JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

**Dyoll_73** · 09-25-2009, 09:06 PM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All "convicted and guilty" first degree murderers should not be wasting ours or the CCJ's time....</div></div>

Yeah! Just go ahead and hang them, right?

A jury decides guilt or innocence, and juries can be wrong. Combine other factors that can lead to a miscarriage of justice - over-zealous prosecutors, coerced confessions, incompetent defense counsel, false testimony, you name it - and you realize why there is a need for two layers of appeal above the trial court. Hanging (or any other form of death) should be abolished, but civilized societies at least try to ensure that they don't hang the wrong person.

I see you have bought into that nonsense being peddled by the likes of Nicholson that gunmen had free reign because they figured they won't be put to death. You would want us to believe that a gunman makes this calculation: "OK, if I kill this person, I will get life as opposed to the death penalty, so, ok, I will kill." NO! They kill with premeditation because they believe they can get away with it and escape both life imprisonment or the death penalty. As simple as that. I should remind you that gunmen were running rampant even before there was a moratorium on the death penalty in 1988.

**Amberal37** · 09-26-2009, 12:53 AM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

Totally agree with you on this. There is no proven evidence that the death penalty is an effective deterrent for heinous murders.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...A jury decides guilt or innocence, and juries can be wrong. Combine other factors that can lead to a miscarriage of justice - over-zealous prosecutors, coerced confessions, incompetent defense counsel, false testimony, you name it - and you realize why there is a need for two layers of appeal above the trial court. Hanging (or any other form of death) should be abolished, but civilized societies at least try to ensure that they don't hang the wrong person.

I see you have bought into that nonsense being peddled by the likes of Nicholson that gunmen had free reign because they figured they won't be put to death. You would want us to believe that a gunman makes this calculation: "OK, if I kill this person, I will get life as opposed to the death penalty, so, ok, I will kill." NO! They kill with premeditation because they believe they can get away with it and escape both life imprisonment or the death penalty. As simple as that. I should remind you that gunmen were running rampant even before there was a moratorium on the death penalty in 1988. </div></div>

**barosa** · 09-26-2009, 03:53 AM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All "convicted and guilty" first degree murderers should not be wasting ours or the CCJ's time....</div></div>

Yeah! Just go ahead and hang them, right?

A jury decides guilt or innocence, and juries can be wrong. Combine other factors that can lead to a miscarriage of justice - over-zealous prosecutors, coerced confessions, incompetent defense counsel, false testimony, you name it - and you realize why there is a need for two layers of appeal above the trial court. Hanging (or any other form of death) should be abolished, but civilized societies at least try to ensure that they don't hang the wrong person.</div></div>

Humano, I can tell that you are a proponent of abolishing the death penalty. It is a very popular concept these days in some countries and some states of the US. I am quite aware of all that can go wrong during a trial leading to a miscarriage of justice... I am not talking about those trials, those are the ones that should go to the CCJ which I'm all for... Now, let's take a case where the killer murders someone, it's all pre-medicated, the evidence is foolproof and sound as they come, using witnesses, DNA, etc. The accused is found guilty of "murder in the first degree"; ~ <span style="font-weight: bold">he is now a convicted vicious murderer</span>..

So what do you do with him and hundreds like him, Pat them on their wrists and give them all "life sentences"? I say NO! ~ <span style="font-weight: bold">They should forfeit their lives either by hanging or by more humane methods.</span> It might not be a deterrent to some, but it would send a clear message!! Crimes of passion and "self defence murders" would obviously be treated differently... These type of cases, would most certainly end with "life sentence convictions" for some defendants...
__________________________

"At a time of universal deceit," wrote George Orwell, "telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

**jah_yout** · 09-26-2009, 12:59 PM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at some point people have to have some pride in themselves and stop being an international poppishow...
the fact that queen elizabeth is our head of state tells you all you need to know about jamaica </div></div>

Well, I don't know ... maybe they figure that the Queen's role is merely ceremonial, that she exercises no real powers in Jamaica, not even through the GG. Maybe they figure they have more pressing concerns. Let's face it: if Jamaicans, <span style="font-style: italic">en masse</span>, wanted the Queen removed as Jamaica's head of state, it would have been done already. It's not very hard to do; a referendum would decide the issue.

