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[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/watching.../1/vkhYWDURtYc[/video]
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
God is not great .
Someone or something truly great would not have produced nor have allowed to exist as imperfect a human as Glenn Beck.
A question for the believers: Mankind is well over 100,000 years old according to the factual fossil records. How is it that God waited until just 2000 years ago to send in Jesus?
(This is a question Christopher Hitchens has asked).
Any takers ?
Not looking for an argument but a serious ( no, sorry I will not concede this point- IF you can be SERIOUS about any answer involving an imaginary being) answer explaining the time gap.Comment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: foolya</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/watching.../1/vkhYWDURtYc[/video] </div></div>
I'm sorry I could not finish the video - two people I find it very hard to listen to with my brain in the "on" position. What was this really about?Comment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">God is not great .
Someone or something truly great would not have produced nor have allowed to exist as imperfect a human as Glenn Beck.
A question for the believers: Mankind is well over 100,000 years old according to the factual fossil records. How is it that God waited until just 2000 years ago to send in Jesus?
(This is a question Christopher Hitchens has asked).
Any takers ?
Not looking for an argument but a serious ( no, sorry I will not concede this point- IF you can be SERIOUS about any answer involving an imaginary being) answer explaining the time gap. </div></div>
when will it occur to you that "the bible' is merely one interpretation about life/creation/god...
there are countless other religious texts & stories apart from 'the bible' , which is not one book but a collection of several different books written at different times by different authors...
your concept of 'god' is flawed, because you base it mainly on biblical interpretation & timeline therefore your conclusions will also be flawed...
you are basing your UNDERstanding on mainly one collection of books;
you can not claim "god is not great" when you have an entirely warped concept of 'god' to begin with...
you believe you dropped out of the sky magically or created yourself- which is fine- but it's kind of crazy to vehemently attack something which you nor christopher hitchens have no knowledge of...
and for the record- i do not buy into foolya's concept of god either...
most of the big religions are simply brainwashing people right nowComment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">God is not great .
Someone or something truly great would not have produced nor have allowed to exist as imperfect a human as Glenn Beck.
A question for the believers: Mankind is well over 100,000 years old according to the factual fossil records. How is it that God waited until just 2000 years ago to send in Jesus?
(This is a question Christopher Hitchens has asked).
Any takers ?
Not looking for an argument but a serious ( no, sorry I will not concede this point- IF you can be SERIOUS about any answer involving an imaginary being) answer explaining the time gap. </div></div>
when will it occur to you that "the bible' is merely one interpretation about life/creation/god...
there are countless other religious texts & stories apart from 'the bible' , which is not one book but a collection of several different books written at different times by different authors...
your concept of 'god' is flawed, because you base it mainly on biblical interpretation & timeline therefore your conclusions will also be flawed...
you are basing your UNDERstanding on mainly one collection of books;
you can not claim "god is not great" when you have an entirely warped concept of 'god' to begin with...
you believe you dropped out of the sky magically or created yourself- which is fine- but it's kind of crazy to vehemently attack something which you nor christopher hitchens have no knowledge of...
and for the record- i do not buy into foolya's concept of god either...
most of the big religions are simply brainwashing people right now </div></div>
jah_yout,
I take my concept of God from what the common beliefs are as to what or who God is.
If my ideas are twisted, it is because the belief in imaginary, invisible super being is twisted in its logic. Since there is no God, God can take whatever form any one person thinks it is. Deists think God made the universe and left for parts unknown.
Theists believe in that personal sort of God you have to pray to and who hears and answers your prayers.
As to both Hitchens and I attacking something about which we know nothing: religion and God, I would invite you to watch any and all the Hitchens Debate videos on You Tube. I double dog dare you to watch them.
If you are a form of Deist, and find much of the current organized religions to be heretical or misleading, I think you will be in agreement with much of what Hitchens has to say.
If you are a Theist and believe in the man in the sky and the necessity for a celestial dictator and prayers and sacraments and mumbo-jumbo, then your experiencing of Hitchens will be a far less pleasant event.
Hitchens talks circles around all the clergy with whom he debates in the You Tube videos and cites chapter and verse from all the holy books in doing so.
