evolutionary theory wrang footprints

[R_C]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

This is a very interesting discussion that I have been taking in from the balcony.

Anyway, my only contribution at this point is to make note of the fact that implicit in any discussion of a first cause or "where things came from" is the idea that there was a 'beginning of time' and 'nothingness' before that.

These concepts are a human invention. What we actually see in the world around us is a universe that is in constant transformation from one state to another.

Carry on folks.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a very interesting discussion that I have been taking in from the balcony.

Anyway, my only contribution at this point is to make note of the fact that <span style="font-weight: bold">implicit in any discussion of a first cause or &quot;where things came from&quot; is the idea that there was a 'beginning of time' and 'nothingness' before that.

These concepts are a human invention.</span> What we actually see in the world around us is a universe that is in constant transformation from one state to another.

Carry on folks. </div></div>

I found that out a few years ago. Great point!

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a very interesting discussion that I have been taking in from the balcony.

Anyway, my only contribution at this point is to make note of the fact that implicit in any discussion of a first cause or &quot;where things came from&quot; is the idea that there was a 'beginning of time' and 'nothingness' before that.

These concepts are a human invention. What we actually see in the world around us is a universe that is in constant transformation from one state to another.

Carry on folks. </div></div>

did you enjoy the hawkings lecture rollincalf? it touches on some of that. it's hard to believe that there are people in this world who can work out some of the necessary equations to describe this stuff in their mind like that lol.

[jah_yout]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So from the looks of this, everyone in here is an agnostic. The Bible's account is wrong or at least questionable and so are the scientists, right? So apparently no one in here knows where the hell anything came from? No clues, no ability to trace back?

For example, Jah Yout, I would really love to hear your opinion if the Bible's account is allegorical and you don't believe in evolution. You're apparently emphatic that neither satisfies your taste, so what's YOUR take?</div></div>

well for me it is not one or the other...IMO the bible's creation story as told in genesis is allegorical &amp; not to be taken literally...
in my opinion the theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life...it baffles the mind that people use the evolution theory to attempt to debunk the theory of creation;
i simply do not think men and apes evolved from a common creature which in turn evolved from a creature which came out of the sea &amp; grew legs;
my question is- WHY ARE THERE STILL FISH AND APES???
why did they not also evolve?
and if that's the case, why are there no intermediary humanoid-half ape or half fish creatures to be found?
they would surely exist if all the other branches which supposedly evolved from them are still co-existing with them


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Finally, just to put something out there, evolution does NOT concern itself with the origin of the universe (something came from nothing) as it is often misunderstood by extrapolation. It concerns itself with the origins of life. </div></div>

so how does evolution explain the origin of life? IT DOES NOT. it attempts to do so by using scientific hypotheses and has become accepted by those who consider scientific theories to be infallible;
but consider this before you do:
scientists once had elaborate theories to prove that blacks were inferior and closer on the &quot;evolution chain&quot; to apes...
therefore whites were &quot;more evolved&quot; hence superior...
and people held on to these theories for centuries- some still do; false science is a dangerous thing on this earth...
the bottom line is that none of us know how it all began exactly;
but my common sense already knows that all complex systems are the result of careful design and not random events </div></div>

My friend, I don't know if I saw where you gave answer to my question. You already told us what you DON'T think happened and now I want to know what you think happened. If you don't know then you are agnostic, right? </div></div>

no one knows for sure what happened...i don't care about labels...
common sense tells me my brain is not the result of random particles coming together out of chaos into a complex neurological system...
the great scientists still can not bring the dead back to life...life is far too complex to explain by way of random occurrence...as far as evolution as proposed by darwin- i see many holes in aspects of the theory...we simply have a difference of opinion as no one can prove life appeared by a random accident that produced fish which became all life any more than they can prove creation...and by creation i don't mean religion...the way that nova video dumbs it down into darwin/evolution vs. bible/creationism...it's broader than that

[R_C]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

The last lecture I saw/listened to was the one he did in Geneva last year (see here ). Is that the one you are referring to ?

I agree...we could do an entire thread on Hawkins !

