evolutionary theory wrang footprints

[jah_yout]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So from the looks of this, everyone in here is an agnostic. The Bible's account is wrong or at least questionable and so are the scientists, right? So apparently no one in here knows where the hell anything came from? No clues, no ability to trace back?

For example, Jah Yout, I would really love to hear your opinion if the Bible's account is allegorical and you don't believe in evolution. You're apparently emphatic that neither satisfies your taste, so what's YOUR take?</div></div>

well for me it is not one or the other...IMO the bible's creation story as told in genesis is allegorical &amp; not to be taken literally...
in my opinion the theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life...it baffles the mind that people use the evolution theory to attempt to debunk the theory of creation;
i simply do not think men and apes evolved from a common creature which in turn evolved from a creature which came out of the sea &amp; grew legs;
my question is- WHY ARE THERE STILL FISH AND APES???
why did they not also evolve?
and if that's the case, why are there no intermediary humanoid-half ape or half fish creatures to be found?
they would surely exist if all the other branches which supposedly evolved from them are still co-existing with them


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Finally, just to put something out there, evolution does NOT concern itself with the origin of the universe (something came from nothing) as it is often misunderstood by extrapolation. It concerns itself with the origins of life. </div></div>

so how does evolution explain the origin of life? IT DOES NOT. it attempts to do so by using scientific hypotheses and has become accepted by those who consider scientific theories to be infallible;
but consider this before you do:
scientists once had elaborate theories to prove that blacks were inferior and closer on the &quot;evolution chain&quot; to apes...
therefore whites were &quot;more evolved&quot; hence superior...
and people held on to these theories for centuries- some still do; false science is a dangerous thing on this earth...
the bottom line is that none of us know how it all began exactly;
but my common sense already knows that all complex systems are the result of careful design and not random events

[Derek]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Matter always existed. All of the heavy elements on our planet were created by exploding stars.

</div></div>

Matter must have been created to exist.
And the exploding stars must have come from somewhere - sorry - been created?

I don't know who created the Creator. But what is obvious to me is, matter and exploding stars existing from nothing/nowhere is illogical.
But I go on the side of an illogical Creator rather than illogical matter from nowhere.


Imagine just 200 years ago if you said one day you could pull a plastic (what's 'plastic'?) object out of your pocket and speak to someone on the other side of the world - totally illogical - at that time.
Maybe the Creator is illogical too - at all times.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Each one of us &quot;evolved&quot; from our parents...right back to the very <span style="font-weight: bold">beginning</span>. <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;We&quot; evolved from something</span>. Where the conditions for life exist, there life will be.</div></div>

What would we have found at the very beginning?
&quot;We&quot; evolved from something. That existed? As in MUST HAVE been created? </div></div>

why is it assumed that it must have been created by something.

i've already pointed out what you are wanting to learn about is called abiogenesis.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Matter always existed. All of the heavy elements on our planet were created by exploding stars.

</div></div>

Matter must have been created to exist.
And the exploding stars must have come from somewhere - sorry - been created?

I don't know who created the Creator. But what is obvious to me is, matter and exploding stars existing from nothing/nowhere is illogical.
But I go on the side of an illogical Creator rather than illogical matter from nowhere.


Imagine just 200 years ago if you said one day you could pull a plastic (what's 'plastic'?) object out of your pocket and speak to someone on the other side of the world - totally illogical - at that time.
Maybe the Creator is illogical too - at all times. </div></div>

ah. this explains a lot. derek, that's not 'logic.'

logic would dictate that there was an explanation for the phone. not that everyone should bow down and worship the person with the phone out of wonder and awe.

science would then begin to work at understanding and solving the questions.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not agnostic - I strongly believe in a Creator - but not some guy with a long beard sitting on a cloud.</div></div>

So WHICH creator are you talking about then? Perhaps you are like me, an agnostic (as of now) in that you believe there is a creator but you are not audacious enough to claim you know who or what it is hence agnosticism. In other words, he/she/it is unknowable from where you sit BUT you believe something must have created all that you see.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">I don't k</span>now</span> the answer - just like apparently everyone else.</div></div>

= agnosticism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">monk is ducking and weaving like Joe Frazier and posting long-winded cut and pastes <span style="font-weight: bold">rather than give me a straightforward answer.</span>
</div></div>

Maybe that is because there isn't a two-word answer, Derek. Have you checked the videos he asked you to look at or are you just discounting them right off the top because of a pre-conceived bias? Just asking?

