So 48 Years Later...

[halfwaytree]

... and what has Jamaican independence accomplished?

We have been independent for four years longer than Barbados. So how come we seem to sink while they can swim?

[Magician]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Jamaica's independence 48 years ago has accomplished many great things.
It's normal to be self critical, and the country is still far from what the forefathers have envisioned. At the same time, you can't really say the ship is sinking, nor that Barbados is swimming. Barbados may be floating a little higher, but neither is swimming.

I think some of the answers can be found in todays message by the Prime Minister.
"Opportunities missed, mistakes made, wrong turns..."

A large part of the equation that is stiffling Jamaica's progress is the political system inherited from the mother country that is prone to abuse. Jamaicans have no way to elect a leader directly. They are forced to trust the judgement of the MPs they elect, who in turn select a leader of their party. This has resulted in an endless cycle of recycled ideas, and lack of vision and integrity.

At the same time, it has to be recognised that despite the political, social and economic turbulance, two generations of proud Jamaicans emerged that made a huge impact in the world. Jamaica's influence in music and sports is disproportional to it's population size.

If you ask all of the 6.8 billion people on Earth to name one famous Jamaican, and one famous Bajan, I bet you that at least 5 billion will identify a prominent Yard man, and very few a Bajan. Do you know any prominent persons from Barbados?

So while we may not have reached the ideals of nationhood, and at times it may seem that we're not even headed in the right direction, I think it's not fair to discount independence and the last 48 years as a lost cause.

We should be thankful that apart from the crime, people can live together in peace, with no ethnic or religious violence, no hate, no civil war. There are no countries aiming or launching weapons in our direction, and we're not attacking others through conventional war or shipping terrorists abroad.

Two of the countries that gained independence in 1962 are Uganda and Rwanda. Compared to them, history has been kind to Jamaica. Have to thank God for that.

[remo]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

I hate when people compare jamaica an barbados,barbados an manchester is di same size with about the same amount of people bout 200,000................
all though dem seh barbados have more funnee people

[Wahalla]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Education the same..
Debt increased
Sence of entitlement has increased.. This is a knife that cuts both ways..
Police performanvce the same
Electrification increased
more man own cyar, mobile, ha gal...
infrastructure outside killsome and tourist areas have not been ivested in.. A friend of mine pointed this out that the public areas and buildings are not improved....
Better housign..this is from private investment
more garbage...

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Education the same..(education is a thousand folds better.
Jamaica had one high school per paraish.
Munro and Hampton is one school. )

Debt increased ( better. Jamaica started with zero reserves.
They have about 2. Billion us )

Sence of entitlement has increased.. This is a knife that cuts both ways..
Police performanvce the same
Electrification increased
more man own cyar, mobile, ha gal...
infrastructure outside killsome and tourist areas have not been ivested in.. A friend of mine pointed this out that the public areas and buildings are not improved....

(Only a few main roads outside of kingston wass paved.)
Better housign..this is from private investment
more garbage... </div></div>
The USA was no better after it's first 100 years although it had slavery.
It

[sistactry]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica's independence 48 years ago has accomplished many great things.
It's normal to be self critical, and the country is still far from what the forefathers have envisioned. At the same time, you can't really say the ship is sinking, nor that Barbados is swimming. Barbados may be floating a little higher, but neither is swimming.

I think some of the answers can be found in todays message by the Prime Minister.
&quot;Opportunities missed, mistakes made, wrong turns...&quot;

A large part of the equation that is stiffling Jamaica's progress is the political system inherited from the mother country that is prone to abuse. Jamaicans have no way to elect a leader directly. They are forced to trust the judgement of the MPs they elect, who in turn select a leader of their party. This has resulted in an endless cycle of recycled ideas, and lack of vision and integrity.

At the same time, it has to be recognised that despite the political, social and economic turbulance, two generations of proud Jamaicans emerged that made a huge impact in the world. Jamaica's influence in music and sports is disproportional to it's population size.

If you ask all of the 6.8 billion people on Earth to name one famous Jamaican, and one famous Bajan, I bet you that at least 5 billion will identify a prominent Yard man, and very few a Bajan. Do you know any prominent persons from Barbados?

So while we may not have reached the ideals of nationhood, and at times it may seem that we're not even headed in the right direction, I think it's not fair to discount independence and the last 48 years as a lost cause.

We should be thankful that apart from the crime, people can live together in peace, with no ethnic or religious violence, no hate, no civil war. There are no countries aiming or launching weapons in our direction, and we're not attacking others through conventional war or shipping terrorists abroad.

Two of the countries that gained independence in 1962 are Uganda and Rwanda. Compared to them, history has been kind to Jamaica. Have to thank God for that. </div></div>


luvv it......lite it up Magic, we have come a long way, and we do recognize we have a longgg way to go, God bless Jamaica~

nuh whey nuh better dan yard!!!!

[queenb]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Magic, I beg to differ. I drove all over Barbados, and the quality of life is much better than in Jamaica, although their island isn't nearly as lush or as large. The crime rate is lower, and the island on the whole safer.

For some reason, England kept a stronger presence in Barbados, while Jamaica was abandoned; kept in the Commonwealth in name only without the strong cultural support. The result is a higher educated, more loyal to the island populace. True Bajans go abroad for higher education, but many go to Jamaica to UWI-Mona then return to Barbados. I don't know about the government there, whether it has the same colorism/classism structure, but somehow I doubt it. We got a tour around from a local, who was white and proudly claimed descent from criminal past, while proudly being a common worker in Barbados.

I don't know what Jamaia did to invoke the ire of Great Britain, but whatever it was has had a profound effect on the development of the natioin.

