Offshot of the "Patois" thread

**uswe** · 07-09-2009, 07:44 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

When you refer to speaking "american" do you mean grammar, syntax etc? </div></div>

Everything Uswe, everything mi dear. . </div></div>

Britisha, have you heard of a series by HBO called the "Wire"? it was originally only shown on cable in the UK where it developed such a cult following and received critical acclaim. The DVD box set was a best seller and now the BBC are now showing the whole series. Many critics, whilst hailing the programmes realism and grittiness, said they found it hard to decipher what many of the characters were saying.

**britisha** · 07-09-2009, 08:17 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Britisha, have you heard of a series by HBO called the "Wire"? it was originally only shown on cable in the UK where it developed such a cult following and received critical acclaim. The DVD box set was a best seller and now the BBC are now showing the whole series. Many critics, whilst hailing the programmes realism and grittiness, said they found it hard to decipher what many of the characters were saying.
</div></div>

No Uswe I have not.

Did they have the visuals like Benny Hill? If so, it must've been hilarious.

can one get those DVD's to buy?

Anihoo, some of these American shows might fall into the same category for "moi," since many of them I honestly believe could give the "Wire" a run for it's money; and beat it too.

**uswe** · 07-09-2009, 09:58 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

The "Wire" is a gritty inner city drama, nothing like Benny Hill is was written by David Simon,
a former police reporter for the Baltimore Sun he also wrote "Homicide: Life on the Street".

I think some of the critics had problems understanding the "street talk"

Don't know if Benny Hill is available to buy on DVD, maybe Amazon may have them.
I know you'd never see it on TV over here again, that sort of programme fell out of favour many years ago.
An old man running after semi naked women, to politically incorrect for these times

**britisha** · 07-09-2009, 12:50 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "Wire" is a gritty inner city drama, nothing like Benny Hill is was written by David Simon,
a former police reporter for the Baltimore Sun he also wrote "Homicide: Life on the Street".

I think some of the critics had problems understanding the "street talk"

Don't know if Benny Hill is available to buy on DVD, maybe Amazon may have them.
I know you'd never see it on TV over here again, that sort of programme fell out of favour many years ago.
An old man running after semi naked women, to politically incorrect for these times

</div></div> <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0B-QE_g3JPU"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0B-QE_g3JPU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Is this what you are referring to Uswe?

Apparently it was made for HBO, which requires a subscription before it can be accessed on TV. I don't think the FCC would allow such a show on prime time tv with children being able to to view it...

Surprisingly enough, I could understand most of what they were saying, curse words and all.. one needs to be street smart to survive in the urban jungle/hood. I can see why some Brits would have problem following the jargon.

<span style="font-style: italic">I am learning so much from you Uswe..</span> ::

I followed the link to <span style="font-weight: bold">Bodie's Final Moments</span>...really ruff and gritty fi chroo. I thought it was too graphic to post the link here...

<span style="font-style: italic">Now as we all know, language is born out of culture and even necessity to survive...this also includes the slang and other deviation from the standard language usage...'ere kratching mi 'ead, and wondering wha prompted 'Mericans to deviate from standard English in the first place.</span>

**uswe** · 07-09-2009, 01:48 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

Thats the one B, yes it was made for and shown only on HBO. The BBC show week nights at 23:20

The different dialects/accents within the English language is so vast.
There are regions of the UK where even I have a problem understanding what
they're saying sometimes, they may as well be speaking a foreign language

<span style="font-style: italic">Maybe one of the reasons for the deviation from the English language (which is happening in all English speaking countries) is partly down to laziness and bad habits? </span>

**britisha** · 07-09-2009, 08:43 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Thats the one B, yes it was made for and shown only on HBO. The BBC show week nights at 23:20

The different dialects/accents within the English language is so vast.
There are regions of the UK where even I have a problem understanding what
they're saying sometimes, they may as well be speaking a foreign language

<span style="font-style: italic">Maybe one of the reasons for the deviation from the English language (which is happening in all English speaking countries) is partly down to laziness and bad habits? </span>

</div></div>
God bless the www; and here I was imagining it was some white subculture group that the 'Wire" was potraying; only to come to see that it is right in America's urban community.

Funny that you should say that...when I was in Jamaica and worked for govt...my position included that I "interfaced" with all levels of Jamaican society...the "joke" is if I can call it that, as much as I was fluent in "patois," I needed a translator at times when dealing with people from places like "Sint Elizabeth"...no kidding.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Maybe one of the reasons for the deviation from the English language (which is happening in all English speaking countries) is partly down to laziness and bad habits? </span>

...as well as borne out of need to survive as I mentioned earlier..

I saw this strange occurrence the other day with a Spanish client...the fluent employee in Spanish, had to request another person from the same country to translate what "they" were saying..sometimes <span style="font-style: italic">idiomatic expressions</span> can get and have gotten in the way.

**RcOmK** · 07-09-2009, 11:54 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
.sometimes <span style="font-style: italic">idiomatic expressions</span> can get and have gotten in the way.

</div></div>

Yes, Very true. And sometimes idiomatic phrases just can't be translated lol it's pretty interesting.

