Offshot of the "Patois" thread

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

During the 50's when South Africa made it mandatory that Africans should be educated in tribal languages in all schools . The that was the cause of first school riots in which the police massacred and injured hundreds. That was the beginning of open rebellion against apartheid.
They were not fools They white South Africans use the same strategy that if they are educated in their language it will improve their self seteem .
Well the people also knew that they would not be able to communicate with the rest of the world.
So they knew what to throw out and what to keep. They did not throw out the baby with the bath water. Most of thise who are promiting it at the technical level wish no good for the country. They have their agendas. when e people really hearboth side of the story they will ahve to leave the country
Want to condemn the majority to the same state they have been in fo rgenerations.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Offshot of the "Patois" thread

The folks that wanted African American English (AAE) or African American Vernacular English (AAVE) used in Oakland schools were of the same mind... they thought it would be good for self-esteem.

http://linguistlist.org/topics/ebonics/

According to Smitherman, the overwhelming controversy and debates concerning AAVE in public schools insinuate the deeper, more implicit deterministic attitudes towards the African-American community as a whole. Smitherman describes this as a reflection of the &quot;power elite's perceived insignificance and hence rejection of Afro-American language and culture&quot;. She also asserts that since African Americans, in order to succeed, are forced to conform to European American society, this ultimately means the &quot;eradication of black language…and the adoption of the linguistic norms of the white middle class.&quot; The necessity for a &quot;bi-dialectialism&quot; (AAVE and SAE) has &quot;some blacks contend that being bi-dialectal not only causes a schism in the black personality, but it also implies such dialects are 'good enough' for blacks but not for whites.&quot; <span style="font-style: italic">However, this is an errant view, for it is the norm throughout the world for one's dialectical mother tongue to be subordinate to the Standard Language in the realms of education and interregional and intercultural communication,</span> such as is the case for Swiss who speak Alemannisch as their native language, but use Standard German at school and for communication with speakers of other Germanic dialects, and as is also the case for all Chinese who do not speak Mandarin as their native tongue. The development of a Standard Language alongside variant dialects is the usual and healthy structure of a language. It is only by cultural bias, instead of logic and communicativeness, that effort is made to eliminate these dialects rather than foster their cultivation through the balanced use and sufficient teaching of an unambiguous standard dialect for all.

[britisha]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

fi chru...a really dedding wid laff...<span style="font-size: 20pt">

&quot;A nof a dem a waak an a put Patwa dong. A Jamiekan, mek wi big it op; a fi wi mada tong!..</span>I really love that signature IronMan.

I must check that &quot;Belizean&quot; site further, it is very informative.

IronMan

[uswe]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

In both their contributions to this excellent thread, Britisha and Iron Man have proven, in my view, beyond all reasonable doubt.
That one can be well versed in the English language as well as Jamaican Creole. They have made it abundantly clear that its not an either or situation, but about being bi-lingual.

Like it or not, for a significant number of Jamaicans, Patois is their mother tongue. Whilst it is advisable that one should have a grasp of English, it doesn't have to be at the expense of native Creole, which is the case for the vast majority of Jamaicans anyway.

B &amp; Iron Man, well done for getting the thread back on track

[RcOmK]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The folks that wanted African American English (AAE) or African American Vernacular English (AAVE) used in Oakland schools were of the same mind... they thought it would be good for self-esteem.