There are other nations who have the Queen as head of state - countries that are both predominantly white and predominantly black - and they seem to be getting along just fine even with that 'travesty' of a monarch sitting thousands of miles away in London. </div></div>

good for them...puss and dog nuh have di same luck; and i don't consider jamaica to be getting along just fine...

and ask yourself if israel would accept hitler's grandson as <span style="font-style: italic">official</span> head of state....even if the role was purely ceremonial

**Dyoll_73** · 09-26-2009, 02:10 PM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]... ask yourself if israel would accept hitler's grandson as <span style="font-style: italic">official</span> head of state....even if the role was purely ceremonial </div></div>

A known grandson of Hitler, NO! Then again, there have been nazis (members of the nazi party) who have been known to pass themselves off as jews, some may even have lived in Israel. Besides, Israel has adopted some nazi ways in its treatment of Palestinians so ...

In any case, that's neither here nor there. The fact is that the arrangement involving the British monarch as Jamaica's head of state was not something forced on the people putting the constitution together in the early 60s. They made that choice voluntarily, and as far as I'm aware, there has been no significant effort, meaning popular grass roots effort, on the part of Jamaicans over the last 47 years to move towards a republic. Yes, there have been pockets of resistance to the queen from certain groups, but nothing, as far as I know, that has risen to the level of mass resistance. As I said before, if that were the case, Jamaica would have become a republic a long time ago, and even if Jamaicans still wanted a queen, they would have installed ... I don't know, maybe Carlene, the Dance Hall Queen.

Even during the nationalist PNP government of Michael Manley, a referendum could have been organized to decide the issue. And during so-called "black man time" (Patterson-Portia Simpson administrations), nothing.

**Panajar** · 09-26-2009, 02:52 PM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You do nothing to advance your position with credibility if your arguments for Jamaican political independence is because certain 'higher-ups' are white. What if Jamaica had a foreign head of state that was black, you would have no problems with that? How about the president of Nigeria, for example, as our head of state? How about the supreme court of Kenya as our final appellate court?

BTW, if you are in favour of the CCJ, there are currently two 'muzungus' on that body - one an Englishman, the other from the Dutch Antilles. </div></div>

First and foremost you wont get political correct response from me.I do not know about you ,but as a person who carry the <span style="font-weight: bold">DNA of African slaves</span> (along with 90% of my fellow Jamaicans),there is no way i can support the idea that the descendants of the former colonial/slave masters should be our head of state.We have also volunteer to have the descendants of our former slave/colonial master to be our top law enforcement officers.To show how much we revere these muzungs we pay them a higher salary than our own Jamaican citizens.Actions like these are the height of madness.
There is no way on gods earth would the Jewish people have German citizens as their top law enforcement agents.
The only conclusion i can draw from these actions are, our people as a whole and or our leaders in particular,suffer from a severe case of mental slavery and or Stockholm syndrome.

**Panajar** · 09-28-2009, 01:15 PM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<span style="font-weight: bold">Justice Panton</span> is right on target on this issue agree with him 100% here is what he said.

He did not mince words in describing opponents, some being lawyers, of a move away from the Privy Council.
"The only people who are interested in keeping the Privy Council are the <span style="font-size: 17pt">very wealthy</span>, murderers, <span style="font-size: 20pt">and the ones with colonial mentality," said Panton.</span>

LINK TO FULL STORY

**barosa** · 09-28-2009, 05:13 PM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Justice Panton</span> is right on target on this issue agree with him 100% here is what he said.

