evolutionary theory wrang footprints

[jah_yout]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">we can. we can <span style="text-decoration: underline">guess</span> presently as to how life <span style="text-decoration: underline">probably</span> began</span>- look at the video about abiogenesis. we can certainly say a lot about how life took shape after it began, and that's why we can say there was no design, certainly there is no ethical, moral, loving creator.

consider- without evolution you would have NO way to know if adam and eve were real or not.</div></div>


did i see the words 'guess' and 'probably' in there?
again, i am not defending 'intelligent design' in terms of religious texts...ethics &amp; morals has nothing to do with this argument...the question is on the origin of life;
no matter how many essays you post, you still don't know exactly how life began, which means you have no knowledge on whether that origin was 'designed' or it was 'accidental', so there is no way you can &quot;say there was no design&quot;;
'evolution' is another matter; and while i do state that species can evolve over time, i don't mean by becoming completely different species- evolving from reptile to mammal-- from simple creatures into complex ones, a.k.a. fish crawled out of the sea, became mammals which became apes &amp; humans....

but obviously we will come away from this still holding onto our respective positions...

great debate though ...

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">we can. we can <span style="text-decoration: underline">guess</span> presently as to how life <span style="text-decoration: underline">probably</span> began</span>- look at the video about abiogenesis. we can certainly say a lot about how life took shape after it began, and that's why we can say there was no design, certainly there is no ethical, moral, loving creator.

consider- without evolution you would have NO way to know if adam and eve were real or not.</div></div>



did i see the words 'guess' and 'probably' in there?
again, i am not defending 'intelligent design' in terms of religious texts...ethics &amp; morals has nothing to do with this argument...the question is on the origin of life;
no matter how many essays you post, you still don't know exactly how life began, which means you have no knowledge on whether that origin was 'designed' or it was 'accidental', so there is no way you can &quot;say there was no design&quot;;
'evolution' is another matter; and while i do state that species can evolve over time, i don't mean by becoming completely different species- evolving from reptile to mammal-- from simple creatures into complex ones, a.k.a. fish crawled out of the sea, became mammals which became apes &amp; humans....

but obviously we will come away from this still holding onto our respective positions...

great debate though ...


</div></div>

intelligent design IS religion.

if you name an intelligently 'designed' something or other, what do you then have to say about the things which were stupidly designed?

I never claimed to actually know how life began, that is not currently possible. But yes, we can take educated guesses. I'm just saying it's more than probable that life was formed without a creator, due mostly to the fact that in experiments we can see how that could have happened.

and a creator begs a lot of problematic questions.

so there's no longer any appeal to mystery that is necessary to explain how life could have happened.

you are dodging the issue of evolution, my friend, because it is uncomfortable to you and your world view. you already accept it's facts, even if you don't realize it, simply by living, eating and breathing. If you enjoy fruit, you're accepting that evolution brought you that food to your table.

if you were ever vaccinated, or know to wash your hands often, this information comes to you by way of evolution.

mutty just posted a fantastic video which I hope you will watch.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a video from one of my favorite YouTubers. He is extremely eloquent and knowledgeable and I suggest giving him a listen as he tries to clear up some common misconceptions about evolution complete with appealing examples. Oh, interestingly enough, a Jamaican is mentioned in the video.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vss1VKN2rf8"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vss1VKN2rf8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>

fantastic. this guy is great.

'rhinopuss.'

hilarious. love his vids and will subscribe.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a video from one of my favorite YouTubers. He is extremely eloquent and knowledgeable and I suggest giving him a listen as he tries to clear up some common misconceptions about evolution complete with appealing examples. Oh, interestingly enough, a Jamaican is mentioned in the video.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vss1VKN2rf8"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vss1VKN2rf8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>

fantastic. this guy is great.

'rhinopuss.'

hilarious. love his vids and will subscribe. </div></div>

Yes, he really is. His videos are classic, well done, eloquent and informative.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">great debate though ...
</div></div>

I concur.

[Mutty]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

Here's yet a another GREAT video. Eloquent, visually captivating, and informative. I suggest watching this ESPECIALLY <span style="font-weight: bold">Derek</span> as it starts out with a similar question you have asked:

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup#p/u/7/-h9XntsSEro

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

another great video mutty, much better than the way I was trying to present some of the facts of evolution, i think especially poignant is knowing the basics of how the arguments get structured and how they have come to be. no knives to a gun fight kind of thing. I think too a stumbling block is understanding that as a part of the scientific method, falsification is very important and that is a poorly understood term.

it always strikes me as ironic that very often people will say they &quot;disagree&quot; with evolution, but don't see that they are benefitting from other people's understanding, and <span style="font-style: italic">application</span>, of that very theory, and that if evolution wasn't true, we'd all be dead of plague. From a perspective of seeing it this way, they themselves would have to realize they really had it wrong the whole time. it can cause a terrific readjustment, and I'd even say a sense of freedom.

