illegal immigrant healthcare?

**Dyoll_73** · 09-12-2009, 04:06 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: amberal37</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what you mean by "everyone", but by definition illegal immigration (the flow of) makes it difficult to determine exact numbers. It is nonsensical to open a nation's free healthcare in an uncontrolled way to a non-determinable number of people who may not have paid into an economy. Obama is not "President of the world", he is "President of America".
Liberalism can only be spread so far. </div></div>

This is a much-heralded republican talking point.

There are increased efforts to stop people from unlawfully entering the US. Those efforts will only get tougher with time, even under otherwise progressive administrations. They won't stop every single person from coming here unlawfully, but they will substantially reduce the amount. There are also stepped up efforts to enforce immigration laws - to identify and deport people who have committed crimes, overstayed their visas and are caught, and those who entered the country unlawfully, etc.

The number of undocumented people said to be here (13 million we are told) is exaggerated; millions have returned to their home countries on their own in the last 18 months due to the downturn in the economy.

It is my understanding that millions of people currently described as "undocumented" have had their applications approved and are in fact waiting for the availability of visas, and may become permanent residents ('green card' holders) in the very near future - or at anytime, for that matter.

Also, a significant number of undocumented persons may purchase (as some currently do) health insurance on their own with no cost to the public purse.

These factors, all taken together, would greatly reduce the number of undocumented persons seeking to benefit from the so-called "free healthcare."

Consider this: it was pointed out that undocumented persons pay into the system money amounting to billions of dollars from which they will not benefit in their current status, and I'm talking about those who, believe it or not, pay taxes and other 'entitlement' deductions - to say nothing of those who pay what amounts to billions in sales taxes and patronize merchants thereby contributing to the consumer spending which accounts for a significant portion of the GDP.

So again: Get the cost of health care in this country down through tort reform ( but with appropriate compensation for medical malpractice), cut out unnecessary testing, put in place a sophisticated medical records management system, and formulate and implement policies to promote prevention and healthy lifestyles. In the long term it could bring down the cost of health care in this country to a fiscally sustainable level. The "pot" can serve everyone.

**britisha** · 09-12-2009, 05:02 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great points!

A relative of mine a few years ago was here on vacation from Jamaica and had to be rushed to a hospital in NYC. The hospital didn't charge him anything when they learned that he was a visitor.</div></div>

This is what I am talking about; and this is why they have Medicaid, however the shortcomings with it, [Medicaid] I choose not to list now. Of course if that institution is taking Hill Burton Funds, they have no choice but to treat him or face serious penalties including cut off of funding, from the Feds, and even the State.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The way I understand it is that some undocumented persons can and do purchase health insurance. Clearly, this is at no cost to the public purse. The current House Bill under consideration would allow this arrangement to continue although the available pool of insurance from which such persons could buy into may be reduced.</div></div>

This is my understanding as well, although I didn't think/know that the pool would be reduced, if anything, it would behoove them to expand it..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But I hear talk of putting a squeeze on this, basically to cut off the life support for such individuals in an effort to force them back to their home countries.</div></div>

Well, yuh know Humano, *this* would come as NO surprise, and this is where my question arose, in asking does it appear that he says one thing, but really means another.

If you remember in the initial stage[s] of his campaign, he was "pro" illegal aliens, in terms of talking that something should be worked out to have them stay in America and become legally working folks who <span style="font-weight: bold">will pay taxes</span>...and this is not to say that some of them aren't paying taxes already.

Some even made it <span style="font-style: italic">their</span> duty to report about his aunt who was supposedly here illegally...but *I* digress.. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm not sure what form the Senate version of the bill will take and the language it will contain, but it would be a travesty if that inhumanity is allowed.</div></div>

Actually I read something like this on one editorial page here this week, stating that America which is touting how "good" and "moral" it is would be going against it's values to not only exclude undocumented ppl from access to this health care, but to use inability to pay as a reason to ship them back home, if illness befalls them where they have to receive free care. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As you mentioned, hospitals are obligated to provide a certain level of care to people who turn up at their facilities with serious injury, and this even applies to pregnant women, for example. So yes, undocumented persons will still be provided certain basic services.</div></div>

Yes, certain services like life-saving intervention will be given....and that could be up for questioning as to the *quality* of treatment rendered.. however, above and beyond that, now it appears that these ppl will be rehabilitated to a certain stage where they can travel back to their country of origin; even if it is as clear as day that they are too ill to travel <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

But what about overall health coverage? Should they get it? If the anti-immigrant crowd gets its way, there may not be a legal basis for providing health care for undocumented people (the law would say they shouldn't), but the moral argument could still be made that health care is a fundamental human right that should be available to all regardless of status or ability to pay. This why a number of institutions and organizations around the country, including religious groups and charities, have provided health care to undocumented persons and the poor generally for free or for a very small fee. For these organizations, all people are entitled to dignity and the affirmation of their humanity, and the moral argument trumps the legal.</div></div>
...excellently stated, and I concur.

