Offshot of the "Patois" thread

**britisha** · 07-10-2009, 02:48 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yes, Very true. And sometimes idiomatic phrases just can't be translated lol it's pretty interesting. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">There, in fact, are idiomatic phrases/words that <span style="text-decoration: underline">cannot be completely translated</span> into English.</span> I NEVER said all idiomatic phrases cannot be translate; just some.

<span style="color: #006600">EX: In FRENCH: </span><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">coup d'état</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000099">"coup"</span></span> <span style="color: #006600">cannot be <span style="text-decoration: underline">completely</span> translated into English. It <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">could</span></span> be given the translation of <span style="font-weight: bold">"takeover"</span> or <span style="font-weight: bold">"overthrowing"</span>, but those <span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">are not</span></span> the <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">TRUE</span></span> translations because <span style="font-weight: bold">"to takeover" </span>in French is</span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000099">"s'emparer"</span></span> <span style="color: #006600">and "to overthrow" in French is </span><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">"renverser"</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #660000">NOT</span></span> <span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">"coup"</span></span>.
<span style="color: #006600">
Another example can be seen in <span style="color: #993300">JAMAICAN CREOLE</span>:

How does one translate that <span style="color: #993300"><span style="font-weight: bold">"no"(nuh)</span></span> word that Jamaicans put at the end of certain sentences?

Ex: Gimi mi sitn dem <span style="color: #993300"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">no (nuh)</span></span></span>! </span>

just can't... or one could give it some watered down translation that isn't exactly what it is. </div></div>

Very interesting...posted a response with an example in "Jamaican Creyol" and it took wings and flew...will have to do it later.

Are you a linguist IronMan?

**britisha** · 07-10-2009, 02:55 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-style: italic">Maybe one of the reasons for the deviation from the English language (which is happening in all English speaking countries) is partly down to laziness and bad habits? </span>
</div></div>

Deviation? or <span style="color: #006600">EVOLUTION</span>? I don't think it's laziness... take the U.S. southern accent vs. an Australian one; neither of them seem lazy, they're just very different and evolved in different ways.

Same goes for Quebecois French and European French; neither, by any means, are lazy; they're just a little different (with a bit of different pronunciation) and evolved in different ways.

In fact, the last time I was in Quebec i was standing in line in a restaurant, with a friend of mine, and I overheard the Quebecois owner talking to this French woman. He was commenting on her Parisian accent and they were conversing just fine. However, if you ask some French people, they'll say that Quebecois is completely different and they rather just speak English to them ... But I speak European French and I conversed just fine with Les Quebecois... I guess it just all depends on ones point of view of what's "completely different". </div></div>

You chose an excellent example...there are English people who cannot understand some Americans either and vice versa.

After reading your <span style="font-weight: bold">very informative</span> thread I decided to look at Creol spoken in French quarters Louisiana, US and could see where there were some differences from Haitian Creole..[spelling]..don't know about the pronunciation, which I am betting might be different as well.

**Magician** · 07-10-2009, 06:35 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

I don't speak French, but from the sound of it Hatian Creole sounds simpler to me than French. French people make sounds with their mouth that's not natural to me, and the Hatians speak French like it was English.

Australians and New Zealanders (sorry Kiwi

) talk funny but they are mostly understandable. They do have a lot of words that are unique and unless you know them you salt. (ex. mozzie, piked) But I find that the bums in Australia chat real bad. A homeless bum was talking to me a couple of days ago and I had no idea what he was saying.

**uswe** · 07-10-2009, 07:47 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-style: italic">Maybe one of the reasons for the deviation from the English language (which is happening in all English speaking countries) is partly down to laziness and bad habits? </span>

</div></div>

Deviation? or <span style="color: #006600">EVOLUTION</span>? I don't think it's laziness... take the U.S. southern accent vs. an Australian one; neither of them seem lazy, they're just very different and evolved in different ways.