Thanks for replying, however. I appreciate it because Monk is going all the way out to give an explanation, being placed on the offensive and no one else was offering an opinion.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So from the looks of this, everyone in here is an agnostic. The Bible's account is wrong or at least questionable and so are the scientists, right? So apparently no one in here knows where the hell anything came from? No clues, no ability to trace back?

For example, Jah Yout, I would really love to hear your opinion if the Bible's account is allegorical and you don't believe in evolution. You're apparently emphatic that neither satisfies your taste, so what's YOUR take?</div></div>

well for me it is not one or the other...IMO the bible's creation story as told in genesis is allegorical &amp; not to be taken literally...
in my opinion the theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life...it baffles the mind that people use the evolution theory to attempt to debunk the theory of creation;
i simply do not think men and apes evolved from a common creature which in turn evolved from a creature which came out of the sea &amp; grew legs;
my question is- WHY ARE THERE STILL FISH AND APES???
why did they not also evolve?
and if that's the case, why are there no intermediary humanoid-half ape or half fish creatures to be found?
they would surely exist if all the other branches which supposedly evolved from them are still co-existing with them


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Finally, just to put something out there, evolution does NOT concern itself with the origin of the universe (something came from nothing) as it is often misunderstood by extrapolation. It concerns itself with the origins of life. </div></div>

so how does evolution explain the origin of life? IT DOES NOT. it attempts to do so by using scientific hypotheses and has become accepted by those who consider scientific theories to be infallible;
but consider this before you do:
scientists once had elaborate theories to prove that blacks were inferior and closer on the &quot;evolution chain&quot; to apes...
therefore whites were &quot;more evolved&quot; hence superior...
and people held on to these theories for centuries- some still do; false science is a dangerous thing on this earth...
the bottom line is that none of us know how it all began exactly;
but my common sense already knows that all complex systems are the result of careful design and not random events </div></div>

My friend, I don't know if I saw where you gave answer to my question. You already told us what you DON'T think happened and now I want to know what you think happened. If you don't know then you are agnostic, right?

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

in my opinion the theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life...

</div></div>
and you are right.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
it baffles the mind that people use the evolution theory to attempt to debunk the theory of creation;

</div></div>

which is what exactly? what predictions does this theory of creation make? what has been tested? what has been applied to the every day real world?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i simply do not think men and apes evolved from a common creature which in turn evolved from a creature which came out of the sea &amp; grew legs;
my question is- WHY ARE THERE STILL FISH AND APES???
why did they not also evolve?
</div></div>

I repeat. Man and primates share a genetic set of scars. There is only one way to explain this. You have not provided an explanation.

Also, I've shown you that when organisms evolve they don't necessarily mean that their ancestors die. So a fish whose future progeny mutate into a new fish and evolve may still breed others of it's species. Would a chart help you understand this, if you see it visually?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jah_yute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
and if that's the case, why are there no intermediary humanoid-half ape or half fish creatures to be found?
they would surely exist if all the other branches which supposedly evolved from them are still co-existing with them
</div></div>

They find them all the time. They just found a fish with legs. It happens.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
so how does evolution explain the origin of life? IT DOES NOT. it attempts to do so by using scientific hypotheses and has become accepted by those who consider scientific theories to be infallible;
</div></div>

It's not accepted until it's proven. That's the point. Lay people obviously get confused, but that is ignorance. Experiments in ABIOGENESIS are ocurring and have shown promising results- namely the spontaneous formation of organic molecules is possible, observable, and testable.

