So 48 Years Later...

**Wahalla** · 08-10-2010, 01:18 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with the social mobility... that has increased by far.. shoes and clothes ?????? I think that is it better ???? Manufacturing base has been destroyed..

I differ with Doc education.. there are more high schools.(Doc wasnt technical highscholls and jounoir secondaries before independence ???). but literasy I dont beleive has increased.. it is at 85 %... Was it not 85 % at independence.. I recall that number being bandied about at the start of Jamal.. but my memory may be faulty.. .where doc can help me has the % of the total cohort who have 5 o'levels or csces increased??? This was an issue that Seaga highlighted for years.... And I am not arguing I am querying as getting this right is too important for posturing.

Crime has increased.. and that sense of entitlement.. We heve not bought into the goverment </div></div>

Literacy was at 1% for dark skin(black African) Jamaican and at about 10% for light or brown(racially mixed) skin Jamaicans </div></div>

There would be a difference, but it certainly was never at 1% for any sector of society at independence.. I know that at 1940's it was at least 60%.. royal commision at wwii... so by any measure that could nto be 1%..for black Jamaicans.. at 90% of the population even if all the rest of society was 100% literate then it could not have been 1%.

**franksterr** · 08-10-2010, 01:49 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Wahalla

I hope you can read between the lines and infer the actual state of affairs.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The educational system was slow to reach most Jamaicans until the early 1970s. Even after the abolition of slavery, education remained uncommon; early efforts were conducted mostly by Christian churches. In the late 1800s, some secondary schools created in Kingston served primarily the light-skinned elite. The limited availability of schools, especially beyond the primary level, and the elitist curriculum intensified class divisions in colonial society. A dual system of education, characterized by governmentrun primary schools and private secondary schools, <span style="font-weight: bold">effectively barred a large part of the population from attaining more than functional literacy.</span> In addition, much of the content of formal education in Jamaica was largely irrelevant for students unable to attend universities in Britain.<span style="font-weight: bold"> In 1943, fewer than 1 percent of blacks and only 9 percent of the mixed races attended secondary school.</span>

The start of early self-government in 1944 finally cleared the way for increased funding for education. From the establishment of the Ministry of Education in 1953 to independence in 1962, a national education policy was developed that expanded the scope of education and redefined educational priorities. During the 1960s, the major goal of the government in the field of education was the construction of an adequate number of primary schools and fifty junior secondary schools (grades seven, eight, and nine). <span style="font-weight: bold">Until the 1970s, however, the educational system continued to provide insufficient opportunities at the postprimary levels because many of the features inherited from the British educational system remained.
</span></div></div>

Jamaica - EDUCATION

http://countrystudies.us/caribbean-islands/22.htm

Caribbean Islands

**Yuriatin** · 08-10-2010, 02:11 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Just going off of my own experience and my mother's, have crossed off what I disagree with. In these areas, we're regressing or improved very little - at least in my part of the country.

i.e.; The same broken and battered roads my mom walked as a child ... guess what - literally, STILL broken and busted.

Since before I could walk, many of my relatives on the south coast have want of electricity and water - to this day - neither has come.

However, almost everyone has a celly. Good thing too as you need to be able to call ahead and tell them you're going to be late - especially since you have no reliable means of transportation to travere the pot holed roads.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica is much better off, than before independence.
We have progress in almost ever way.
There is no comparison....NONE.

You name it and we probable doing better?

To name a few
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">energy
cooking gas
Refrigeration
Roads/transportation
piped water</span>
food
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">school</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">employment</span>
clothing/shoes
# professionals in all professions
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Housing</span>
electrification
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">social mobility</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">literac</span>y
Standards
etc ...on and on
</div></div>

**Yuriatin** · 08-10-2010, 02:15 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Frank - is this your list or from elsewhere?

Thanks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica is much better off, than before independence.
We have progress in almost ever way.
There is no comparison....NONE.

You name it and we probable doing better?