Same goes for Quebecois French and European French; neither, by any means, are lazy; they're just a little different (with a bit of different pronunciation) and evolved in different ways.

In fact, the last time I was in Quebec i was standing in line in a restaurant, with a friend of mine, and I overheard the Quebecois owner talking to this French woman. He was commenting on her Parisian accent and they were conversing just fine. However, if you ask some French people, they'll say that Quebecois is completely different and they rather just speak English to them ... But I speak European French and I conversed just fine with Les Quebecois... I guess it just all depends on ones point of view of what's "completely different". </div></div>
What I was refering to when I said "lazyiness" and "bad habits" was diction, grammar, articulation. Where virtually every other word is basically, err, erm, at the end of the day, as I say, yeah, do you know what I mean, know what I'm saying, and so on added to an accent/dialect/slang that you have a difficulty understanding, you could end up a bit

If someone has an accent you're not used to, but they have reasonably good grammar/diction then there shouldn't be a problem. If they have bad grammar/diction coupled with accent/slang you're not familiar with, again you could end up

The variation of accents/dialects within languages are so wide, eg Britisha's reference to her Spanish client.

This is very interesting

<span style="font-style: italic"> Yuh si weh yuh stawt Mummie B?</span>

**britisha** · 07-10-2009, 10:12 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What I was refering to when I said "lazyiness" and "bad habits" was diction, grammar, articulation. Where virtually every other word is basically, err, erm, at the end of the day, as I say, yeah, do you know what I mean, know what I'm saying, and so on added to an accent/dialect/slang that you have a difficulty understanding, you could end up a bit

If someone has an accent you're not used to, but they have reasonably good grammar/diction then there shouldn't be a problem. If they have bad grammar/diction coupled with accent/slang you're not familiar with, again you could end up

The variation of accents/dialects within languages are so wide, eg Britisha's reference to her Spanish client.

This is very interesting

<span style="font-style: italic"> Yuh si weh yuh stawt Mummie B?</span> </div></div>

Seh wha?

**chukkle* a bit confusing?

Even among my Irish friends..some a dem I cannot figgah hout what di hell dem saying and the others...no problem man..I figured that they are not from the same part of the kuntrie.

I do agree with yah, dat the way some people speak, coupled with the accent can cause confusion...[among different groups] and this is where Ebonics has entered this thread.

Sidebar: Now, take China and the Philippines for example...there are "Filipinos" who don't understand what others are saying in their language..[yes, it is not a dialect, there are texts about the language in print] Same for differences in Chinese language[s].

Uswe...

If she had said all this without the <span style="font-weight: bold">F</span> bombs, it would be lovely.

WARNING/DISCLAIMER SOME CURSE WORDS IN THIS VIDEO...IN DEFENSE OF EBONICS

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LZC3M-BvcBM"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LZC3M-BvcBM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

**britisha** · 07-10-2009, 10:40 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

An interesting commentary... Is Ebonics a language?

Read at leisure, kindah long

**uswe** · 07-10-2009, 12:28 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

B, what I meant was you started this of as an "Offshot of "Patois" thread" and look at how it has evolved

The Irish accent can be broken down even further to the difference between people from
Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

Watched the video, the woman made some good points notwithstanding the <span style="font-weight: bold">F</span>bombs
I don't think theres anything wrong with the various derivations of the English language and
people shouldn't be made to feel ashamed or embarrassed in speaking them. This shouldn't
be an either or situation, but being able to speak both Ebonics/Creole or whatever dialect,
in addition to having a decent grasp of English is beneficial so as not to limit yourself.

This is a good thread

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-10-2009, 12:35 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix_de_PM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't speak French, but from the sound of it Hatian Creole sounds simpler to me than French. French people make sounds with their mouth that's not natural to me, and the Hatians speak French like it was English.

