So 48 Years Later...

[Yuriatin]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

I know what the term brain drain means, thanks.

The fact that JA is a major exporter of medical professionals can be viewed through 2 prisms. Sure it can be seen as a plus.

But it reeks of a sad failure that so many - TOO many are leaving the country.

We shouldn't only be touting the fact that we're exporting med. profs - it's a sad calling card that so many have to leave - that they're not being paid or being be what they should, that sooooo many work in horrific conditions, etc. When last have you spent the night in a Jamaican hospital - when last have you been serviced by any of them? (this is a rhetorical question but I'll come back and recount my personal experiences there - and that of the elders in my family who've been treated in them before and after independence, none of who feel their care was better now that it was 48 years ago)

With respect to upstate NY, we're not talking about the USA are we - the subject (that you brought up) is JA being or not being better off since independence (in your list of specific categories. The depression in the USA and JA independence are 2 completely different things and it's quite irrelevant to try and put both on the table.

Either way though, I'm sure you'll continue in your belief that JA is "much better" off now than BI. And so be it I suppose - it's all good - we all, I suppose, have our own prism.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1966 Jamaica became one of the first countries in the world to establish a national health service.</div></div>

http://countrystudies.us/caribbean-islands/23.htm

Jamaica is a net exporter of Doctors nurses and teachers, can we say the same for prior to independence - its called the &quot;brain drain&quot;.

speaking of health care, Jamaica has in excess of 50 hospitals today, do you wish to guess how many we had at independence?

With respect to your husband carrying water, I know places in upstate NY with no piped water, does that mean that NY has no progress since the depression? </div></div>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: So 48 Years Later...


Anecdotal is anecdotal irrespective if What you call it.


What you described is. Classical anecdotal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">(why are you saying &quot;PLEASE&quot; ...)</span>

Anyway, yes, for me, JA is not as you say <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;much better off than before independence.&quot;</span> I especially feel so when it comes to health care. Let's not even mention other basics, such as postal service.

I’m not going by &quot;anecdotal&quot; stories.

I just don’t always or mainly subscribe to institutional studies and white papers.

I base my post, as I said, on my life experiences, current, recent and past – by the man on the street, by my family on the street, by <span style="text-decoration: underline">me</span> on the street – in Kingston, in Woodpark, in Goshen, in Gayle, in Saltrum: St Mary. In Runaway Bay, in Port Royal, Mobay, in St Elizabeth. By my husband’s breaking back, who STILL carries water for his grandmother – still. He’s been doing it since he was 11 years old. All in a town less than a 20minute drive from Ocho Rios.

I suppose we'll just have a difference of opinion - or fact - whichever you choose.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just going off of my own experience and my mother's, have crossed off what I disagree with. In these areas, we're regressing or improved very little - at least in my part of the country.

i.e.; The same broken and battered roads my mom walked as a child ... guess what - literally, STILL broken and busted.

Since before I could walk, many of my relatives on the south coast have want of electricity and water - to this day - neither has come.

However, almost everyone has a celly. Good thing too as you need to be able to call ahead and tell them you're going to be late - especially since you have no reliable means of transportation to travere the pot holed roads.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica is much better off, than before independence.
We have progress in almost ever way.
There is no comparison....NONE.

You name it and we probable doing better?

To name a few
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">energy
cooking gas
Refrigeration
Roads/transportation
piped water</span>
food
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">school</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">employment</span>
clothing/shoes
# professionals in all professions
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Housing</span>
electrification
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">social mobility</span>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">literac</span>y
Standards
etc ...on and on
</div></div> </div></div>

Pick your strongest one and lets deal with it in detail??

What are you saying Less people live in proper habitable housing now, less people have frig and access to transportation and piped water.
Please if we are going with anecdotal stories when I moved to Havendale in the early 60's there was only one paved road their, today the entire community is crisscross with road the bush and dirt path hills which we knew as mount calm is now fully develop and called chancery hall.
My aunt who lived in Mureen Gardens ocho rios had no piped water and less paved roads, now they whole community have. </div></div> </div></div>

[franksterr]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what the term brain drain means, thanks.