He's supposed to be at Caltech in March..barring illness.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">no one knows for sure what happened</span>...i don't care about labels...
common sense tells me my brain is not the result of random particles coming together out of chaos into a complex neurological system...
the great scientists still can not bring the dead back to life...life is far too complex to explain by way of random occurrence...as far as evolution as proposed by darwin- i see many holes in aspects of the theory...we simply have a difference of opinion as no one can prove life appeared by a random accident that produced fish which became all life any more than they can prove creation...and by creation i don't mean religion...the way that nova video dumbs it down into darwin/evolution vs. bible/creationism...it's broader than that </div></div>

Fair enough, Yout. So I take it you have nothing in mind you attribute &quot;life&quot; to? If you do, why do you choose that creator over an unknown one?

[jah_yout]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
my question is- WHY ARE THERE STILL FISH AND APES???
why did they not also evolve?
</div></div>

Jah_yout- here is an image which will display for you why there are still fish, and apes.

In this chart, substitute bacteria for your fish, and you'll see how evolution can occur, while the original parent of the various forks and branches still procreate. this is generally because organism adapt through various natural pressures- we see this all the time. Hawks which can pick out white mice pressure white mice- as white mice populations continue throughout generations some white mice might carry a genetic mutation which makes their fur dark. These mice will not be suffering the same pressure from hawks. They've just adapted. They've just <span style="font-style: italic">evolved.</span> Hawks may also evolve, some hawks may adapt vision more acute and can pick out darker colored mice.

Anyway, here is the picture.



so as you can see, while all these other species evolved from bacteria, we still have bacteria. so for fish, so for ape, etc. </div></div>

so it would be fair to say they are at different stages of their evolutionary journey; so out of these millions of species some intermediaries would be found at a fairly common rate, no?

and why did some choose to evolve while others did not?
why do fish still suffocate in air?
why man still drown?
shouldn't we have evolved past that by now? i would like to be able to fly...why have we not evolved that?
why can't we reproduce with in any of these creatures we supposedly evolved from?

[jah_yout]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">no one knows for sure what happened</span>...i don't care about labels...
common sense tells me my brain is not the result of random particles coming together out of chaos into a complex neurological system...
the great scientists still can not bring the dead back to life...life is far too complex to explain by way of random occurrence...as far as evolution as proposed by darwin- i see many holes in aspects of the theory...we simply have a difference of opinion as no one can prove life appeared by a random accident that produced fish which became all life any more than they can prove creation...and by creation i don't mean religion...the way that nova video dumbs it down into darwin/evolution vs. bible/creationism...it's broader than that </div></div>

Fair enough, Yout. So I take it you have nothing in mind you attribute &quot;life&quot; to? If you do, why do you choose that creator over an unknown one? </div></div>

whatever it came from is obviously incredibly clever; the brain alone is a fascinating computer;
it is a mystery but i am more inclined to go with a mysterious architect than a random spontaneous occurrence...i've never seen life come from dead matter except by this mysterious force which started life...you notice it only comes from those which had it before?
or how when it is lost can not be brought back?
wild, isn't it?

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
whatever it came from is obviously incredibly clever; the brain alone is a fascinating computer;
it is a mystery but i am more inclined to go with <span style="font-weight: bold">a mysterious architect</span> than a random spontaneous occurrence...i've never seen life come from dead matter except by this mysterious force which started life...you notice it only comes from those which had it before?
or how when it is lost can not be brought back?
wild, isn't it? </div></div>

I do too, but this architect, as far as I concerned now, is faceless and nameless, however, Rollin Calf made the point that &quot;beginning&quot; is primarily a human invention as a result, something our finite mids can conceive. Beyond that we are sometimes too vain to think the universe is not all about us nor revolves around us and our limited understanding.

Evolution, explaining the origin of life is making more and more sense to me, but your questions are my questions also and I find them valid.