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-10-2009, 12:05 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
.sometimes <span style="font-style: italic">idiomatic expressions</span> can get and have gotten in the way.

</div></div>

Yes, Very true. And sometimes idiomatic phrases just can't be translated lol it's pretty interesting. </div></div> Who say idiomatic expresions cannot be translated? That is why native speakers are necessary for proper translation. Since they willl be aware of te idiums and apply as is necessary. this uisi done on a daily basis inirganizations like the UN,and international trade meetings.

**RcOmK** · 07-10-2009, 12:11 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-style: italic">Maybe one of the reasons for the deviation from the English language (which is happening in all English speaking countries) is partly down to laziness and bad habits? </span>

</div></div>

Deviation? or <span style="color: #006600">EVOLUTION</span>? I don't think it's laziness... take the U.S. southern accent vs. an Australian one; neither of them seem lazy, they're just very different and evolved in different ways.

Same goes for Quebecois French and European French; neither, by any means, are lazy; they're just a little different (with a bit of different pronunciation) and evolved in different ways.

In fact, the last time I was in Quebec i was standing in line in a restaurant, with a friend of mine, and I overheard the Quebecois owner talking to this French woman. He was commenting on her Parisian accent and they were conversing just fine. However, if you ask some French people, they'll say that Quebecois is completely different and they rather just speak English to them ... But I speak European French and I conversed just fine with Les Quebecois... I guess it just all depends on ones point of view of what's "completely different".

**RcOmK** · 07-10-2009, 12:30 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
.sometimes <span style="font-style: italic">idiomatic expressions</span> can get and have gotten in the way.

</div></div>

Yes, Very true. And sometimes idiomatic phrases just can't be translated lol it's pretty interesting. </div></div> Who say idiomatic expresions cannot be translated? That is why native speakers are necessary for proper translation. Since they willl be aware of te idiums and apply as is necessary. this uisi done on a daily basis inirganizations like the UN,and international trade meetings. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">There, in fact, are idiomatic phrases/words that <span style="text-decoration: underline">cannot be completely translated</span> into English.</span> I NEVER said all idiomatic phrases cannot be translate; just some.

<span style="color: #006600">EX: In FRENCH: </span><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">coup d'état</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000099">"coup"</span></span> <span style="color: #006600">cannot be <span style="text-decoration: underline">completely</span> translated into English. It <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">could</span></span> be given the translation of <span style="font-weight: bold">"takeover"</span> or <span style="font-weight: bold">"overthrowing"</span>, but those <span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">are not</span></span> the <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">TRUE</span></span> translations because <span style="font-weight: bold">"to takeover" </span>in French is</span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000099">"s'emparer"</span></span> <span style="color: #006600">and "to overthrow" in French is </span><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">"renverser"</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #660000">NOT</span></span> <span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">"coup"</span></span>.
<span style="color: #006600">
Another example can be seen in <span style="color: #993300">JAMAICAN CREOLE</span>:

How does one translate that <span style="color: #993300"><span style="font-weight: bold">"no"(nuh)</span></span> word that Jamaicans put at the end of certain sentences?

Ex: Gimi mi sitn dem <span style="color: #993300"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">no (nuh)</span></span></span>! </span>

just can't... or one could give it some watered down translation that isn't exactly what it is.

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-10-2009, 12:54 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Originally posted by britisha

.sometimes <span style="font-style: italic">idiomatic expressions</span> can get and have gotten in the way.

</div></div>

Yes, Very true. And sometimes idiomatic phrases just can't be translated lol it's pretty interesting. </div></div> Who say idiomatic expresions cannot be translated? That is why native speakers are necessary for proper translation. Since they willl be aware of te idiums and apply as is necessary. this uisi done on a daily basis inirganizations like the UN,and international trade meetings. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">There, in fact, are idiomatic phrases/words that <span style="text-decoration: underline">cannot be completely translated</span> into English.</span> I NEVER said all idiomatic phrases cannot be translate; just some.

<span style="color: #006600">EX: In FRENCH: </span><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">coup d'état</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000099">"coup"</span></span> <span style="color: #006600">cannot be <span style="text-decoration: underline">completely</span> translated into English. It <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">could</span></span> be given the translation of <span style="font-weight: bold">"takeover"</span> or <span style="font-weight: bold">"overthrowing"</span>, but those <span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">are not</span></span> the <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">TRUE</span></span> translations because <span style="font-weight: bold">"to takeover" </span>in French is</span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000099">"s'emparer"</span></span> <span style="color: #006600">and "to overthrow" in French is </span><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">"renverser"</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #660000">NOT</span></span> <span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">"coup"</span></span>.
<span style="color: #006600">
Another example can be seen in <span style="color: #993300">JAMAICAN CREOLE</span>:

How does one translate that <span style="color: #993300"><span style="font-weight: bold">"no"(nuh)</span></span> word that Jamaicans put at the end of certain sentences?

Ex: Gimi mi sitn dem <span style="color: #993300"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">no (nuh)</span></span></span>! </span>

just can't... or one could give it some watered down translation that isn't exactly what it is.