To name a few
energy
cooking gas
Refrigeration
Roads/transportation
piped water
food
school
employment
clothing/shoes
# professionals in all professions
Housing
electrification
social mobility
literacy
Standards
etc ...on and on
</div></div>

**Wahalla** · 08-10-2010, 02:55 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

and what percentage attened/ completed primary schools at independence?????? in 43 literasy was 68% i beleive...There was a push post world war ii to raise literacy....

i am not arguing that schools were adequate.. rather that literasy was at least 85% at independence....that tallies with experience... most people in ja had a primary educatiuon...now we have most people having a secondary education..yet less than 10% of the cohort seem to qualify in maths or english.. forgive me but from 85 % literasy to 85 % literasy with the same % of the cohort having basic qualification in maths or english is not progress... that their is secondary education it is simply not progress... There is more tertiary education.. but the % getting qualifivations at secondary is virtually stationary...

Granted

**Wahalla** · 08-10-2010, 04:28 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

That is the serious point about infrastruicture that my friend made. Same buildings no changes.... the same places insitutions have not been improved...look at Santa Cruz or Black river .. what development has taken place ????

the same buildings many predating independence are the goverment institutions. the three primary schools I am very familiar with have teh same buildings .Tje difference is that prior to independence few expected goverment services.. now we all do... Malvern court house is a wreck.. the police station is non existant.. nothing was improved.. the clinic the same.. the post office the same... eother there was over capacity prior to independence.. the high school had to pull down a building because of structural issues and privately raised money was used to build assembly hall.. this is the same through out Jamaica...

But I bet you there are statistics showing the investments made in all these insitututions...

**franksterr** · 08-10-2010, 04:42 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

On the subject of literacy...first you said it was 60% at independence, so if it is now at 85% that's improvement.

An extensive period of postwar growth transformed Jamaica into an increasingly industrial society. This pattern was accelerated with the export of bauxite beginning in the 1950s. The economic structure shifted from a dependence on agriculture that in 1950 accounted for 30.8 percent of GDP to an agricultural contribution of 12.9 percent in 1960 and 6.7 percent in 1970. During the same period, the contribution to GDP of mining increased from less than 1 percent in 1950 to 9.3 percent in 1960 and 12.6 percent in 1970. Manufacturing expanded from 11.3 percent in 1950 to 12.8 in 1960 and 15.7 in 1970.

Jamaica - Patterns of Development

http://countrystudies.us/caribbean-islands/26.htm

Caribbean Islands

**mountaingal** · 08-10-2010, 04:43 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Wahalla, duh, no badda try gwaan like Santa and Malvern inna di same decrepit boat.

Santa, i'll have u know, has<span style="text-decoration: underline"> traffic lights </span>in the main town square. and the primary school, that used to be a big board building when i first started there, is a concrete building now and has been for over 40 years.

plus dem have internet in the Santa Cruz library, where, as a child, i used to borrow my first books.

yay Santa! :

**remo** · 08-10-2010, 04:48 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wahalla, duh, no badda try gwaan like Santa and Malvern inna di same decrepit boat.

Santa, i'll have u know, has<span style="text-decoration: underline"> traffic lights </span>in the main town square. and the primary school, that used to be a big board building when i first started there, is a concrete building now and has been for over 40 years.

plus dem have internet in the Santa Cruz library, where, as a child, i used to borrow my first books.

yay Santa! : </div></div>

Yeah mi like Santa tuh .......

Their is a court house in Malvern?

**franksterr** · 08-10-2010, 04:52 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just going off of my own experience and my mother's, have crossed off what I disagree with. In these areas, we're regressing or improved very little - at least in my part of the country.

i.e.; The same broken and battered roads my mom walked as a child ... guess what - literally, STILL broken and busted.

Since before I could walk, many of my relatives on the south coast have want of electricity and water - to this day - neither has come.

However, almost everyone has a celly. Good thing too as you need to be able to call ahead and tell them you're going to be late - especially since you have no reliable means of transportation to travere the pot holed roads.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica is much better off, than before independence.
We have progress in almost ever way.
There is no comparison....NONE.

You name it and we probable doing better?

To name a few
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">energy
cooking gas
Refrigeration
Roads/transportation
piped water</span>
food
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">school</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">employment</span>
clothing/shoes
# professionals in all professions
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Housing</span>
electrification
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">social mobility</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">literac</span>y
Standards
etc ...on and on
</div></div> </div></div>

Pick your strongest one and lets deal with it in detail??