[diabolical_Tanya]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

QueenBee

I don't really think it is the ire of GB that has Ja where it is currently.

My opinion is that what has hurt JA the most is the brain drain/Farrin mind.

Too many of our great and brilliant minds left to seek greener pastures. and left the dregs/whatleff to run the country.

that is why all the big industries Hotels are owned by farrinas and all the money is going to USA and Spain leaving our GDP to rely on remittance.

All those barrel children growing up with out parental guidance......

Manley in the 70's running out the investors who were born Jamaican and would have at the very least have continued to pay taxes.....

Mi sure smaddy soon come &quot;give the true perspective&quot; BUT that is my opinion

[Magician]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kept in the Commonwealth in name only without the strong cultural support.</div></div>

Queen, can you explain what you mean by this lack of 'cultural' support from Britain? Not sure what you mean by that.

Agree with Tanya. I think the 70's was a turning point, and a lot of mistakes were made and opportunities missed at
that time.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Before manley run the investers out in the.70's,Where were they investing in the country?
The investors who were present before are very much there today.
Local investers are I. The areas they were before Manley era.

Jamaica suffers brain drain because There us a disdain. Between the economic elite and the educated.

The invester class, those who control the real funds nrcessary for large investments will not allow the educated access.

The invester class are only intrested in continued control of the economy.

They only need black Jamaicans as servants.

Fancy label servants but servants anyway.

That is How it is in Barbados too, but bring so small sand eight a more subservient black population it is more secure fir tgd elite.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diabolical_Tanya</div><div class="ubbcode-body">QueenBee

I don't really think it is the ire of GB that has Ja where it is currently.

My opinion is that what has hurt JA the most is the brain drain/Farrin mind.

Too many of our great and brilliant minds left to seek greener pastures. and left the dregs/whatleff to run the country.

that is why all the big industries Hotels are owned by farrinas and all the money is going to USA and Spain leaving our GDP to rely on remittance.

All those barrel children growing up with out parental guidance......

Manley in the 70's running out the investors who were born Jamaican and would have at the very least have continued to pay taxes.....

Mi sure smaddy soon come &quot;give the true perspective&quot; BUT that is my opinion </div></div>

[queenb]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kept in the Commonwealth in name only without the strong cultural support.</div></div>

Queen, can you explain what you mean by this lack of 'cultural' support from Britain? Not sure what you mean by that.

Agree with Tanya. I think the 70's was a turning point, and a lot of mistakes were made and opportunities missed at
that time. </div></div>

I don't know, Magic. I just observed that Barbados was more &quot;British&quot; feeling than Jamaica. Jamaica seems to be left in the hands of robbers who are draining the lifeblood of the country, similar to the crooked politians found in Haiti and also based on the same classist system. This system is supported by a systematic criminal bunch of police who are similar to the &quot;gunmen&quot; in the inner city, but whose murderers have the strength of the legal system behind it.

[franksterr]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Jamaica is much better off, than before independence.
We have progress in almost ever way.
There is no comparison....NONE.

You name it and we probable doing better?

To name a few
energy
cooking gas
Refrigeration
Roads/transportation
piped water
food
school
employment
clothing/shoes
# professionals in all professions
Housing
electrification
social mobility
literacy
Standards
etc ...on and on

[Wahalla]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

I agree with the social mobility... that has increased by far.. shoes and clothes ?????? I think that is it better ???? Manufacturing base has been destroyed..

I differ with Doc education.. there are more high schools.(Doc wasnt technical highscholls and jounoir secondaries before independence ???). but literasy I dont beleive has increased.. it is at 85 %... Was it not 85 % at independence.. I recall that number being bandied about at the start of Jamal.. but my memory may be faulty.. .where doc can help me has the % of the total cohort who have 5 o'levels or csces increased??? This was an issue that Seaga highlighted for years.... And I am not arguing I am querying as getting this right is too important for posturing.

Crime has increased.. and that sense of entitlement.. We heve not bought into the goverment

[Wahalla]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

The attitude that is Jamaican is what is at the root of violence as well as our creativity.... Bajans will never have the confrontational attitude that is Jamaican.. it makes us terrible at service but brilliant at art and entertainmain. it makes us terrible workers but great entranuers... Barbados may have the numbers that makes it seem better but there are in tangibles that make Jamaica superior.. Bajan tourism is safe secure almost banal. you cant get away from it...Jamaica it will never be as integrated as it is into the bajan psche...

Our culture has prevailed.. it has done so by be constantly evolving and metaphorhing.. While others fear yanki hegmony, Jamaica has influenced yanki hegemony more than the other way.. we export our culture, import their culture then change it and re export it ... Jamaica is unique in that sense.. Bolt I mean the man made Jamaican cuisane as a talking point!

I note bajans use jamaica as a yard stick we tend not to use Bajans as directional lodestone.. Jamaicans will prevail or be destroyed.. I beleive we will prevail.. but from internal changes, not outside influences....

[franksterr]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with the social mobility... that has increased by far.. shoes and clothes ?????? I think that is it better ???? Manufacturing base has been destroyed..

I differ with Doc education.. there are more high schools.(Doc wasnt technical highscholls and jounoir secondaries before independence ???). but literasy I dont beleive has increased.. it is at 85 %... Was it not 85 % at independence.. I recall that number being bandied about at the start of Jamal.. but my memory may be faulty.. .where doc can help me has the % of the total cohort who have 5 o'levels or csces increased??? This was an issue that Seaga highlighted for years.... And I am not arguing I am querying as getting this right is too important for posturing.

Crime has increased.. and that sense of entitlement.. We heve not bought into the goverment </div></div>

Literacy was at 1% for dark skin(black African) Jamaican and at about 10% for light or brown(racially mixed) skin Jamaicans