Look, As I write this I'm thinking I don't really want this argument. I know you have a certain belief in a god or God and that belief is an unshakable part of you. That faith is not swayed by logical argument to the opposite (atheist) side and in fact research has shown that those of faith are driven deeper into that faith by (logical) arguments from anti--theists.
So we are both talking to stone walls here. You will never convince me that God exists and I do not expect you to soon understand that he doesn't.
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take my concept of God from what the common beliefs are as to what or who God is.</div></div>
to me it seems you take it 98% of the time from the <span style="font-style: italic">christian</span> concept of 'god'...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If my ideas are twisted, it is because the belief in imaginary, invisible super being is twisted in its logic.</div></div>
this is true in the sense that it has never been proven that there are invisible beings in existence
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since there is no God</div></div>,
this is what i have a problem with...when one makes a definitive statement regarding an unknown entity...at this time in human existence, we have not proven whether 'god' exists or not...let alone the nature & manifestation of 'god'...we simply do not know---so it is ridiculous at best for one to state "there is no god"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">God can take whatever form any one person thinks it is</div></div>.
this is true as far as the way we imagine a greater power...in your case god may turn out to be a computer or robot...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Deists think God made the universe and left for parts unknown.
Theists believe in that personal sort of God you have to pray to and who hears and answers your prayers.</div></div>
not everything in this universe fits into neat little pre-packaged categories...let me guess- the third category of humans is atheists---so humans can be classified into three neat categories--- i don't think so;
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As to both Hitchens and I attacking something about which we know nothing: religion and God,</div></div>
this is different--- i have no issue with attacking religion-- but you attacked 'god'...
i prefer when god & religion are distinguished one from the other;
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would invite you to watch any and all the Hitchens Debate videos on You Tube. I double dog dare you to watch them. </div></div>
i have seen many of hitchens' debates, the most recent being a debate with chris hedges- who also does not believe in creationism- good debate;
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are a form of Deist, and find much of the current organized religions to be heretical or misleading, I think you will be in agreement with much of what Hitchens has to say.</div></div>
i don't put a label on myself as far as concept of higher power, but i do find many concepts in organized religion utterly foolish
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are a Theist and believe in the man in the sky and the necessity for a celestial dictator and prayers and sacraments and mumbo-jumbo, then your experiencing of Hitchens will be a far less pleasant event.</div></div>
that is presuming all these things you just mentioned necessarily go together and can't be far more nuanced & broken down further as far as their significance...one can dismiss the concept of man in the sky & still debate hitchens on some of his conceptions..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hitchens talks circles around all the clergy with whom he debates in the You Tube videos and cites chapter and verse from all the holy books in doing so.</div></div>
not hard to do considering how flawed many of the interpretations of holy texts (& the people doing the interpretation) are...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look, As I write this I'm thinking I don't really want this argument</div></div>.
neither do i
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know you have a certain belief in a god or God and that belief is an unshakable part of you. </div></div>
true- that is correct...but i qualify that by saying my concept of 'god' is probably far different than your concept of 'god'...
my concept is not based on any particular religious text or allegorical story...although i try to keep them all in mind- to pick sense from nonsense...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That faith is not swayed by logical argument to the opposite (atheist) side </div></div>
this is disingenous as it implies that logic is the sole domain of atheists, which is of course totally false...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and in fact research has shown that those of faith are driven deeper into that faith by (logical) arguments from anti--theists. </div></div>
i have already shown you (in previous arguments) that you are also a person of faith since you trust in a concept (no creator, no 'god', no intelligent design) that has never been proven--- you accept it by intelligent reasoning of possible causes & effects, & scientific theories - & have faith that your hypothesis is correct;
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So we are both talking to stone walls here. You will never convince me that God exists and I do not expect you to soon understand that he doesn't.</div></div>
that arrogant statement nonwithstanding--
show me <span style="font-weight: bold">proof</span> that god does not exist and i will understand..until then you are a person of faith same as me
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
and for the record- i do not buy into foolya's concept of god either...
most of the big religions are simply brainwashing people right now </div></div>
And religion is not God!
A question for the believers: Mankind is well over 100,000 years old according to the factual fossil records. How is it that God waited until just 2000 years ago to send in Jesus?
(This is a question Christopher Hitchens has asked).</div></div>
How long was God supposed to wait? And weren't there many prophets and Men of God long before Jesus?
