Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pay...

[SmoothOperator]

..for founders and and relatives. Gee not the Hour of Power too - say it is not so.
---------
Don Neuen, a former 10-year choral conductor at the church, said that the news of salaries and housing allowances is shocking and heartbreaking. "It erodes my trust in the family that they would do this, [while] owing other people," Neuen said.

The church paid out more than $1.8 million to 23 insiders and members of Schuller's family in the 12 months leading up to the Oct. 18 bankruptcy filing, according to the financial statements. That sum included $832,490 in tax-exempt housing allowances given to eight people and payments to all five of Schuller's children and their spouses.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-crystal-cathedral-20101203,0,2859529.story

[j-kid]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pay...

Talk bout having yuh cake, an nyam it too!

[evanovitch]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pay...

u know di fada is seen by some in the Church as the originator of this prosperity theology and the start of the decline of the CHurch in the US...it is no surprise to moi dat dem reach dis stage...father and son fall out and the church break up...wat a crock....now is juss a matter of the division of the spoils....people's tithes and offerings...

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pay...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know di fada is seen by some in the Church as the originator of this prosperity theology and the start of the decline of the CHurch in the US...it is no surprise to moi dat dem reach dis stage...father and son fall out and the church break up...wat a crock....now is juss a matter of the division of the spoils....people's tithes and offerings... </div></div>i font know about christal cathedral if They follow their unique policy.

But one of the building blocks of prosperity denominations of Which i think his church is a member is NO TITHES REWUIRED.

They don't require tithing
And those who believe he originated prosperity theology need to read Earnest Holmes.
And only those ignorant of the teaching would beliieve the teaching degrades the church.
The teaching does not even encourage evangelism.
It is more logical than the tithing organizations too.

[evanovitch]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pay...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know di fada is seen by some in the Church as the originator of this prosperity theology and the start of the decline of the CHurch in the US...it is no surprise to moi dat dem reach dis stage...father and son fall out and the church break up...wat a crock....now is juss a matter of the division of the spoils....people's tithes and offerings... </div></div>i font know about christal cathedral if They follow their unique policy.

But one of the building blocks of prosperity denominations of Which i think his church is a member is NO TITHES REWUIRED.

They don't require tithing
And those who believe he originated prosperity theology need to read Earnest Holmes.
And only those ignorant of the teaching would beliieve the teaching degrades the church.
The teaching does not even encourage evangelism.
It is more logical than the tithing organizations too. </div></div>


u a cawl mi hignorant

[evanovitch]

actually he is credited wid di self-esteem theolog

Referring to “man-centered evangelicals:”



&quot;It’s interesting how this trend has come into the church. I’ve been around long enough to have seen it arrive. It blossomed, I think, most pointedly through the effort of…[the] rel<span style="font-weight: bold">igious personality Robert Schuller and a book he wrote a number of years ago called Self-Esteem: The New Reformation.... It was an effort to replace the biblical gospel with a new gospel. And it worked</span>.&quot; (p.3)

&quot;In that book, Robert Schuller attacked the Protestant Reformation. Calling for a new reformation, he wrote: 'It is precisely at this point that classical theology has erred in its insistence that theology be ‘God-centered’ and not ‘man-centered.’ So, according to Schuller, the first thing we have to do is put an end to classical, God-centered theology and replace it with man-centered theology.” (p.3)



&quot;To define man-centered theology (an oxymoron), [Schuller] wrote further, 'This master plan of God is designed around the deepest needs of human beings - self-dignity, self-respect, self-worth, self-esteem.'&quot; (p.3)



&quot;For Schuller, the pearl of great price is self-respect and self-esteem. He went on to say, 'Success is to be defined as the gift of self-esteem that God gives us as a reward for our sacrificial service in building self-esteem in others. Win or lose: If we follow God’s plan as faithfully as we can, we will feel good about ourselves.” (p.4)



&quot;In this new reformation of self-esteem, the first thing required is to pull God down from His supremely elevated place so you can then lift yourself up, replacing God-exalting theology with man-exalting self-esteem psychology. [And] to pull this off requires altering and misinterpreting the Bible and the gospel for the grand purpose of making people feel better about themselves, so they can fulfill their dreams and realize their visions.&quot; (p.4)



&quot;Maybe the most amazing statement in Self-Esteem: The New Reformation is the following: 'Once a person believes he is an ‘unworthy sinner,’ it is doubtful if he can really honestly accept the saving grace God offers in Jesus Christ.' So, if you want to be saved, according to this new gospel you cannot believe yourself to be an unworthy sinner.