[Boricua_papi]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

I can't say it any better than the late Dr. Carl Sagan. The Theory of Evolution and the mechanisms that drive it including natural selection and genetic drift have been verified as very real processes by a mountain of peer reviewed studies since the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species that act on all organisms even today.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5Q55z6EsL8M"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5Q55z6EsL8M" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

[neutral]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

My question is....why...?

Why did life evolve...whats it all about,presumably we are still evolving,...into what....?

[Boricua_papi]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

No one is certain as to why life evolved...it may simply be an inevitability of the initial conditions the cosmos possessed at the moment that the Big Bang occurred. We, as a species, are still evolving physiologically but the fact that we may, at some point, may alter our own genetic makeup, makes future predictions problematic.

[neutral]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B_P</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one is certain as to why life evolved...it may simply be an inevitability of the initial conditions the cosmos possessed at the moment that the Big Bang occurred. We, as a species, are still evolving physiologically but the fact that we may, at some point, may alter our own genetic makeup, makes future predictions problematic. </div></div>

Well,I think its easy to predict what we are likely to evolve into given what we are at the moment,....I predict that in another billion years we will have evolved into a species unable to communicate verbally with each other.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Natral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question is....why...?

Why did life evolve...whats it all about,presumably we are still evolving,...into what....? </div></div>

you are evolved already from what came before you- in very small ways. what do you think evolution predicts for humans natral?

it's nothing you can see on a grand scale over the course of say, your lifetime, if you are looking for humans to become rhinopusses you'll probably never see that. Evolution requires <span style="font-style: italic">pressures</span> and mutations. Our natural pressures have sort of been relegated, we're pretty well adapted and have a good niche- we are more than ever the masters of our environment.

but if you could live for a few million years, you would see what humanity was like, and where it went.

we can say 'why' life evolved, and how- because we now know enough about these processes and have actually been using them.

life evolved due to various environmental pressures selecting those traits exhibited in individuals which increased or did not hamper their survival.

that's the only why, really. everything else as far as our purpose etc, that is an answer that is often offered when someone says why and what they really mean is what is the meaning of life, is subject to our own personal wrestling match with the archetypes of life...and that is where myth steps in, as the mythic system when properly understood, delivers those answers through cultural contexts.

[Derek]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

monk, either an explosion, matter, stars, planets, creatures and us appeared out of nothing - just happened - or not.

As I said earlier, I'll go with the illogical Creator rather than the illogical scientific, 'out of nothing' explanation.

[rudemonk]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

but out of &quot;nothing&quot; is not illogical. it could be just as likely that the universe is a constant.

at the point of singularity nothing can actually be really said about it from a scientific standpoint because all laws break down.

considering actually, that we grant your premise, your creator's creator is then still just as 'illogical.' surely you see the absurdity of this position. just substitute 'creator' for universe and you will see it immediately.

it's fine if it helps order your world or make you feel comfortable, but from a logical standpoint, you've actually still succeeded in saying nothing.

saying a creator created the universe out of 'nothing' is like saying the universe is on the back of an infinite stack of turtles. it's meaningless when carried to it's logical conclusion.

this leads to the metaphysical positing of the always universe without creation, which it seems like some models of cosmogenesis also predict.

[Derek]

Re: evolutionary theory wrang footprints

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but out of &quot;nothing&quot; is not illogical. it could be just as likely that the universe is a constant.

<span style="font-weight: bold">at the point of singularity nothing can actually be really said about it from a scientific standpoint</span> because all laws break down.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah! laws break down. In other words scientists don't have a blasted clue about what's going on, or indeed an explanation!
(Was the point of singularity created or did we just happen to have one?)</div></div>

considering actually, that we grant your premise, your <span style="font-weight: bold">creator's creator is then still just as 'illogical.'</span> surely you see the absurdity of this position. just substitute 'creator' for universe and you will see it immediately.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. But no more illogical than this 'out of nothing' theory.</div></div>
it's fine if it helps order your world or make you feel comfortable, but from a logical standpoint, you've actually still succeeded in saying nothing.

<span style="font-weight: bold">saying a creator created the universe out of 'nothing' is like saying the universe is on the back of an infinite stack of turtles. it's meaningless when carried to it's logical conclusion.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just like the scientific it just happened.</div></div>

this leads to the metaphysical positing of the always universe without creation, which it seems like some models of cosmogenesis also predict. </div></div>