The fact that JA is a major exporter of medical professionals can be viewed through 2 prisms. Sure it can be seen as a plus.

But it reeks of a sad failure that so many - TOO many are leaving the country.

We shouldn't only be touting the fact that we're exporting med. profs - it's a sad calling card that so many have to leave - that they're not being paid or being be what they should, that sooooo many work in horrific conditions, etc. When last have you spent the night in a Jamaican hospital - when last have you been serviced by any of them? (this is a rhetorical question but I'll come back and recount my personal experiences there - and that of the elders in my family who've been treated in them before and after independence, none of who feel their care was better now that it was 48 years ago)

With respect to upstate NY, we're not talking about the USA are we - the subject (that you brought up) is JA being or not being better off since independence (in your list of specific categories. The depression in the USA and JA independence are 2 completely different things and it's quite irrelevant to try and put both on the table.

Either way though, I'm sure you'll continue in your belief that JA is &quot;much better&quot; off now than BI. And so be it I suppose - it's all good - we all, I suppose, have our own prism.

</div></div>
Before independence the chance of a black Jamaican becoming a Doctor, Nurse or Teacher was less than 1%
Jamaican Doctors leaving our shore in search of greener pastures, is a testament to the quality of our educational system and the freedom our society allow its citizens.
Its been a long time, since I have been in a Jamaican hospital and wish never to return to any hospital, Not all Jamaican hospital are horrible. But here is what is most important, That There is an Hospital that will treat you, if needs be. In many Developing Countries there is No Hospital or few and far between, plus when you get there treatment is not guaranteed until payment is assured.

The point of the Upstate NY story, is to bring home the point that development does not happen everywhere at the same time, so in every society you will find a New Kingston and a Mucko Mountain, The existence of a Mucko Mountain does not negate a New Kingston...One is a example of where we coming from and the other a demonstration of where we headed.

What I have presented is supported by facts so it is not a matter of belief, but a reflection of the actual state of affairs.

Now if you care to relate the socalled present day poor treatment that your elders recieve in comparison to pre-independence hospital care that was so great a can assure you that they are mistaken....
The Old Days are always idealized, and rosey up into the Good Old Days but believe me it was never so.

[Yuriatin]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

As you wish Frankie - you hold on to your facts and I'll hold on to mine.

But it's too bad, that with JA being so much better since independence, our doctors have to leave to find &quot;greener pastures&quot;.

How ironic that with so much betterment, they can't find them at home.

I wonder why.

[franksterr]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you wish Frankie - you hold on to your facts and I'll hold on to mine.

But it's too bad, that with JA being so much better since independence, our doctors have to leave to find &quot;greener pastures&quot;.

How ironic that with so much betterment, they can't find them at home.

I wonder why.


</div></div>

What FACTS Have YOU Presented????

When it comes to people leaving for greener pastures, Jamaica is in Good company, Its only Bad when you <span style="font-weight: bold">cant leave </span>to go and search for said pastures.
There is no need to wonder!! Jamaicans been leaving before during and after independence.
Anyway it is worth noting that people from every country in the world leave their homeland and go in search of green pastures in foreign lands. Here in the US I find Canadian, English, Swede, French, Ghanaians, Germans, Japanese etc etc

Whats ironic the freedom to travel?

[jah_yout]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Magic, I beg to differ. I drove all over Barbados, and the quality of life is much better than in Jamaica, although their island isn't nearly as lush or as large. The crime rate is lower, and the island on the whole safer.

For some reason, England kept a stronger presence in Barbados, while Jamaica was abandoned; kept in the Commonwealth in name only without the strong cultural support. The result is a higher educated, more loyal to the island populace. True Bajans go abroad for higher education, but many go to Jamaica to UWI-Mona then return to Barbados. I don't know about the government there, whether it has the same colorism/classism structure, but somehow I doubt it. We got a tour around from a local, who was white and proudly claimed descent from criminal past, while proudly being a common worker in Barbados.

