Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

[johnnycakes]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

Occam's Razor again:
The simplest,less complicated answer is most often the answer.

It is more logical to presume that an imaginary, invisible being does not exist because there is no proof than it is to have to go to great lengths of faith to presume and explain the existence of such a being.

[andronian2]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

Actually, I think the simplest explanation of the earth and humanity is creation by higher beings.
Because nobody has come up with a simple and credible explanation for the origin of life that doesn't involve intelligence.
Given the microscopic complexity of even the simplest forms, 'chance' just doesn't seem to cut it

Maybe It is because of the simplicity of the creator concept that almost every civilization past and present has a variation of it.
After all, it is in line with our common experiences...houses and the things in them don't come into existence without a builder.

But I'll admit that even this conclusion gives rise to many more questions which are difficult to answer.
Because if there is an intelligence, we have to ask not only 'whats' but also 'whys'.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

Andronian,

Scientists have already taken basic Earth chemicals, subjected them to electricity and created amino acids which are one of the building blocks of life. These were the same chemicals that existed when life first appeared on the planet. This mixing of chemicals was done with human intelligence and not magic

As said before just because we have not created life YET does not at all mean that we will not.


And if there was a Creator, who created the Creator?

We are approaching some vast leaps of technology and the creation of some basic life forms in the near future is far more likely than is the Second Coming.

[R_C]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This mixing of chemicals was done with human intelligence (and not magic.) </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are approaching some vast leaps of technology and the creation of some basic life forms..</div></div>

You've just made an argument (unwittingly I'm guessing) for intelligent design.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This mixing of chemicals was done with human intelligence (and not magic.) </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are approaching some vast leaps of technology and the creation of some basic life forms..</div></div>

You've just made an argument (unwittingly I'm guessing) for intelligent design. </div></div>



R_C,

I was making the argument for intelligent design but contrary to the popular understanding of that term, I mean intelligent design created by man with the more -than-able assistance of the exponentially advanced computers and AI within the next twenty years or so.

Read what is coming:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2048138,00.html

[andronian2]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

I think RC hit the nail on the head.

Synthesizing a few organic compounds is certainly not creating life but even that needed intelligent human beings and siginificant technology to direct the process.
So I don't see how I can comfortably say that our highly advanced, self-aware, self-repairing and self-replicating, selves are the product of blind chance?
I don't think I''ll ever buy that.

Then there's the specific suitability of this planet to sustain our lives.
It is a naturally perfect oasis in a vast desert-like universe that has utter disrepect for human needs.

So I'm pretty set on there being a creator or creators that apparently intended for us to enjoy life.
After all, sex didn't have to be so enjoyable for reproduction, food didn't have to taste so good for sustenance, and we didn't need to see millions of colours for navigation.

I think most religions start from this point and then attempt to answer the question of why life is so imperfect given all the suggestions that it shouldn't be.
This is where my certainty diminishes because we have few opportunities to verify these doctrines.

However, it seems logical that if there is intelligence, there has to be meaning and purpose behind what it has done.
And since I believe the stamp of intelligence in creation is irrefutable, it follows that there is a purpose even if it is presently unclear to us what that is.

Nontheless, I'm not overly hard on people who have arrived at different conclusions.
After all, we're all groping for answers to very hard questions.

[Derek]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: andronian2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think RC hit the nail on the head.

Synthesizing a few organic compounds is certainly not creating life but even that needed intelligent human beings and siginificant technology to direct the process.
So I don't see how I can comfortably say that our highly advanced, self-aware, self-repairing and self-replicating, selves are the product of blind chance?
I don't think I''ll ever buy that.

Then there's the specific suitability of this planet to sustain our lives.
It is a naturally perfect oasis in a vast desert-like universe that has utter disrepect for human needs.

So I'm pretty set on there being a creator or creators that apparently intended for us to enjoy life.
After all, sex didn't have to be so enjoyable for reproduction, food didn't have to taste so good for sustenance, and we didn't need to see millions of colours for navigation.

I think most religions start from this point and then attempt to answer the question of why life is so imperfect given all the suggestions that it shouldn't be.
This is where my certainty diminishes because we have few opportunities to verify these doctrines.

However, it seems logical that if there is intelligence, there has to be meaning and purpose behind what it has done.
And since I believe the stamp of intelligence in creation is irrefutable, it follows that there is a purpose even if it is presently unclear to us what that is.

Nontheless, I'm not overly hard on people who have arrived at different conclusions.
After all, we're all groping for answers to very hard questions. </div></div>

[R_C]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was making the argument for intelligent design but contrary to the popular understanding of that term, I mean intelligent design created by man with the more -than-able assistance of the exponentially advanced computers and AI within the next twenty years or so.</div></div>

Actually it's not just <span style="font-style: italic">&quot;the popular understanding&quot;</span> jc, this is what intelligent design is all about. Your attempt to redefine it on your own terms does not negate the fact that wittingly or unwittingly, you have advanced the very argument supporters of this theory make.