No one wants to be sick, and I can bet the farm that no undocumented person would show up at an ER if he/she didn't find it necessary to do so. In fact, many ppl neglect acute medical conditions out of fear of being reported to the INS, and some even fear if and when they report for medical care.

[<span style="font-weight: bold">the law clearly states that no one should be reported to the INS if *they* are undocumented and seeks medical care...</span>...at least that is my understanding of it]. This in turn only create a more serious health issue for the individual...something that could have been treated and even "cured" is now turned into a greater problem because it was neglected in it's earlier stage, out of fear.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

... but Of course, as every social justice effort has done, it is to fight to get the moral incorporated into the legal. This is not easy because not everyone shares the same moral values. But if all, or a significant majority, could agree that health care is a fundamental human right, this issue could be resolved.</div></div>

I've heard it said, repeatedly that "health care is NOT a right, it is a privilege"...Well with that mind-set, it is not difficult to see why America is in the quandary it is when it comes on to health care and it's "allocation..."..and why the country is not as healthy as some would wish to believe. Afterall, some in the medical profession share the view as well....amazing!!! <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The retort from politicians is usually that it is a cost to taxpayers to provide services to such individuals - except that what is forgotten or ignored is the billions of dollars that undocumented persons have contributed to the system through sales taxes and the purchase of goods, some have paid taxes and social security deductions which amount to billions.
</div></div>

What I find hypocritical is the fact that those who are thumbing their nose at these undocumented ppl, would be "eyeing" them to enlist in the military to fight and even die for this country, while at the same time saying that their lives are not worth sparing if they should show up at an ER with say, chest pain, simply because they cannot afford to pay.<span style="font-weight: bold">

In fact, documentaries have been done on the VA system where their own vets are getting inadequate care, although they are citizens and deserve the best....so this should be used as an indicator for the rest of the nation</span>

OH!!! the irony!! and the hypocrisy !!

This is the hypocrisy of health care in America...as I said above I won't list some of the problems surrounding "free care.." suffice it to say, the system is radically broken and need serious and quick intervention to rehabilitate it to some level of "normalcy.." There is too much waste...the things that are regarded as "disposable" could be recycled... the enormous salaries that their CEO's [some whom don't even have an MBA] are enjoying for doing absolutely nothing...ripping off the Insurance companies in the form of "overhead" begs the question..

This is why many institutions of this nature went belly up in NY, there was fiscal waste and mismanagement at the expense of the patients; and this has gone on for DECADES..

In addition to the fact that there are serious cases of overcharge[s] that are not questioned...no wonder some don't want it fixed...too much would be revealed, would come to light and open the door to new scandals...in other words "theft" "theft" from the govt and the tax-paying public..but I digress agen. [many of them are doing hard time now for this, and the incentive to steal and rip off the govt/Medicaid/even Medicare and the patients still exists]

Did y'all know that different insurance companies are BILLED different rates for the same disease process/treatment etc? Govt needs to set standards and rates for reimbursement[s] and then this wouldn't be a problem as well, especially for those who pay out of pocket...it shouldn't be left up to the ins companies as to how much they are WILLING to pay,because of who sends them the bill.....a person in a plan pays LESS for the same treatment that another person who is uninsured pays..check it out folks....

...and this is really what is killing some of these doctors who are against Universal Health Care; they can bill ad lib, depending on which insurance plan a person has.. ....and they don't want to lose this option.

..as an example...I saw 2 different doctors for the same type of concern on different occasions....nothing serious, well *MY* insurance was billed $800.00 dollars by one doctor, and $100.00 by the other...point being same company billed differently for same thing; not to mention agen that the same doctor can bill different companies different rate[s]..

