How the World Works

[RichD]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> all opinion is based on facts..</div></div>

Eh?

Rich,
If I met a fat guy, I could say he eats too much fast food.
That would be my opinion, not based on any fact.

What if he eats salad all the time and just happens to be fat? </div></div>

you opinion is based on the fact that he is fat.. </div></div>

No.

My opinion on why he is fat is based on what I <span style="font-style: italic">think</span> he eats. </div></div>

what fact motivated you to form an opinion on what he eats?

[Derek]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

what fact motivated you to form an opinion on what he eats? </div></div>

The fact that he is fat.

[RichD]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

what fact motivated you to form an opinion on what he eats? </div></div>

The fact that he is fat. </div></div>

[Derek]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

what fact motivated you to form an opinion on what he eats? </div></div>

The fact that he is fat. </div></div>



</div></div>

But do you agree that my opinion of why he is fat isn't fact-based?
I only THINK he eats fast food.




My point is, an opinion can be based on a known fact or it can be based simply upon what I <span style="font-style: italic">think</span>.


My opinion of you is you're a man, because you use a man's name on here.
But we've never met, therefore, it's not impossible for Rich to actually mean Richana.

[RichD]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

what fact motivated you to form an opinion on what he eats? </div></div>

The fact that he is fat. </div></div>



</div></div>

But do you agree that my opinion of why he is fat isn't fact-based?
I only THINK he eats fast food.




My point is, an opinion can be based on a known fact or it can be based simply upon what I <span style="font-style: italic">think</span>.


My opinion of you is you're a man, because you use a man's name on here.
But we've never met, therefore, it's not impossible for Rich to actually mean Richana. </div></div>

derek..your opinion was based on the facts you had....you were filling int he gaps in absence of <span style="font-weight: bold">ALL</span> the facts.

the whole point i have been trying to make to Our good freind mr Cakes is that opinion is just that ..its what you think based on the facts at your disposal..it neither right nor wrong unless additional information is available to invalidate it.

[Suesumba]

Re: How the World Works

wow you guys are deep.

[johnnycakes]

Re: How the World Works

For Rich and Derek,

This all started because of what I said about various news sources and more specifically the reliability of articles published at ZNET compared to the other traditional and more commonly referenced sources.


It can be no secret that when it comes U.S foreign policy the government spokespeople necessarily lie like rugs because what they do is often unacceptable to international law and as a rule unacceptable to international standards of morality.

All of the corporate media have to be careful of what they put out and generally go along with what the government says is true or they lose their contacts in government who won't talk to them and consequently lose audience and money which IS the bottom line and is the reason you cannot rely on the corporate media to tell the truth about foreign policy or the (capitalist) economy or socialism.

Sources like ZNET and TomDispatch are subscriber supported and so are free to say whatever they want. They are also on what those in the media call the far left. The facts and opinions that you see at ZNET, TomDispatch (and some others also on the far left) are things you do not, cannot get from the corporate media.

Totally discounting what is published at these sites by saying it is opinion is IMO a cute way to get around the truth of what I am saying.

Recent studies and pols have shown that just about 100% of people who get their news from Fox do not look at any other news source to compare what they have gotten from Fox.
This is also true to a somewhat lesser degree of those whose opinions have been formed by getting their news only from the rest of the corporate media which in turn is heavily influenced by popular thought which Fox greatly influences and which is (in the case of foreign policy and capitalism) lies or erroneous information.

Rich has admitted he doesn't read ZNET and has more or less said he reads/watches what Sarah Palin reads/watches which again in the case of U.S foreign policy and capitalism is totally unreliable.

IMO this is intellectual cowardice. It is akin to a closet gay refusing to step in to a gay bar and being afraid to question his masculinity because of what he is afraid he'll find.

I make it a habit to listen to Limbaugh and whomever else is on the right wing talk shows at the time I can tune in. I also listen to &quot;Democracy Now&quot; which is a daily left news show. I listen to the Lehrer News Hour, I listen to NPR, I read every Time, Newsweek etc whenever and wherever I find them. I get my info from far right to far left and then compare what each is saying about the same issue.
If you do not do this you don't know jack about what is true and what is not.

Why else is it that by overwhelming numbers the U.S public thinks that the Muslims are out to get us? That Saddam Hussein had WMD, that the public does not want universal single payer health care (when all polls show the opposite is true).

I always say that no one should take the word of any single person including me on anything, but to get info on the matter from every source available and then make an assessment as to where the truth lies.
The war on Iraq is a classic case and shows that the government lied, the establishment intellectuals lied and the corporate media to which most Americans limit their information gathering from merely parrots what they are told. or worse, presents a conservative-to-liberal comparison which totally eliminates the views of sources like ZNET's authors who have a lock on the truth of things.