I know I'm not writing in Chinese.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but consider this before you do:
scientists once had elaborate theories to prove that blacks were inferior and closer on the &quot;evolution chain&quot; to apes...
therefore whites were &quot;more evolved&quot; hence superior...
and people held on to these theories for centuries- some still do; false science is a dangerous thing on this earth...
</div></div>

and something for you to consider is that it is SCIENCE which corrects these problems. Because that is it's nature. A Scientist, good or bad, will posit a hypothesis or theory- others will test it, independently, and if they achieve the same results they go from there.

don't confuse pseudoscience with real science. sadly my friend that is exactly what you are doing here, thinking that ID or Creation is an actual theory.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
the bottom line is that none of us know how it all began exactly;
but my common sense already knows that all complex systems are the result of careful design and not random events </div></div>

common sense doesn't make a computer. you don't need common sense for this issue, you need something scientifically methodical, based on accurate observations, tests, and logic.

[Derek]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ABIOGENESIS</div></div>

Well that's it then. I'm totally convinced. There was an explosion and I evolved from apes.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ABIOGENESIS</div></div>

Well that's it then. I'm totally convinced. There was an explosion and I evolved from apes. </div></div>

let me ask you a question. let's say someone you knew was the victim of a crime. DNA evidence proved a suspect was responsible. All there was, was DNA evidence. The person's blood or some hairs were found all over the crime scene.

Would you accept that evidence? Of course you would. You would be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the perpetrator was caught. DNA evidence is used without a shadow of a doubt to exonerate and to convict people of their crimes or innocence every single day.

I don't know why it is proving difficult for you to realize it is the SAME science.

In fact, your entire modern world is practically intrinsically linked to evolution being correct. The food you eat. The medicine. The healthcare. Lots and lots of the computer technology.

Ignorance is a shield my friend, against this being true, only for so long.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ABIOGENESIS</div></div>

Well that's it then. I'm totally convinced. There was an explosion and I evolved from apes. </div></div>

ps. you follow me on why your phone example is not logic right?

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

Derek, please don't squeeze past my questions, that is, if you don't mind.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

By the way, Monk, thanks for the videos. Very interesting even though I have to admit (for me) it does not get interesting until the 5th part in the series.

I am almost CLUELESS when it comes to evolution but I am learning and the more I learn the more it makes sense because I am FINALLY giving it a chance and not letting deterring catch phrases cloud my mind.

Again thanks. I'm going to get back to watching them.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way, Monk, thanks for the videos. Very interesting even though I have to admit (for me) it does not get interesting until the 5th part in the series.

I am almost CLUELESS when it comes to evolution but I am learning and the more I learn the more it makes sense because I am FINALLY giving it a chance and not letting deterring catch phrases cloud my mind.

Again thanks. I'm going to get back to watching them. </div></div>

thanks mutty.

I agree they are a little bit dry, but I don't know how they can sex this stuff up to make it palatable. however, as you see the rewards are fireworks when it comes to increasing your understanding of what the actual issues are, and how easy it becomes to see how misled others are getting by slight turns of phrase.

in the NOVA special, which is a court case in which Intelligent Design/Creationism was put against Evolution, the scientists themselves bemoan their poor track record - as a community - in disseminating this information in digestable packets to non scientists in the general population.

it's like people looking at a map, and seeing L.A right next to NY, and saying I don't agree with this map, without unfolding the damn thing and looking at it for what it is.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
my question is- WHY ARE THERE STILL FISH AND APES???
why did they not also evolve?
</div></div>

Jah_yout- here is an image which will display for you why there are still fish, and apes.

In this chart, substitute bacteria for your fish, and you'll see how evolution can occur, while the original parent of the various forks and branches still procreate. this is generally because organism adapt through various natural pressures- we see this all the time. Hawks which can pick out white mice pressure white mice- as white mice populations continue throughout generations some white mice might carry a genetic mutation which makes their fur dark. These mice will not be suffering the same pressure from hawks. They've just adapted. They've just <span style="font-style: italic">evolved.</span> Hawks may also evolve, some hawks may adapt vision more acute and can pick out darker colored mice.

Anyway, here is the picture.



so as you can see, while all these other species evolved from bacteria, we still have bacteria. so for fish, so for ape, etc.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

Parts 9-11 REALLY puts some serious damage on creationism a.k.a &quot;intelligent design.&quot; I mean they laid them out.