What are you saying Less people live in proper habitable housing now, less people have frig and access to transportation and piped water.
Please if we are going with anecdotal stories when I moved to Havendale in the early 60's there was only one paved road their, today the entire community is crisscross with road the bush and dirt path hills which we knew as mount calm is now fully develop and called chancery hall.
My aunt who lived in Mureen Gardens ocho rios had no piped water and less paved roads, now they whole community have.

**Yuriatin** · 08-10-2010, 05:15 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<span style="font-style: italic">(why are you saying "PLEASE" ...)</span>

Anyway, yes, for me, JA is not as you say <span style="font-weight: bold">"much better off than before independence."</span> I especially feel so when it comes to health care. Let's not even mention other basics, such as postal service.

I’m not going by "anecdotal" stories.

I just don’t always or mainly subscribe to institutional studies and white papers.

I base my post, as I said, on my life experiences, current, recent and past – by the man on the street, by my family on the street, by <span style="text-decoration: underline">me</span> on the street – in Kingston, in Woodpark, in Goshen, in Gayle, in Saltrum: St Mary. In Runaway Bay, in Port Royal, Mobay, in St Elizabeth. By my husband’s breaking back, who STILL carries water for his grandmother – still. He’s been doing it since he was 11 years old. All in a town less than a 20minute drive from Ocho Rios.

I suppose we'll just have a difference of opinion - or fact - whichever you choose.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just going off of my own experience and my mother's, have crossed off what I disagree with. In these areas, we're regressing or improved very little - at least in my part of the country.

i.e.; The same broken and battered roads my mom walked as a child ... guess what - literally, STILL broken and busted.

Since before I could walk, many of my relatives on the south coast have want of electricity and water - to this day - neither has come.

However, almost everyone has a celly. Good thing too as you need to be able to call ahead and tell them you're going to be late - especially since you have no reliable means of transportation to travere the pot holed roads.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica is much better off, than before independence.
We have progress in almost ever way.
There is no comparison....NONE.

You name it and we probable doing better?

To name a few
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">energy
cooking gas
Refrigeration
Roads/transportation
piped water</span>
food
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">school</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">employment</span>
clothing/shoes
# professionals in all professions
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Housing</span>
electrification
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">social mobility</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">literac</span>y
Standards
etc ...on and on
</div></div> </div></div>

Pick your strongest one and lets deal with it in detail??

What are you saying Less people live in proper habitable housing now, less people have frig and access to transportation and piped water.
Please if we are going with anecdotal stories when I moved to Havendale in the early 60's there was only one paved road their, today the entire community is crisscross with road the bush and dirt path hills which we knew as mount calm is now fully develop and called chancery hall.
My aunt who lived in Mureen Gardens ocho rios had no piped water and less paved roads, now they whole community have. </div></div>

**franksterr** · 08-10-2010, 05:49 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1966 Jamaica became one of the first countries in the world to establish a national health service.</div></div>

Jamaica - HEALTH AND WELFARE

http://countrystudies.us/caribbean-islands/23.htm

Caribbean Islands

Jamaica is a net exporter of Doctors nurses and teachers, can we say the same for prior to independence - its called the "brain drain".

speaking of health care, Jamaica has in excess of 50 hospitals today, do you wish to guess how many we had at independence?

With respect to your husband carrying water, I know places in upstate NY with no piped water, does that mean that NY has no progress since the depression?

**queenb** · 08-10-2010, 06:06 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

How about schools? Wasn't education free for a while in the 60's?

**franksterr** · 08-10-2010, 06:12 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about schools? Wasn't education free for a while in the 60's? </div></div>

Yes elementary.....but by the 70's secondary and tertiary were to those who qualified.

How many schools did we have before and after independence?

**Dr.Dudd** · 08-10-2010, 07:43 PM

Re: So 48 Years Later...

There Was no free education in Jamaica during the 60's. Free education was Introduced during the terrible period of he 70's.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about schools? Wasn't education free for a while in the 60's? </div></div>

So 48 Years Later...

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