The thought that the order that is evident all around us can proceed out of chaos unsupervised and solely on the basis of chance and sufficient time requires a leap of faith not unlike that made by those who take the entirety of the Bible literally.

Your example of mixing chemicals to produce even rudimentary life forms illustrates that nicely.

Call back when chemicals do this on their own while scientists are asleep at home.

Or more importantly, when the chemicals were not in the lab to begin with when the scientists left work at the end of the day..

[johnnycakes]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

Those who choose to believe in an invisible magic man in the sky who created us all are welcome to do so. You do this without any proof or any sign from that creator.

Those who choose to not believe in evolution are also welcome to do so. You do so by ignoring what science is continually turning up in the fossil record in the DNA record and in the laboratory.

You all stopped believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Zeus, Grak the Volcano god etc but insist on this one last figment of your collective imaginations because you haven't yet seen through the current fraudulent belief.

You choose not to believe that we, life has evolved over several hundred millions of years of genetic mutation to be what we are today because in large part you cannot fathom that length of time. Nor do you have any deep understanding of evolution.

You've been schooled and indoctrinated to believe in God/magic all your lives and to ignore and dislike all that denies it. Had you spent as much time studying chemistry and all the other sciences tied up in evolution, magic would not have as great an appeal to you as a way of explaining life on Earth.

Again, you all cannot argue from a point of logic but only from a static point that is being shredded by the day to day and year to year scientific discoveries.

The magic theory is disappearing just as all the beliefs in the other 99% of previously existing deities have .

Evolutionary evidence on the other hand is growing and will continue furnishing a logical explanation for life's origins with the scientific evidence to back it up.

Creationists have to rely on magic, invisible omnipotent beings, legends, until the hard and undeniable scientific evidence is produced.

But saying that because (as has been done thousands of times before in human history) we don't have a ready explanation for life we will say that it was all done by magic makes no sense to me.

We don't use magic to explain anything else.
Not today.

[Derek]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually it's not just <span style="font-style: italic">&quot;the popular understanding&quot;</span> jc, this is what intelligent design is all about. Your attempt to redefine it on your own terms does not negate the fact that wittingly or unwittingly, you have advanced the very argument supporters of this theory make.

The thought that the order that is evident all around us can proceed out of chaos unsupervised and solely on the basis of chance and sufficient time requires a leap of faith not unlike that made by those who take the entirety of the Bible literally.

Your example of mixing chemicals to produce even rudimentary life forms illustrates that nicely.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt">Call back when chemicals do this on their own while scientists are asleep at home.</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Or more importantly, when the chemicals were not in the lab to begin with when the scientists left work at the end of the day</span>.. </div></div>

Very, very well said.


I don't believe in magic men in the sky, by the way.

[jah_yout]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was making the argument for intelligent design but contrary to the popular understanding of that term, I mean intelligent design created by man with the more -than-able assistance of the exponentially advanced computers and AI within the next twenty years or so.</div></div>

Actually it's not just <span style="font-style: italic">&quot;the popular understanding&quot;</span> jc, this is what intelligent design is all about. Your attempt to redefine it on your own terms does not negate the fact that wittingly or unwittingly, you have advanced the very argument supporters of this theory make.

The thought that the order that is evident all around us can proceed out of chaos unsupervised and solely on the basis of chance and sufficient time requires a leap of faith not unlike that made by those who take the entirety of the Bible literally.

Your example of mixing chemicals to produce even rudimentary life forms illustrates that nicely.

Call back when chemicals do this on their own while scientists are asleep at home.

Or more importantly, when the chemicals were not in the lab to begin with when the scientists left work at the end of the day.. </div></div>

this is so well put...
but i'm afraid my friend johnnycakes will dismiss it as a magic man in the sky...

he says computers will be god...but man created computers

[jah_yout]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But saying that because (as has been done thousands of times before in human history) we don't have a ready explanation for life we will say that it was all done by magic makes no sense to me.</div></div>

but you are saying the same thing;
you say scientists produced amino acids, a material of life, in controlled experiments attempting to ascertain the origin of life...they have not suceeded using a controlled experiment yet you are stating this happened by itself by random chance in a non-controlled environment...

this, to me, is what sounds like magic

[Derek]

Re: Your Beloved Mahdi has arrived - Yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But saying that because (as has been done thousands of times before in human history) we don't have a ready explanation for life we will say that it was all done by magic makes no sense to me.</div></div>

but you are saying the same thing;
you say scientists produced amino acids, a material of life, in controlled experiments attempting to ascertain the origin of life...they have not suceeded using a controlled experiment yet you are stating this happened by itself by random chance in a non-controlled environment...

<span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">this, to me, is what sounds like magic</span></span> </div></div>