He did not mince words in describing opponents, some being lawyers, of a move away from the Privy Council.
"The only people who are interested in keeping the Privy Council are the <span style="font-size: 17pt">very wealthy</span>, murderers, <span style="font-size: 20pt">and the ones with colonial mentality," said Panton.</span>

LINK TO FULL STORY </div></div>

Panajar, Justice Panton is right! ~ Yes, he has called them out, and I will say, a majority of those he refered to, falls into the category of "Jamaica Whites", a group who feel they deserve "special status" in our society... They are still steeped in their "colonial mentalities, believing somehow that Britain "owes" them... It's time that we brushed them aside and go do the right thing... Since Independence, our courts have abused the usage of the Privy Council more than ever before by passing the buck to them. It got so bad that the Brits had to say, "Enuff is Enuff".

Cases that we should have the "gonads" to settle on their own as an Sovereign nation was routinely passed on to "mother" to decide... If we didn't have what it took to act independently, why did we clamour and shout for "INDEPENDENCE"? BTW, look what we have done with it!!! How much more embarrasment can the people of Jamaica take?... <span style="font-weight: bold">It's time to let go of mother's frock tail, declare ourselves a Constitutional REPUBLIC with our president as head of state</span>... It's that too much to ask for?

_________________________

"At a time of universal deceit," wrote George Orwell, "telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

**Dyoll_73** · 09-29-2009, 01:39 AM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

Some nuance here. First, the term "Privy Council" is used in such a way that it would convey the impression that the entire body decides cases when in fact, it is the Judicial Committee that does so, not the entire body. Somehow, the "Judicial Committee of the Privy Council" has been used interchangeably with "Privy Council".

Second, are you aware that judges from commonwealth countries also sit on the Judicial Committee of the PC? Are you aware that a Jamaican judge may also sit on the Committee of the PC to hear an appeal arising from Jamaica, for instance?

Now hear me out! Here's the thing. I have no problems with the rulings that body has handed down over the years. In my view, they have been fair. On the issue of capital punishment, just to take one issue (and yes, I know they decide more than just murder cases), the court in London is RIGHT, and the CCJ is WRONG. And don't tell me that that everyone who is convicted of murder is, in fact, guilty. And even if they were, the court in London thinks the death penalty is uncivilized, while the court in Trinidad (the CCJ) thinks killing such persons is just fine. Forgive me, but I have to side with the court sitting in London.

Yet, ironically enough, and I've said it here a lot, I still long for the day when Jamaica has a <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">final appellate court of its own</span></span>, where no body sitting outside of Jamaica decides the appeals of Jamaicans, not even the CCJ. Obviously, if Jamaica does not recognize that body as it's final court, it won't have any Jamaican judges sitting there.

The difference between you and me is that your motivations for removing the right to appeals to the PC is PURELY driven by racial factors. If you have other reasons, then you have not articulated them, and so I don't know of them; I have to go only on what you post here. And as far as I see, you don't give a damn about the quality of justice available to the average Jamaican, as long as "*******" court is not Jamaica's final court. What does this say about you?

For me, the central consideration is the quality of justice. Yes, it's a shame that in 47 years since independence, Jamaica hasn't organized and governed itself in such a way as to ensure justice for every citizen and to establish a judicial system that is truly independent. Until recently, I used to say that Jamaica keep the right to appeals to the PC until it has its own final appellate court, but since they say we need to get on our own, perhaps this will hasten the powers that be to move towards an independent final court. But I won't hold my breath since they more likely to go with that "hanging court" sitting in Trinidad instead of a Jamaican one.

Still, there's something I find curious. Many, though not all, of the people clamoring for Jamaica to end the relationship with the PC and join the CCJ are really motivated by a desire to hang people convicted of murders. Understandably, these people are fed up with the high rates of murders in society and feel that if people were being hanged, there would be less murders. But they would be wrong; they would be short-sighted, and politicians jump on it because it masks their inability to deal with the root causes of criminality in Jamaica. It's a cover for their incompetence, and worse, their culpability in criminality in Jamaica. It makes them pretend they are doing something about the problem when in fact they aren't.