Idiomatic phrases can always be properly translated betwen languages as lkong as ther are similar activites descruibed. the difference is that the apporpriate idiomatic translation is usuallyfar removed from the literal meanings of thewords. That iswhy they are consdered idiums. as a mater of fact idiums alternative use of words or phrases, beyond their literal meanings.

**RcOmK** · 07-10-2009, 01:03 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]
Idiomatic phrases can always be <span style="color: #000099">properly</span> translated betwen languages as lkong as ther are similar activites descruibed. the difference is that the apporpriate idiomatic translation is usuallyfar removed from the literal meanings of thewords. That iswhy they are consdered idiums. as a mater of fact idiums alternative use of words or phrases, beyond their literal meanings. </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">
"Properly"</span>. Meaning that an <span style="color: #000099">acceptable</span> translation can be given; one that makes sense. But is it the <span style="color: #006600"><span style="font-size: 14pt">TRUE</span></span> translation? Not necessarily. Just an <span style="color: #000099">acceptable</span> one.

and for some, one really can't explain them... I've seen this before where ppl just shrug and give up on trying to explain it.

Plus in situations like translating for the UN, the representatives would most likely refrain from idiomatic expressions... idiomatic expressions are much more casual; a UN meeting is not.

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-10-2009, 01:07 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Idiomatic phrases can always be <span style="color: #000099">properly</span> translated between languages as long as there are similar activities described. the difference is that the appropriate idiomatic translation is usually far removed from the literal meanings of the words. That is why they are considered idioms. as a mater of fact idioms alternative use of words or phrases, beyond their literal meanings. </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">
"Properly"</span>. Meaning that an <span style="color: #000099">acceptable</span> translation can be given. But is it the <span style="color: #006600"><span style="font-size: 14pt">TRUE</span></span> translation? Not necessarily. Just an acceptable one. </div></div>It is th etrue translation. Since wordsare simply a mediumto communicate anaction. th ediiumatic translation af that action will differ dramnatically from the literal translation, but the action can always be accurately translated.

**RcOmK** · 07-10-2009, 01:53 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]It is th etrue translation. Since wordsare simply a mediumto communicate anaction. th ediiumatic translation af that action will differ dramnatically from the literal translation, but the action can always be accurately translated. </div></div>

There ARE some idioms that cannot be translated into English. other examples, other than the ones i previously listed, are:
<span style="color: #000099">
Fond de l'air est frais</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">French</span> - which <span style="text-decoration: underline">literally</span> means <span style="font-weight: bold">"the bottom of the air/wind is cold"</span>
WHAT WOULD BE THE ENGLISH EQUIVALENT OF THIS?

<span style="color: #993300">"Gezellig"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">Dutch</span> - A Dutch person mentioned the word on a website i found. They said that they could NOT find a translation into English. They said that the closest definition they found was "cozy", but he/she said that does NOT do it service because <span style="color: #993300">"Gezellig"</span> means much more than that.

<span style="color: #660000">"Lagom" </span>from <span style="font-weight: bold">Swedish</span>. The Swedes say it just cannot be translated. They mention it in this forum:Community of Sweden

my point is that there are several phrases that just get <span style="color: #006600">lost in translation</span>, and it becomes necessary to change the TRUE translation around so that it is acceptable; so it makes sense. But it still is <span style="color: #660000">NOT</span> the <span style="color: #006600">TRUE</span> translation. And there are even cases where one just can't translate it.

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-10-2009, 02:15 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is the true translation. Since words are simply a medium to communicate an action, the idiomatic translation af that action will differ dramnatically from the literal translation, but the action can always be accurately translated, by applying th eappropriate idiomatic meanings. </div></div>

There ARE some idioms that cannot be translated into English. other examples, other than the ones i previously listed, are:
<span style="color: #000099">
Fond de l'air est frais</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">French</span> - which <span style="text-decoration: underline">literally</span> means <span style="font-weight: bold">"the bottom of the air/wind is cold"</span>
WHAT WOULD BE THE ENGLISH EQUIVALENT OF THIS?

<span style="color: #993300">"Gezellig"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">Dutch</span> - A Dutch person mentioned the word on a website i found. They said that they could NOT find a translation into English. They said that the closest definition they found was "cozy", but he/she said that does NOT do it service because <span style="color: #993300">"Gezellig"</span> means much more than that.
<span style="color: #660000">"Lagom" </span>from <span style="font-weight: bold">Swedish</span>. The Swedes say it just cannot be translated. They mention it in this forum:Community of Sweden

my point is that there are several phrases that just get <span style="color: #006600">lost in translation</span>, and it becomes necessary to change the TRUE translation around so that it is acceptable; so it makes sense. But it still is <span style="color: #660000">NOT</span> the <span style="color: #006600">TRUE</span> translation. And there are even cases where one just can't translate it.

</div></div> Ther is such a thing as an idiomatic dictionary for serious linguistic reaseachers. That is thelevel i would have attempted it from.That is how I translate the foreign languages that i try to understand. I understand.You hav etio get the idiomatic dictionary of not just the culture, but of the period too. That is howe the US State Department teaches languages.

Offshot of the "Patois" thread

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