well trained gun owners[*]more security devices[*]a less corrupt police force[*]a less corrupt political system[*]a more educated population[/list]
These are all the pieces that need to come together.

As to whether or not the shotta will know who is armed, yes he or she will know exactly who is armed, the ordinary man and ooman in the street...that is who, making it more risky for him/her to do foolish things.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except for the part where you say that I believe criminals to be idiots, suicidal, etc, (I actually don't think they are; did you see the word &quot;calculation&quot; that I used), you are actually agreeing with my point without realizing it. </div></div> if you agre that gunmen are les likely to carry out theor criminal ways if they realize that the probabillity that they will be killed is so high that it does not even worth it, then iam agreeing with you.
Otherwise, no, I am not.
...though it may seem so. </div></div>

You won't concede the obvious. It is convenient for you to ignore the cases where armed citizens - <span style="font-weight: bold">who are known to be armed, and presumably trained in the use of firearms</span> - are attacked. Are you saying that the criminals did not factor in the possibility that they may be killed? Or are you saying that they are insane or stupid? And if those around the target are <span style="font-weight: bold">equally armed</span>, and the criminals are <span style="font-weight: bold">intent</span> on going after that <span style="font-weight: bold">armed</span> target, they will simply seek to do it without being detected. Again, it's about calculation: if you think you can do it and succeed, you try; if you think you can't succeed, you don't. And, I put it to you, the reports in those cases tell me that the criminals made the calculation that they could succeed. They tried; sometimes they succeeded, sometimes they didn't.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In Jamaica the cost of crime is too cheap to the perpetrator, what you need to do is to increase the cost of crime.
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]more well trained gun owners[*]more security devices[*]a less corrupt police force[*]a less corrupt political system[*]a more educated population[/list]
These are all the pieces that need to come together.
</div></div>

I concur here. I would add dealing with the socio-economic factors that contribute to criminality.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

my feelings in all of this is the joe and jane Jamaica is not going to want to see his or her neighbour armed, but I think even if public opinion is not on the side of those of us who would advocate this, the GOJ should mandate that all able Jamaicans received instructions in the use and care of firearms.

This would solve one problem, the fear and the mis-overstanding about the use and care of firearms.
It would also advance the ball while we wait on the judge to make a ruling, so that if the answer is yeah then we would have had an arm up already.

FD I don't own a firearm, even though for as long as I have known myself I have been fascinated by firearms.
My interests is waning now but I know that once you overstand the destructive capabilities of a firearm employed badly you will have a healthier respect for life and the pursuit of liberty.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

I have long ago have to concede the obvious.
It was the basis of my recognition that arming a few people will not reduce gun crimes. Since criminals can easily attack them as single victims out there and kill them to get their weapons. as a matter of fact I have stated that it is more dangerous to the armed, because they are easily robbed when they are isolated.
That is the same reason why the army does not send single armed soldiers out on the battle field.
They have to be in great enough numbers that unless the enemy is sure they can ovdrcomethem, they will simply withdraw, or surrender.

That is the logic used in recognizing that until there is a great enough number of armed citizens the criminals will simply attack armed citizens an disarm them, simply because they acabn out number them.
What you don't realize this i learn from growing up in Jamaican neighborhoods where the majority were legally armed. If one shot is fired, the neighbors will quietly investigate and ready to defend the other neighbors.
That is how it went when i was a child growing up. And moe thing our parents also taught us
how dangerous gusnare and how to use them safely.
Now if every time a criminal attacked an armed citizen they should use their signals to alert the neighbors (that is what use to happen0, they would take up position and that no good son of a fool, will not get away without missing some essential parts.
That is how it use to go.
but only in the neighborhoods that were allowed to
protect themselves. that is the thing that work in the past.
that is the thing that work in other peaceful places,and that is the thing that will work now. in this situation.
you domn't have to be convinced, because you are not the ones making the laws.
but i am prepared to convince those who need to change the laws, for the survival of the country.some . You on the other hand

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my feelings in all of this is the joe and jane Jamaica is not going to want to see his or her neighbour armed, but I think even if public opinion is not on the side of those of us who would advocate this, the GOJ should mandate that all able Jamaicans received instructions in the use and care of firearms.