Some people really do chat fart.
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
jc, broadsides against organised religion aside, a position on which we differ little, I find your certitude with regards to existential matters that cannot be proven one way another interesting. Some would say it is the flip side of religious fundamentalism.Comment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some would say it is the flip side of religious fundamentalism.
</div></div>
Agreed!Comment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
I think it is amusing that believers seem to want to make anti-theism a religion.Comment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
I take my concept of God from what the common beliefs are as to what or who God is.
to me it seems you take it 98% of the time from the christian concept of 'god'...
Response: Well, that perception is the prevailing one in our society. An omniscient but illogical, benevolent but cruel, patriarchal and misogynist, omnipotent and impotent invisible super being whom you pray to and who hears you.
.
Quote:
If my ideas are twisted, it is because the belief in imaginary, invisible super being is twisted in its logic.
this is true in the sense that it has never been proven that there are invisible beings in existence
Response: So the existence of God cannot be proven?
Quote:
Since there is no God
,
this is what i have a problem with...when one makes a definitive statement regarding an unknown entity...at this time in human existence, we have not proven whether 'god' exists or not...let alone the nature & manifestation of 'god'...we simply do not know---so it is ridiculous at best for one to state "there is no god"...
Response: If God did not exist we would have to make him out to be what we imagine him to be. This seem to be what has occurred given the varied descriptions and attributes assigned to God. Man created God. Man has created many gods, 99% of which are no longer worshipped.or recognized as gods.
Quote:
God can take whatever form any one person thinks it is
.
this is true as far as the way we imagine a greater power...in your case god may turn out to be a computer or robot...
Response:
In my way of thinking, humanity will eventually achieve the powers it currently attributes to God.
God is not required in the future that I see.
Just as children grow up and leave their parents, so too will humanity finally grow out of its need for the belief in God or anything or anyone RULING us.
Quote:
Deists think God made the universe and left for parts unknown.
Theists believe in that personal sort of God you have to pray to and who hears and answers your prayers.
not everything in this universe fits into neat little pre-packaged categories...let me guess- the third category of humans is atheists---so humans can be classified into three neat categories--- i don't think so;
Response;
That division is between believers in a western God. It does not include atheists or members of other religions that have a supreme being other than God and the Trinitarian sort of religious practice.
There are only two kinds of people: Those who finish what they start.
Quote:
As to both Hitchens and I attacking something about which we know nothing: religion and God,
this is different--- i have no issue with attacking religion-- but you attacked 'god'...
i prefer when god & religion are distinguished one from the other;
Response:
I believe I did make that distinction when discussing Deists and Theists.
Deists believe in God currently on leave.
Theists believe in a personal God (and religious ceremonies, prayers, churches, clergy.)
i have seen many of hitchens' debates, the most recent being a debate with chris hedges- who also does not believe in creationism- good debate;
Response:
Watching a few Hitchens debates several times a week has become a habit and made me far less tolerant of Theists so effective is Hitchens' often savage attacks on God and religion. It is well for the religion business that believers are not swayed by logical argument.
Quote:
If you are a form of Deist, and find much of the current organized religions to be heretical or misleading, I think you will be in agreement with much of what Hitchens has to say.
i don't put a label on myself as far as concept of higher power, but i do find many concepts in organized religion utterly foolish
Response:
Was there, is there anything point Hitchens has argued with which you disagree or could counter ?
Quote:
If you are a Theist and believe in the man in the sky and the necessity for a celestial dictator and prayers and sacraments and mumbo-jumbo, then your experiencing of Hitchens will be a far less pleasant event.
that is presuming all these things you just mentioned necessarily go together and can't be far more nuanced & broken down further as far as their significance...one can dismiss the concept of man in the sky & still debate hitchens on some of his
Response:
All those things DO go together: belief in a God who orders your life, prayers, singing, prayers in Latin, priestly exhortations all part of what many consider heresy and which atheists consider to be examples of the hollowness, the trappings without connection to the meaning, of religion.
Quote:
Hitchens talks circles around all the clergy with whom he debates in the You Tube videos and cites chapter and verse from all the holy books in doing so.
not hard to do considering how flawed many of the interpretations of holy texts (& the people doing the interpretation) are...Quo
Response:
The Bible was written by men inspired by God.