Australians and New Zealanders (sorry Kiwi

) talk funny but they are mostly understandable. They do have a lot of words that are unique and unless you know them you salt. (ex. mozzie, piked) But I find that the bums in Australia chat real bad. A homeless bum was talking to me a couple of days ago and I had no idea what he was saying. </div></div>In haitian creole even the words for man an woman are different. It is not broken french as sone want to claim it is a complete different language withe a bit of broken french intersperced.i have been immersed in thelanguage when my family had business in PaP and i could understand a bit of it. andd no french dictionary will not helpyou with it.

**britisha** · 07-10-2009, 01:06 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B, what I meant was you started this of as an "Offshoot of "Patois" thread" and look at how it has evolved

The Irish accent can be broken down even further to the difference between people from
Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

Watched the video, the woman made some good points notwithstanding the <span style="font-weight: bold">F</span>bombs
I don't think there's anything wrong with the various derivations of the English language and
people shouldn't be made to feel ashamed or embarrassed in speaking them. This shouldn't
be an either or situation, but being able to speak both Ebonics/Creole or whatever dialect,
in addition to having a decent grasp of English is beneficial so as not to limit yourself.

This is a good thread
</div></div>

Thanks Uswe.

To reiterate, I remember when I was growing up as a girl in Jamaica, if one spoke patois, he/she was either illiterate/uneducated, low class or SUPPOSEDLY from the poorer class...it is as if there was a stigma attached to it.

Now even educated people are going out of their way to speak or learn "patois" as if some status is now attached to it...**chukkle** mebbie it is now a fashion statement as well.

[I've heard it among the educated mulattos here, from Ja, who once upon a time wouldn't dare "stoop" to communicate in "Patois.."]

to the Sistah on Ebonics, she is "right on the money.."

Careful how you use that word "deviation;" IronMan thinks it is more of an "evolution;" in any case, I understand you clearly and tend to agree.

...and oh yes, this topic took on a life of it's own...we haven't even gotten into Jafaikan yet, or delved further into Cockney.

**RcOmK** · 07-10-2009, 01:44 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

The main thing that i just really want people to understand is, just like Haitian Kreyol is a language separate from French, Jamaican Creole is a language separate from English. They are not dialects, or "improper speech"; they are CREOLE LANGUAGES.

I remember teaching some friends some words in Patwa and I taught them "<span style="font-weight: bold">pikni</span>" which actually comes from the word "<span style="font-weight: bold">pequeño</span>" in SPANISH - meaning <span style="font-weight: bold">small</span>
So it's like we're saying <span style="font-weight: bold">the small one</span> when we say "<span style="font-weight: bold"> di pikni</span>".

There's also the way, in Jamaican Creole, that we use the word "<span style="font-weight: bold">a</span>" (ah). It means "<span style="font-weight: bold">to/at</span>" in Jamaican Creole, which is exactly what it means in <span style="font-weight: bold">SPANISH</span> also.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #006600">Ex: </span></span>
<span style="color: #660000">"TO"</span>
(JC) mi gaan <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #006600">a</span> </span>mi yaad.
(SP) me voy <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #006600">a</span></span> la casa.

<span style="color: #660000">"AT"</span>
(JC) im de <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #006600">a</span></span> di dor
(SP) él está <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #006600">a</span></span> la puerta

pretty cool stuff...

And i'm glad that Ms. Ebonics isn't ashamed

**uswe** · 07-10-2009, 02:18 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

B, what you said about some among the chattering classes looking down on Patois and regarding low class when you were growing up was profound.

Do you think that part of the reason why those who wouldn't dare "stoop" to communicate in patois in Jamaica
and who now speak it in the US do so because they don't have the status they enjoyed back home and have
to stand in line like everybody else and associate with with folks who they probably would have not encountered in Jamaica?

I said derivation not deviation evolution is a good description still

Jafaikan was a term invented by academia to describe the influence Jamaican Patois has had on the English language
and urban/inner city vernacular. In London, "Street" as many refer to it, seems to be replacing the Cockney dialect.
This is partly due to the transitory nature of its population as well as the indegenous Cockney speakers,
the white working class, moving out of areas where it was traditionally spoken.