This would solve one problem, the fear and the mis-overstanding about the use and care of firearms.
It would also advance the ball while we wait on the judge to make a ruling, so that if the answer is yeah then we would have had an arm up already.

FD I don't own a firearm, even though for as long as I have known myself I have been fascinated by firearms.
My interests is waning now but I know that once you overstand the destructive capabilities of a firearm employed badly you will have a healthier respect for life and the pursuit of liberty. </div></div>
I really din't care if they don't want to see their neighbors armed.

as long as they are armed.
we will not get it done by them wanting each other armed, but we certainly will get it done by each one want to arm themselves.
Everybody that is against others being armed is for arming themselves.
well that good enough for me as long as they have no power to stop those they don't wat to see armed.
That is what has brought us to this point.
the asymmetric arming of the population.
the criminal know who is likely to be armed and when they are most vulnerable to be robbed,
of weapons.
And that is the weak link that broke the whole bridge.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I concur here. I would add dealing with the socio-economic factors that contribute to criminality. </div></div>

I think even fixing the economy without going along with my other suggestions will reduce crimes of want and opportunity.
Recently the Commissioner reported that homicides were down slightly but assaults, rapes, robberies and breakings where up significantly. Of course he attempted to spin the facts by saying it was greater reporting that skewered the response, using the same line that the last three failures as Commissioners have employed.

The Journalists at the un-press conference refused to press him on the issue and ask him why would better reporting cause Homicides to fall but other all other categories to go up?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

You can'
t fix theeconomy without fixing that first. It would be like putting lots of new fangled furniture ina building without putting on secured doors and roof first. I really don't care if murder is marginally down. zUnles it return to acceptable level as it was, we stil need to enforce these rules.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can'
t fix theeconomy without fixing that first. </div></div>
What is <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">that</span>?

You mean arming the population?
I think it is imperative that you fix the economy either way. I would put economy over arms if a choice were offered.
One of the reason why the citizens in Jamaica need to have access to their own personal protection is because of the inept, corrupt in-security forces, coupled with the expensive and treacle slow Justice System.

As one commentator observed, we have basically reached the point where we cannot afford a police force, an education system, a health system, etc. Fixing the economy is absolutely necessary to solve all or most of our problems and that should be priority #1.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can'
t fix theeconomy without fixing that first. </div></div>
What is <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">that</span>?

You mean arming the population?
I think it is imperative that you fix the economy either way. I would put economy over arms if a choice were offered.
One of the reason why the citizens in Jamaica need to have access to their own personal protection is because of the inept, corrupt in-security forces, coupled with the expensive and treacle slow Justice System.

As one commentator observed, we have basically reached the point where we cannot afford a police force, an education system, a health system, etc. Fixing the economy is absolutely necessary to solve all or most of our problems and that should be priority #1.
</div></div>Wellsince I have to deak with the mecahnics of fixingthe economy. I say instituting that change is the first step towards fixing the economy.
One reason is that much of Jamaica is too dangsderous to operate a busines today. See Port Antonio, since last week the shoot 2 business people ,killing one.

If it keep going on like this,many business people will pack up and leave like during the manley years.
The arresting of the slide start with security.

As to what that commentator is saying I hav ebeen sayingthat a long time now. Jamaica cannot afford the services required for it's existence. ther is no other choice.
The country can't afford an increase if the cost of security.
and any new policy that does not involve a drastic change in the way fire arms licenses are issued, they will not survive the slixde to failed state.
Irrespective of how much investment is poured into developing the economy.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Gunmen attack policeman and family

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As to what that commentator is saying I hav ebeen sayingthat a long time now. Jamaica cannot afford the services required for it's existence. </div></div>

Mathematically and based on the service delivery to the citizens of Jamaica, he is spot on.