http://linguistlist.org/topics/ebonics/

According to Smitherman, the overwhelming controversy and debates concerning AAVE in public schools insinuate the deeper, more implicit deterministic attitudes towards the African-American community as a whole. Smitherman describes this as a reflection of the &quot;power elite's perceived insignificance and hence rejection of Afro-American language and culture&quot;. She also asserts that since African Americans, in order to succeed, are forced to conform to European American society, this ultimately means the &quot;eradication of black language…and the adoption of the linguistic norms of the white middle class.&quot; The necessity for a &quot;bi-dialectialism&quot; (AAVE and SAE) has &quot;some blacks contend that being bi-dialectal not only causes a schism in the black personality, but it also implies such dialects are 'good enough' for blacks but not for whites.&quot; <span style="font-style: italic">However, this is an errant view, for it is the norm throughout the world for one's dialectical mother tongue to be subordinate to the Standard Language in the realms of education and interregional and intercultural communication,</span> such as is the case for Swiss who speak Alemannisch as their native language, but use Standard German at school and for communication with speakers of other Germanic dialects, and as is also the case for all Chinese who do not speak Mandarin as their native tongue. The development of a Standard Language alongside variant dialects is the usual and healthy structure of a language. It is only by cultural bias, instead of logic and communicativeness, that effort is made to eliminate these dialects rather than foster their cultivation through the balanced use and sufficient teaching of an unambiguous standard dialect for all. </div></div>

I would like to point out that <span style="color: #660000">African American Vernacular</span> (aka Ebonics) is a <span style="color: #660000">DIALECT</span> of English, where <span style="color: #006600">Jamaican Creole</span> (aka Patwa/Patois) is a Creole <span style="color: #006600">LANGUAGE</span> separate from English... It seems that i should give examples of what a dialect is <span style="font-weight: bold">AGAIN</span>:

US English VS. UK English;

US &quot;New Yorker&quot; accent VS. US Southern Accent;

Quebecois (Canadian French) VS. European French;

South African accent VS. Australian accent;

Mexican Spanish VS. Spain Spanish;

Brazilian Portuguese VS. Portugal Portuguese;

Belize Kriol VS Jamaican Creole (Kriol/Patwa/Patois); <span style="font-weight: bold">ETC.</span>

And as Uswe reiterated, britisha and I have have made it CLEAR that IT WILL BE TAUGHT ALONGSIDE ENGLISH. Furthermore, they will also continue to have the option of a foreign language, (like they always have) when they reach that point in their academic careers.

[RcOmK]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most of thise who are promiting it at the technical level wish no good for the country. They have their agendas. when e people really hearboth side of the story they will ahve to leave the country
Want to condemn the majority to the same state they have been in fo rgenerations. </div></div>


YES! I'm sure that the University of the West Indies Lingustics Department/ The UWI Jamaican Language Unit wants nothing more than the destruction of the Jamaican people...

[RcOmK]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

@ britsiha &amp; uswe

[britisha]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In both their contributions to this excellent thread, Britisha and Iron Man have proven, in my view, beyond all reasonable doubt.
That one can be well versed in the English language as well as Jamaican Creole. They have made it abundantly clear that its not an either or situation, but about being bi-lingual.

Like it or not, for a significant number of Jamaicans, Patois is their mother tongue. Whilst it is advisable that one should have a grasp of English, it doesn't have to be at the expense of native Creole, which is the case for the vast majority of Jamaicans anyway.

B &amp; Iron Man, well done for getting the thread back on track
</div></div>

Uswe.

[britisha]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to point out that <span style="color: #660000">African American Vernacular</span> (aka Ebonics) is a <span style="color: #660000">DIALECT</span> of English, where <span style="color: #006600">Jamaican Creole</span> (aka Patwa/Patois) is a Creole <span style="color: #006600">LANGUAGE</span> separate from English... It seems that i should give examples of what a dialect is <span style="font-weight: bold">AGAIN</span>:

US English VS. UK English;

US &quot;New Yorker&quot; accent VS. US Southern Accent;

Quebecois (Canadian French) VS. European French;

South African accent VS. Australian accent;

Mexican Spanish VS. Spain Spanish;

Brazilian Portuguese VS. Portugal Portuguese;

Belize Kriol VS Jamaican Creole (Kriol/Patwa/Patois); <span style="font-weight: bold">ETC.</span>

And as Uswe reiterated, britisha and I have have made it CLEAR that IT WILL BE TAUGHT ALONGSIDE ENGLISH. Furthermore, they will also continue to have the option of a foreign language, (like they always have) when they reach that point in their academic careers.
</div></div>

I am here wondering what is so difficult to understand.

IronMan.