&quot;How twisted is that? How contrary to the truth is that? But it is just this sort of man-centered, self-esteem gospel that eventually became the seeker sensitive movement, which has hijacked so many churches. It’s kind of a quasi-Christian narcissism, or self-love, that is characteristic of false teachers: according to 2 Timothy 3, which reminds us, “Dangerous times will come, for men will be lovers of themselves.” (p.4)



“People are breezing through those wide, comfortable, inviting gates with all their baggage, their self-needs, their self-esteem, and their desire for fulfillment and self-satisfaction. And the most horrible thing about it is they think they’re going to heaven.” (p. 13)

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

What is hilarious is that sonny boy stll deh pon the payroll even though him fall out with the daddy 'bout 2 years ago. And the spouses of the children all on the payroll. And the church paying housing allowance for all the family members and presumably the church paid for the million dollar houses directly or indirectly through 6 and 7 figure salaries over the years. So these people who neva had a real job in their life will now have to get with the program in order to maintain each of their million dollar properties or dem can always start a new church and start the cycle all over again. Rinse, wash and repeat.

[evanovitch]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

so di feud bruk up di church...mi know mi no deh down south anymore but mi neva know di church did bruk up..i knew about the feud re succession but dang...guess it prove seh it was not God dem was giving di glory to...

[evanovitch]

didn't the daughter tek ovah as parson

[johnnycakes]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

Didn't Jesus teach that the most important thing to do was to spend money building extravagant churches, buying TV time, expensive suits, cars, etc which is what all the TV evangelists seem to do ?

Just kidding.

Jesus is usually depicted preaching outside in the open; no church, no fancy clothes, and most importantly, helping the poor and underprivileged with whatever he could get his hands on.

Anyone who claims to be a Christian and gathers a heap of money from gullible people and spend it on things like any kind of church and not for direct help of the poor is a heretic and a SELF serving hypocrite. IMO.

It is NOT what Jesus would do. It is not what he taught.

Of course, what Jesus taught runs in the opposite direction of free enterprise and capitalism which is all about gathering personal wealth.
Schuller, as a believer in the selfishness of capitalism, had to come up with a way to justify it in the face of what Jesus taught.

And Schuller has more people in these fora who think like him vis a vis spending money on the glitzy trappings of Christianity than not.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

About spending money on churches and not the poor: and...... why do I get the feeling all this will make me even less popular here than I am in the International section?

http://books.google.com/books?id=felkD8C...ita&amp;f=false

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Didn't Jesus teach that the most important thing to do was to spend money building extravagant churches, buying TV time, expensive suits, cars, etc which is what all the TV evangelists seem to do ?

Just kidding.

Jesus is usually depicted preaching outside in the open; no church, no fancy clothes, and most importantly, helping the poor and underprivileged with whatever he could get his hands on.

Anyone who claims to be a Christian and gathers a heap of money from gullible people and spend it on things like any kind of church and not for direct help of the poor is a heretic and a SELF serving hypocrite. IMO.

It is NOT what Jesus would do. It is not what he taught.

Of course, what Jesus taught runs in the opposite direction of free enterprise and capitalism which is all about gathering personal wealth.
Schuller, as a believer in the selfishness of capitalism, had to come up with a way to justify it in the face of what Jesus taught.

And Schuller has more people in these fora who think like him vis a vis spending money on the glitzy trappings of Christianity than not.



</div></div>

Very well said. People pick and choose what they want from the bible to justify their actions...and to some extent this is true for everybody. But I am pretty sure that Jesus would be strongly opposed to these mega churches which in many cases are monuments to satisfy the ego of the pastor and their bling, bling mcmansions which they hold up as testament to the fact that god has blessed them for their faithfulness to him. When Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven and that the rich should dispose of the lion's share of their wealth if they really want to follow him I happen to think he really meant it.

[Cultcha]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven and that the rich should dispose of the lion's share of their wealth if they really want to follow him I happen to think he really meant it. </div></div>

[johnnycakes]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

SmoothOperator,

And isn't that considered redistribution of wealth; i.e. socialism ?
and aren't the overwhelming majority of &quot;christians&quot; in Jamaica and the United States opposed to that sort of thing?

How can they reconcile what Jesus taught with what they think and practice and support except by following Schuller's twisted logic ?

No one has ever explained that to me and they just run from the question when asked.

I get dead silence.

What do you think about the lack of response from what seems to be a very religious
group.

I post the question at Philosophy/religion and I get people posting videos of extravagantly dressed choirs singing their favorite hymns and biblical quotes or sermons that do not relate to the question.

Can YOU give any sort of explanation for this?

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Crystal Cathedral bankruptcy shows generous pa

Like I said people pick and choose from the bible to justify what they want. I have heard ministers of the prosperity gospel justify their lifestyle by claiming that Jesus himself was a rich man that wore fine linen, so it is ok when pastors wear $10,000 italian suits. And the wisemen gave Jesus gold, frankincense and myrrh so whats the big deal when a minister flashes a little bling, bling. Their wealth is proof of their righteousness or God would not have blessed them so. Of course if you are not doing so hot then it is because your righteousness is not at the level where God can bless you.

But to see the Crystal Cathedral the first of the mega mega churches and really a monument to Rev Schuller go down, may give some people pause about this theology. ABC did another story on it again last night, looks like a lot of people were looking the other way when they should have been looking at the books to see what the tithes were going to over the years...

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/schuller-hour-power-church-insiders-18m/story?id=12306917