**Dyoll_73** · 09-12-2009, 07:11 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one wants to be sick, and I can bet the farm that no undocumented person would show up at an ER if he/she didn't find it necessary to do so. In fact, many ppl neglect acute medical conditions out of fear of being reported to the INS, and some even fear if and when they report for medical care.

[the law clearly states that no one should be reported to the INS if *they* are undocumented and seeks medical care......at least that is my understanding of it]. This in turn only create a more serious health issue for the individual...something that could have been treated and even "cured" is now turned into a greater problem because it was neglected in it's earlier stage, out of fear.</div></div>

As I read this and I reflect on the debate over health care, it seems to me that humanity and compassion are missing. What is the practice of medicine without these?

We have moved a far way from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free ..."

**Dr.Dudd** · 09-12-2009, 07:18 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

The practice of medicine is to dispense medicine and make a profit. The practice of health care is to return patients to homeostasis.
this fight is not about health care. It is about health Insurance.
health insurance add no value to health care delivery.
They simply collect money from a population. Then take 30% of the top and pay out the rest for service to the same population.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one wants to be sick, and I can bet the farm that no undocumented person would show up at an ER if he/she didn't find it necessary to do so. In fact, many ppl neglect acute medical conditions out of fear of being reported to the INS, and some even fear if and when they report for medical care.

[the law clearly states that no one should be reported to the INS if *they* are undocumented and seeks medical care......at least that is my understanding of it]. This in turn only create a more serious health issue for the individual...something that could have been treated and even "cured" is now turned into a greater problem because it was neglected in it's earlier stage, out of fear.</div></div>

As I read this and I reflect on the debate over health care, it seems to me that humanity and compassion are missing. What is the practice of medicine without these?

We have moved a far way from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free ..." </div></div>

**britisha** · 09-12-2009, 08:14 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one wants to be sick, and I can bet the farm that no undocumented person would show up at an ER if he/she didn't find it necessary to do so. In fact, many ppl neglect acute medical conditions out of fear of being reported to the INS, and some even fear if and when they report for medical care.

[the law clearly states that no one should be reported to the INS if *they* are undocumented and seeks medical care......at least that is my understanding of it]. This in turn only create a more serious health issue for the individual...something that could have been treated and even "cured" is now turned into a greater problem because it was neglected in it's earlier stage, out of fear.</div></div>

As I read this and I reflect on the debate over health care, it seems to me that humanity and compassion are missing. What is the practice of medicine without these?

We have moved a far way from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free ..." </div></div>

We must have read the same piece, and again I concur.

Regretfully to say, there is hardly any compassion and even "humanity" in medicine today. Many enter the field primarily for the money that can be made, not to help in restoring sick people to health...that is secondary in many cases...and as judgmental as this might sound, unfortunately it is a FACT.

Nobody is saying that ppl should spend six figures for x amount of years to become qualified as a physician, to give away their labour...but the real proof why they studied "medicine" is becoming more and more evident, when some of them realise that the pickings might be slim, slimmer than they envisioned....and not to mention the million dollar plus loans that they have to repay. .

Did I mention the overhead and malpracticve insurance premiums that they have to pay now? i think Obama hinted at malpractice and how it figures in the discussion, but I missed that part...of course we know that this insurance premium is factored into doctor's charges to patients..

One has to be very committed and dedicated, willing to spend hours and days in the lab to find cures/new treatments for many disease processes, but again, if there is money to be made, would you kill the goose that lays the golden egg?

Suffice it to say, the practice of medicine <span style="font-style: italic">eventually</span> will be attractive to only those who wish to help mankind, not the money grabbers and quacks who are coming to realise that this is drying up as well.

In essence, it would be better to insure the undocumented since money is the problem, and, there will be now more patients who are covered, thereby guaranteeing payment for services they might receive.

**Dyoll_73** · 09-12-2009, 08:23 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this fight is not about health care. It is about health Insurance.
health insurance add no value to health care delivery.</div></div>

This IS about health care policy which includes BOTH. Having insurance, inadequate insurance, or no insurance at all, is related to whether one receives full treatment, barely adequate treatment, or no treatment.

**Gen** · 09-12-2009, 08:50 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

health insurance warra ?

yuh bettah believe when yuh guh a the people dem place widout insurance cyard 7 time outa 10 yuh end up wid substandard care.

**britisha** · 09-12-2009, 10:35 PM

Re: illegal immigrant healthcare?

**chukkle*

illegal immigrant healthcare?

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