In short, there is opinion based on BS and there is opinion based on fact.
The corporate news outlets by necessity present news and opinion based on BS.
The left, critical of the establishment and free to say whatever they want without fear of financial repercussions can and does print the truth.

On several occasions in the past I have issued challenges to those who denigrate ZNET to find errors of fact or opinions that were not based on fact and therefore valid and I get no responses.
Conversely, I have frequently ripped apart corporate information sources for the untruths they put out by presenting proof that what they say is either erroneous or a transparent lie.
Personally, I look forward to getting erroneous info from the right as is usual and then putting that info side-by-side with what I get from the left and seeing the how, where what and whys of the lies from the right.

It seems a great many people are too frightened of what they'll find about their own beliefs to do this.

Refusing to read what you know contradicts what you have chosen and may well put the lie to what you believe is like sticking your head in the sand.

[RichD]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SueSumba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow you guys are deep. </div></div> and so early in the morning ....

[RichD]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you do not do this you don't know jack about what is true and what is not.


</div></div>

i agree. I always choose multiple sources to try to distill what the facts are.


but i come back to do not confuse analysis of the facts with facts them self. and just because an opinion is sprinkled with facts does not make it valid. specially when trying to determine personal motivations.

[Derek]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get my info from far right to far left and then compare what each is saying about the same issue.
If you do not do this you don't know jack about what is true and what is not.</div></div>




Me too.

[Derek]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SueSumba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow you guys are deep. </div></div> and so early in the morning .... </div></div>

It's 8.12 pm....

[RichD]

Re: How the World Works

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SueSumba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow you guys are deep. </div></div> and so early in the morning .... </div></div>

It's 8.12 pm.... </div></div> and after a hard days work....

[johnnycakes]

Re: How the World Works

RichD:

&quot;but i come back to do not confuse analysis of the facts with facts them self. and just because an opinion is sprinkled with facts does not make it valid. specially when trying to determine personal motivations.&quot;


RichD,
My main point is that anyone whose opinions on capitalism in general and U.S foreign policy specifically (those being the main topics on the left media) are formed by and PRIMARILY based on what they learn from the corporate media, government or sources that parrot those sources, is going to be disinformed (fed deliberate lies which are believed in whole or part) to a fairly deep degree.

If you tune in to a panel discussion on the corporate media which has two conservatives and a liberal/ liberal intellectual you still come away with an establishment way of thinking because the corporate media never has the left on those show.

You can agree or disagree with this but the truth does have a left bias for reasons I have explained and which have not been denied.
Without being grounded in the truth which would usually require being on the left and having absorbed the facts of (for instance) the criminality and cruelty of U.S foreign policy and capitalism, the information to which the public is exposed and which is generally believed has no way of being held up to a matrix of the truth.

An example: U.S foreign policy to the average American who has limited access to the truth is basically one of &quot;being the world's policeman&quot; to 'maintain the peace&quot; to prevent &quot;radical Islamists&quot; from killing us etc all noble causes and while there might be some things we have to do that are not nice but which are necessary for accomplishing the things listed, overall the United States is about doing good in the world.

Well were those people to have only read ZNET, TomDispatch
and a small number of other left sources, they never would accept those arrant lies as truth and the policies would not long stand.

The problem is that 96% ( an educated guess) of the people get their information from establishment sources with very little information coming from left (factual) sources and believe that the U.S is basically good with minor faults while the truth is that U.S foreign policy is immoral, often illegal and exists for selfish reasons (the amorphous &quot;U.S. interests&quot; rarely explained) and that U.S foreign policy has nothing whatsoever to do with &quot;doing good in the world&quot;.


The effectiveness of Nazi and Soviet propaganda is often cited in history lessons and by the right in this country but those were childish when compared to the near complete mind control in effect in the United States through the very subtle and sophisticated programming to which the U.S public is exposed.

The only people immune to this most effective brainwashing are those who have long been on the left who have never drunk the Kool-Aid offered.

(BTW Kool-Aid is NOT a welfare program for retired jazz musicians)

[RichD]

Re: How the World Works

cakes...you are trying to invalidate somebodies opinion because you do not agree with it.

you have formed the opinion that the only way somebody could oppose you is because they do not have all the facts...what facts did you base your opinion on?

for example ..is this a fact? : &quot;the US has the most powerful military in the world&quot;

now you have one opinion on what that means they should do ...others might have another opinion based on that specific fact. why is your opinion more valid than others?

ideas of fairness and justice are not hard and fast.


you support some in justices because in your opinion they result in a great good for more people..others might not share that opinion.

[Nunya]

Re: How the World Works

RichD you've never been sexier...