**britisha** · 07-11-2009, 06:09 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

<span style="font-weight: bold">B, what you said about some among the chattering classes looking down on Patois and regarding low class when you were growing up was profound.</span><span style="font-style: italic">

Do you think that part of the reason why those who wouldn't dare "stoop" to communicate in patois in Jamaica
and who now speak it in the US do so because<span style="font-weight: bold"> they don't have the status they enjoyed back home and have
to stand in line like everybody else</span> and associate with with folks who they probably would have not encountered in Jamaica?</span>

I tend to concur with you re the reason why some of them would want to speak Patois now...plus they have come to realise that it is not the language of only marginalized folks...educated people speak [chat ] Patois as well, and in fact it is an ASSET to BE ABLE do so....

Once upon a time, when some people were describing Patois speakers, they say that they "chat Patois', never speak Patois...it didn't rank among oral communication that was eligible to be spoken, but merely "chatted." ... they might even have studied and learned about Creyol in other parts of the world, and now come to realise seh, speaking Patois, doesn't define a person....some a dem a chry now fi come off as even "hip, " "with it" "cool" not stiff and gwaan like dem know how fi flex.

**britisha** · 07-11-2009, 06:21 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

Den mi almoas figget fi gi yuh di joke...mi was up innah di Bronx tiddeh...uppah White Plains Road...so mi was in dis Korean veggie store whey dem sell everything Jamaican fi cook...well almoas everyting.

Anihoo I saw this<span style="font-weight: bold"> Chinese</span> chap with a lady whom I presumed was his Mom...so mi said tuh him seh..."Yuh fram Jamaica?"

Him seh "yes man"

So mi ask him "from where"...and he replied "Spain Town"...and in reply to his question mi replied "Kingston"...all innah Patois, and we were joking around...after that he introduced his Mom and we greeted each other. Wi had a lively likkle convo wid him all asking mi when lass mi go 'ome... an how mi noffie mek nobaddie tel mi anyting fi mi noh go bak go visit .

What really made mi fass, is how he had the basket, filling it with Jamaican goodies, while chatting away in Patois with his Mom..he was right at home, becozz for blocks and blocks is pere Patois mi did a hear, and hiff mi nain know seh a Bronx mi did deh, mi udda swear seh a Matchis Lane mi did en up.. .mi seh, "fancy dat.."

<span style="font-style: italic">Hope Uswe know whey Matchis Lane deh, whey mi a talk bout</span>

**uswe** · 07-11-2009, 06:52 PM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

B, what a lovely story..there was a Chinese restaurant in Clapton, east London.
People would go in there expecting it to be your normal run of the mill Chinese restaurant,
until the woman behind the counter said..weh yuh waan fi eat

You know what you said reminds me of a story Motty Perkins told about one of his Chinese Jamaican friends.
His friend was in a van with other Chinese Jamaicans at a shopping mall waiting for a parkin space, a space
beacame available and before he could drive into to it someone jumped in front of him. He said di Chiney man
leggo wan piece ah dutty badwud some black Jamaican's happened to be passing by, overheard him and said,
"wait, yuh ah wan ah wi"? They then went over and made the person move their vehicle so he could park what does that tell you?

<span style="font-style: italic">Yes mi kno weh Matchis Lane deh, mi madda use fi lib deh </span>

B,

**britisha** · 07-12-2009, 09:58 AM

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

Now dat was a funny story, Uswe.

Even on the job, one hears the occasional B-C wail hout outtah nowhere.

The other joke is, the 'Mericans know those words now and can report the wailer if he/she uses those wordds to them, especially in a confrontation.

Hall innah dah streets a Brooklyn, mi hear bwouys fram di odda islands using dem, dutty badwuds, an dem fluent wid it yuh si?

Uswe ::, mi enjoying di one and one wid yuh mi chile..

<span style="font-style: italic">deyah a tink bout di Machis Lane bit</span>....

Offshot of the "Patois" thread

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

ads