But here's the more disturbing part, and an irony lost on those clamoring for blood: the court sitting in London, made up of mostly "muzungus" is decidely against the executions of mostly poor black men, while our black brothers and sisters in Jamaica, including some on this board, are clamoring for an arrangement (CCJ) that would see the executions of poor black men. Remarkable, isn't it?

I think the Jamaican people are not as "enslaved" as you think they are. They see through the BS.

**Dyoll_73** · 09-29-2009, 01:58 AM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Justice Panton</span> is right on target on this issue agree with him 100% here is what he said.

He did not mince words in describing opponents, some being lawyers, of a move away from the Privy Council.
"The only people who are interested in keeping the Privy Council are the <span style="font-size: 17pt">very wealthy</span>, murderers, <span style="font-size: 20pt">and the ones with colonial mentality," said Panton.</span>

LINK TO FULL STORY </div></div>

This so-called judge, Panton, lacks the judicial temperament to sit on the bench. When he said, it's high time Jamaica realizes it is independent, I agreed. He had me up to the point where he made that foolish statement highlighted above.

Charges of "colonial mentality" are a distraction. If you're a <span style="font-weight: bold">poor Jamaican</span> falsely convicted of first degree murder, you better make sure you appeal your case all the way to London because that's the only way you'll live.

When Mr Panton sits on the bench to decide a case that comes before him, is he applying the law strictly, or is he playing politics?

Until, the Jamaican parliament has the courage to abolish the death penalty, perhaps the Privy Council is the only force standing between the convicted and the hangman's noose.

**Wahalla** · 09-29-2009, 08:20 AM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

agree with most of that... except.. I dont think the fianl appellate court in Jamaica would be free from poltical pressuer.. Thus the CCJ is a better option in my opnion..

Please some one give me an example in the last 20 years where the PC has given a descion based on anything but law ?

**Dyoll_73** · 09-29-2009, 11:14 AM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">agree with most of that... except.. I dont think the fianl appellate court in Jamaica would be free from poltical pressuer.. Thus the CCJ is a better option in my opnion..

Please some one give me an example in the last 20 years where the PC has given a descion based on anything but law ? </div></div>

I made a similar challenge some time ago; not surprisingly, no one answered.

I think with appropriate safeguards, a Jamaican final appellate court could be made free of political interference. The major consideration is how judges would be appointed. I would suggest they be nominated by the Governor General or President subject to confirmation by a joint select committee of Parliament and wider vote by the full House of Representatives. Also, there are some eminent legal minds in Jamaica, people of the highest integrity, who could serve on the court.

The CCJ has not been free of political interference. Consider how the court is made up, almost exclusively, of judges who favour the death penalty. I don't think that was by accident. Besides, just recently, there was some report out of Trinidad that the PM, Manning, was unduly interfering with the Court.

**Dr.Dudd** · 09-29-2009, 12:15 PM

Re: JA no have no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

I am sure you are not capable of even trusting yourself to be honest.

you can believe that from a whole country we don't have the ability to establish and maintain objective just to judge yourself. How many Jamaicans have been on on world courts?

How limited in thought to think that even if that have Even the case.
I think the Jamaican high courts seem to be at least no more politically biased than the privy council That
demonstrated bias when it refuse to follow the Jamaican constitution in the castes they deem fit.
talk about mental slavery. They colonialists are capable of being more just towards us than we arecapable of, towards each other.
We certainly have a future with the privi council.
We certainly a equal to children, as they say.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">agree with most of that... except.. I dont think the final appellate court in Jamaica would be free from political pressure.. Thus the CCJ is a better option in my opinion..

Please some one give me an example in the last 20 years where the PC has given a decision based on anything but law ? </div></div>

I made a similar challenge some time ago; not surprisingly, no one answered.