However, God being omniscient would have worded everything so that his thinking would be perfectly clear to all of his creations. Such is far from being the case .
So either the Bible was written by men and therefore very flawed or God is/was not omniscient.
te:
Look, As I write this I'm thinking I don't really want this argument
.
neither do i
Quote:
I know you have a certain belief in a god or God and that belief is an unshakable part of you.
true- that is correct...but i qualify that by saying my concept of 'god' is probably far different than your concept of 'god'...
my concept is not based on any particular religious text or allegorical story...although i try to keep them all in mind- to pick sense from nonsense...
Response:
You have a belief in some sort of invisible omniscient, perhaps omnipotent being?
I do not have a personal concept of God.
You would have to define your concept of what God is to you for me to understand what YOU mean by God.
It is very much like the common usage of the word "communist" in that the word means different things to different people .
Still, it usually boils down to a belief in an unprovable God or super being.
Quote:
That faith is not swayed by logical argument to the opposite (atheist) side
this is disingenous as it implies that logic is the sole domain of atheists, which is of course totally false...
Response:
Atheists do not have a lock on logic. There are lots of instances where believers can utilize logic to explain what they believe BUT not when it comes to the belief in an invisible God. Hitchens' debates with all manner of clergy and theologians in which he always comes out UNTOUCHED is proof of that.
It is not that the argument are even close. Hitchens just walks right through the arguments of the faithful.
Quote:
and in fact research has shown that those of faith are driven deeper into that faith by (logical) arguments from anti--theists.
i have already shown you (in previous arguments) that you are also a person of faith since you trust in a concept (no creator, no 'god', no intelligent design) that has never been proven--- you accept it by intelligent reasoning of possible causes & effects, & scientific theories - & have faith that your hypothesis is correct;
Response:
Factual evidence obviates my need to have faith.
Faith is the suspension of logic until or unless it agrees with religious dogma.
Quote:
So we are both talking to stone walls here. You will never convince me that God exists and I do not expect you to soon understand that he doesn't.
that arrogant statement nonwithstanding--
show me proof that god does not exist and i will understand..until then you are a person of faith same as me
Response,
Arrogance abounds. How dare you call me a person of faith. I take nothing on faith which as explained above is the suspension of logic in order to maintain belief in the highly implausible.
As for proving that something that does not exist does not, in fact, exist is not possible to do since you cannot get factual, physical evidence of something that does not exist.
It falls on the believers to prove the existence of God and not for the atheists to disprove it.
Ah, but then belief in God is a matter of FAITH isn't it?
_________________________
babylon a listen from near and far
don't even go ask dem what dem listening forComment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it is amusing that believers seem to want to make anti-theism a religion.
</div></div> it fits some definitions...
ETA..and you are finding more and more evangalistsWhen its hot in the jungle of peace I go swimming in the ocean of love.....Comment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
jc: If my ideas are twisted, it is because the belief in imaginary, invisible super being is twisted in its logic.
jy: this is true in the sense that it has never been proven that there are invisible beings in existence
jc: So the existence of God cannot be proven?
no it can not be proven...this is not new- i have said this all along...
where you lose me is when you seem to imply that it has been <span style="font-weight: bold">proven</span> that there is no god...
if you have proof that there is no 'god' or higher force often labeled as 'god' then i asked you to refer me to that proof...
since you nor any other human can prove that there is no such being or force, i maintain my stance that you also depend on your faith to substantiate your feeling that no higher power/ being exists...
i don't know of any way to explain this clearer;
i take the stance that we don't know because it has not been proven either way....
you take the stance that there is no god and you are absolutely certain of that despite lack of proof to support your stance...
sounds remarkably like faith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It falls on the believers to prove the existence of God and not for the atheists to disprove it.</div></div>
nonsense!
this is such muddled logic; "<span style="font-style: italic">I know God does not exist because you can not prove that God exists</span>" is equivalent to "I know God exists because you can not prove that God does not exist"...
you also have the burden of proof since you are making a statement...
you're better off with "I don't Know" ----but you won't admit that because atheist fundamentalism is as strong as religious fundamentalismComment
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Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for proving that something that does not exist does not, in fact, exist is not possible to do since you cannot get factual, physical evidence of something that does not exist.</div></div>
circulus in probandoComment
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