[britisha]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most of thise who are promiting it at the technical level wish no good for the country. They have their agendas. when e people really hearboth side of the story they will ahve to leave the country
Want to condemn the majority to the same state they have been in fo rgenerations. </div></div>


YES! I'm sure that the University of the West Indies Lingustics Department/ The UWI Jamaican Language Unit wants nothing more than the destruction of the Jamaican people...


</div></div>

Check the use of the word &quot;condemn&quot;...hiff a laff a ded. Mebbie he has a point, afterall he brags that he is a product of UWI, and if that is the case, then Heaven help us...mebbie he has a point, however invalid; mebbie he knows something that we don't know...afterall, &quot;the proof of the pudding.&quot;

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

Some of us go beyond the mere meaning of the word. to the use iof the word. condemn in this case is referring to the situation wher Jamaican have not advanced in proportion to the investment, because or the deficiency in the use of the English language. If Jamaica had concentrated in teaching a broader use of English language including elocution. The high percent of call centers that is in India would have been equally placed in Jamaica using the English speakers. At least <span style="font-size: 20pt"> every other country i teaching their people to speak English. Jamaica is the only one that is attempting to teach them a language that they already know more than English
talk about stupid idea.</span>
The Country cannot even find workers that speak English or any foreign languages ti be employed in industry, but it is going to waste money teaching people to speak a language that they already know better than any other language.
How backward can they get??

[RcOmK]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

I really don't understand why you don't realize that they will <span style="font-weight: bold">CONTINUE TO TEACH ENGLISH!</span>

They will also continue to offer foreign language (like they always have) when the students reach that point in their academic careers.

I'm sorry, but how much more basic can I make it for you to understand???

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't understand why you don't realize that they will <span style="font-weight: bold">CONTINUE TO TEACH ENGLISH!</span>

They will also continue to offer foreign language (like they always have) when the students reach that point in their academic careers.

I'm sorry, but how much more basic can I make it for you to understand??? </div></div>They never put enough in teaching of English,all these years, but all of a sudden they can find money i this dire economic times to finance the teaching of a language that everybody already know??
What nonsense?
Then they wonder why the country is SO economically backward???

[RcOmK]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't understand why you don't realize that they will <span style="font-weight: bold">CONTINUE TO TEACH ENGLISH!</span>

They will also continue to offer foreign language (like they always have) when the students reach that point in their academic careers.

I'm sorry, but how much more basic can I make it for you to understand??? </div></div>They never put enough in teaching of English,all these years, but all of a sudden they can find money i this dire economic times to finance the teaching of a language that everybody already know??
What nonsense?
Then they wonder why the country is SO economically backward??? </div></div>

1.) It's teaching the writing system. Not vocabulary.

2.) THIS WILL HELP TO IMPROVE THE STUDENTS' ENGLISH! AS I STATED A LOOOONG TIME AGO:
<span style="color: #006600"><span style="font-weight: bold">ONE</span> of the reasons they decided to do this was to get rid of, what is linguistically referred to as, the mesolect. The mesolect is the use of two languages at the same time, but the speaker thinks that they are one language. This is RAMPANT in Jamaica with the combination of English and Jamaican Creole; people speak/write the two mixed together, but they think that they are speaking/writing English. Teaching that <span style="font-weight: bold">1.)</span> Jamaican Creole is a language separate from English and <span style="font-weight: bold">2.)</span> There is a standard writing system, will teach children (early on) to separate the two so that they won't be, either speaking/writing &quot;improper&quot;<span style="font-weight: bold"> English</span>, or speaking/writing &quot;improper&quot; Patwa.</span>

I'm so tired of repeating myself to you... If what I write is above your level of comprehension, please let me know. Otherwise, use a Dictionary/Thesaurus

3.) LOL You really think that the reason Jamaica is economically screwed up is because the UWI lingusitics department/JLU is promoting the Jamaican Creole writing system? Nonsense.

[britisha]

Re: Offshot of the &quot;Patois&quot; thread

<span style="font-family: 'Book Antiqua'"><span style="font-size: 20pt">LOL !!</span></span>