I think with appropriate safeguards, a Jamaican final appellate court could be made free of political interference. The major consideration is how judges would be appointed. I would suggest they be nominated by the Governor General or President subject to confirmation by a joint select committee of Parliament and wider vote by the full House of Representatives. Also, there are some eminent legal minds in Jamaica, people of the highest integrity, who could serve on the court.

The CCJ has not been free of political interference. Consider how the court is made up, almost exclusively, of judges who favour the death penalty. I don't think that was by accident. Besides, just recently, there was some report out of Trinidad that the PM, Manning, was unduly interfering with the Court. </div></div>

**Panajar** · 09-29-2009, 12:31 PM

Re: JA no have no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

WAT A PEICE A PAPPI SHOW ,JAMAICA LOOK LIKE JON KUNU PON THE WORLD STAGE NO SELF RESPECTING COUNTRY WOULD SUBJECT ITS SELF TO THIS TREATMENT ,******* A TELL UP FE LEAVE HIM HOUSE U NOT WELCOME.THAT IS THE MENTALITY OF A COUNTRY WITH SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES .ALL THIS BACKWARD THINKING CAME OUT OF SLAVERY/ COLONIALISM

**barosa** · 09-29-2009, 04:26 PM

Re: JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Still, there's something I find curious. Many, though not all, of the people clamoring for Jamaica to end the relationship with the PC and join the CCJ are really motivated by a desire to hang people convicted of murders. <span style="font-weight: bold">Understandably, these people are fed up with the high rates of murders in society and feel that if people were being hanged, there would be less murders. But they would be wrong; they would be short-sighted,</span> and politicians jump on it because it masks their inability to deal with the root causes of criminality in Jamaica. It's a cover for their incompetence, and worse, their culpability in criminality in Jamaica. It makes them pretend they are doing something about the problem when in fact they aren't.</div></div>
HONESTLY, I dont think you understand the sense of <span style="font-weight: bold">Justice and Fairness</span> within the Jamaican people.. <span style="font-weight: bold">The British "muzungus" Colonists didn't think twice about the Hanging of Paul Bogle and William Gordon.</span> They considered themselves to be the "victims"...

<span style="font-style: italic">It's easy for you to say to the victims, many of them, the loved ones and family members of the survivors of those who have and are still being brutally murdered by these killers, <span style="font-weight: bold">that they are Wrong and short sighted to want the killers hanged for what they did. It's interesting that you say that the politicians jump on the feelings of the victims because it masks their inablity to deal with the root causes of criminality in Jamaica... It is my belief that politicians should reflect the sentiments of those they serve and represent. Because our politics are corrupted by the association with unsavory characters, many who are now "DONS" connected to those who murder in the name of politics for whichever side they belong, get a free ride ; thanks to politically biased lawyers in the system... With the passage of time things only got worse because they lack the decency to send their party "affiliates" to the gallows, thus empowering the CRIMINALS... </span></span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But here's the more disturbing part, and an irony lost on those clamoring for blood: the court sitting in London, made up of mostly "muzungus" is decidely against the executions of mostly poor black men, while our black brothers and sisters in Jamaica, including some on this board, are clamoring for an arrangement (CCJ) that would see the executions of poor black men. Remarkable, isn't it? </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">I guess, what you are suggesting is that the "mugunzus" sitting in London are more "sympathetic and merciful "to the plight of "black" murderers than their our own "black" courts at home... If you believe that, you are easily hoodwinked: they are only playing the "politically correct game".. You also implied that the KILLERS own "black brothers and sisters" in Jamaica, meaning the JAMAICAN PEOPLE want them executed by whatever means to pay for their CRIMES and that is very TRUE... <span style="font-weight: bold">The VOICE of the people is the VOICE of God..</span> ~ Jamaica became the murder capital of the world because we refused to dispense JUSTICE as we did before the British handed Jamaica to us... LOOK what we have done to it under both our govts.. We should hang our heads in SHAME...</span>
___________________________

The Voice of the People is the Voice of GOD...

JA no hav no shame..******* SEY LEGGO OF DEM FROCK TAIL

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