I don't know what Jamaia did to invoke the ire of Great Britain, but whatever it was has had a profound effect on the development of the natioin. </div></div>

seems like you are inconsolable that britain had to let go of jamaica;

if only britain would stop being mad at us...

o please forgive us queen majesty

[jah_yout]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you wish Frankie - you hold on to your facts and I'll hold on to mine.

But it's too bad, that with JA being so much better since independence, our doctors have to leave to find &quot;greener pastures&quot;.

How ironic that with so much betterment, they can't find them at home.

I wonder why.


</div></div>


my theory is that nations descended from the african slave trade &amp; africa itself is seen as a laughing stock in the eyes of the world due to almost comical lack of unity or preservation of self/national interests...
the citizenry has by &amp; large has had to watch con-men (&amp; women) run the government who have no interest in countering the global economic elites whose only wish is to maintain people in places like jamaica as modern-day slaves...

but slowly the pendulum will swing...
we are already witnessing the slow excruciating fall of the great babylon--amerikkka...
when the population of jamaica take it back from the charlatans who have been in power--then will the promise of independence have a chance to fulfill;

only when the jamaican masses acquire knowledge of self and learn pride in being jamaicans &amp; accept pride in their african ancestry instead of aspiring to become more like the beast who has mesmerized their brains with the consumer/commercial civilization of vanity...

a lot of jamaicans nowadays don't know what it means to be jamaican...they think it means being loud &amp; obnoxious...they don't study their history...they don't know where they are coming from so they don't know where they are going;
there is no real national identity or direction;
a complete mental purging is what is needed...
the minds must become independent before the land mass can...

<span style="font-size: 14pt">and oh yea...get rid of the british queen as the <span style="font-style: italic">official head of state</span></span>

[Yuriatin]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Ahhh yes – facts. Studies. Reports.

Facts.

We all know how reliable, air tight, infallible those are right?

Yes, Frank – let’s all go by the facts – and you know, now that I look at them, it’s agreed Jamaica is much much better off today that it was pre independence.

I was mistaken. Your facts are so, so right.

Walk good.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you wish Frankie - you hold on to your facts and I'll hold on to mine.

But it's too bad, that with JA being so much better since independence, our doctors have to leave to find &quot;greener pastures&quot;.

How ironic that with so much betterment, they can't find them at home.

I wonder why.


</div></div>

What FACTS Have YOU Presented????

When it comes to people leaving for greener pastures, Jamaica is in Good company, Its only Bad when you <span style="font-weight: bold">cant leave </span>to go and search for said pastures.
There is no need to wonder!! Jamaicans been leaving before during and after independence.
Anyway it is worth noting that people from every country in the world leave their homeland and go in search of green pastures in foreign lands. Here in the US I find Canadian, English, Swede, French, Ghanaians, Germans, Japanese etc etc

Whats ironic the freedom to travel? </div></div>

[franksterr]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

Yuri_

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ahhh yes – facts. Studies. Reports.

Facts.

We all know how reliable, air tight, infallible those are right?

Yes, Frank – let’s all go by the facts – and you know, now that I look at them, it’s agreed Jamaica is much much better off today that it was pre independence.

I was mistaken. Your facts are so, so right.

Walk good.</div></div>

I love you too

[Yuriatin]

Re: So 48 Years Later...

How come you didn't love me before Frankie??

<span style="font-style: italic">Because I say potato and you say poe tahtoe?</span>

Either way, it's alright - I'll stick to my potato - I forgive you.

We'll both continue to think the other is way off base.

Love you too.

Walk good.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yuri_

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ahhh yes – facts. Studies. Reports.

Facts.

We all know how reliable, air tight, infallible those are right?

Yes, Frank – let’s all go by the facts – and you know, now that I look at them, it’s agreed Jamaica is much much better off today that it was pre independence.

I was mistaken. Your facts are so, so right.

Walk good.</div></div>

I love you too

</div></div>