[jah_yout]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
whatever it came from is obviously incredibly clever; the brain alone is a fascinating computer;
it is a mystery but i am more inclined to go with <span style="font-weight: bold">a mysterious architect</span> than a random spontaneous occurrence...i've never seen life come from dead matter except by this mysterious force which started life...you notice it only comes from those which had it before?
or how when it is lost can not be brought back?
wild, isn't it? </div></div>

I do too, but this architect, as far as I concerned now, is faceless and nameless, however, Rollin Calf made the point that &quot;beginning&quot; is primarily a human invention as a result, something our finite mids can conceive. Beyond that we are sometimes too vain to think the universe is not all about us nor revolves around us and our limited understanding.

Evolution, explaining the origin of life is making more and more sense to me, but your questions are my questions also and I find them valid.

</div></div>

and intelligent design making more sense to me;
yes it is true we do not yet comprehend the exact form of any such architect- as evidenced in our folly in destroying the earth &amp; seeking foreign planets to explore for life...
so let me ask you...the cell is the basic organism in life...do you have any theory on how the cell came to be?
it's the zillion dollar question:
what caused the life force in it?
evolution is later, because for evolution to happen life has to first exist...
do you have any theory on what caused the life force (independent movement, thought &amp; functions) to appear on earth?

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and intelligent design making more sense to me;
yes it is true we do not yet comprehend the exact form of any such architect- as evidenced in our folly in destroying the earth &amp; seeking foreign planets to explore for life...
so let me ask you...the cell is the basic organism in life...do you have any theory on how the cell came to be?
it's the zillion dollar question:
what caused the life force in it?
evolution is later, because for evolution to happen life has to first exist...
do you have any theory on what caused the life force (independent movement, thought &amp; functions) to appear on earth? </div></div>

&quot;Intelligent design&quot; is actually more confusing to me because amidst the design is so much chaos, but I realize, for the Christian believer, that is blamed on &quot;sin,&quot; indicating that man has wrested some level of control of this planet from an all-powerful being but I digress.

I have no answer for those other questions at the moment, but because I don't does not automatically default to &quot;must have been intelligent design.&quot; I'm still doing my research on such things so the verdict is still out for me.

[johnnycakes]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

Monk,
I am just an occasional visitor to this forum and just now read the entire thread from start to finish.
I had to laugh when I read how hard you tried to get the people you were arguing with to view the videos you took the time to post.

I predict that with maybe one exception, they either will not read them or reject them outright without posting an argument on the specifics.

I have noticed much the same thing when it comes to arguing political/social topics at the International forum.
Post a scholarly and scientifically valid piece as you did and the true believers will not, CANNOT read it.
Post links to historically accurate articles as I do and the result is the same with people who that same unblinking faith in their government(s).

The situation seems to be that they dare not question their beliefs and will not consider any information given them which conflicts with what they already believe which turns out to be the equivalent of a flat Earth..

I admire your persistence and agree with your position.

[R_C]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..so let me ask you...the cell is the basic organism in life...do you have any theory on how the cell came to be? it's the zillion dollar question: what caused the life force in it? do you have any theory on what caused the life force (independent movement, thought &amp; functions) to appear on earth? </div></div>

Well JY, I don't know of any one theory that is universally accepted by those who work in the field...it is a &quot;gap&quot; in our knowledge. How we fill that gap is where we divide..

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a very interesting discussion that I have been taking in from the balcony.

Anyway, my only contribution at this point is to make note of the fact that implicit in any discussion of a first cause or &quot;where things came from&quot; is the idea that there was a 'beginning of time' and 'nothingness' before that.

These concepts are a human invention. What we actually see in the world around us is a universe that is in constant transformation from one state to another.

Carry on folks. </div></div>
Good point, &quot;... around us is a universe that is in constant transformation from one state to another.&quot;

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you have any theory on how the cell came to be?
it's the zillion dollar question:
what caused the life force in it?
evolution is later, because for evolution to happen life has to first exist...
do you have any theory on what caused the life force (independent movement, thought &amp; functions) to appear on earth? </div></div>
There was an article about Prussian Blue the other day that touches on your question JY &gt; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1214121451.htm

And there is a famous experiment from the 50's that goes right to your question&gt; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%...rey_experiment The Miller–Urey experiment.