the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

[evanovitch]

President Bill Clinton, now the UN Special Envoy to Haiti, forced Haiti to drop tariffs on imported, subsidized US rice during his time in office.

The policy wiped out Haitian rice farming and seriously damaged Haiti’s ability to be self-sufficient.

[R_C]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

Yes and Clinton was also responsible for the 'wet foot/dry foot' policy for Cuban refugees...only. So that while Cuban refugees caught at sea were returned to Cuba (wet foot) and those that made it to dry land (dry foot) were offered the opportunity to remain in the United States, with a shortened route to permanent residency and U.S.citizenship, Haitians, wet or dry, were summarily sent to a maximum security facility to await deportation hearings.

So if Haiti were to have been run by a dictator do you think their refugees would have been welcomed with open arms like the Cubans ?

And what was this about them being only "economic refugees" ? Is a communist dictatorship inherently more dangerous to life and limb than extreme poverty ?

[johnnycakes]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti


So if Haiti were to have been run by a dictator do you think their refugees would have been welcomed with open arms like the Cubans ?

And what was this about them being only "economic refugees" ? Is a communist dictatorship inherently more dangerous to life and limb than extreme poverty ?


R_C,

Haiti under the Duvaliers until recently WAS a dictatorship and far more brutal than anything in Cuba.

All the efforts to destroy Cuba are not being exerted because Cuba is a dictatorship since Cuba is far more democratic than say Mubarak's Egypt, the Saud's Saudi Arabia, Khadaffy's Libya, the murderous government in Colombia, myriad other dictatorships in the world AND what exists in the chaos that the United States created in Haiti.

The big difference is of course: the elephant in the room that most people either do not understand or ignore is the fact that Cuba's SOCIALIST economy is what is the problem for the people who own and run the United States.


Haiti is in no danger of creating either a serious (uncontrollable by the U.S. ) revolution
or a socialist economy.

It is in all essence, still a puppet state in the hemisphere.

As Noam Chomsky said, as long as the people are complacent and will agree to live miserably in the political and economic system that the United States enforces upon them, everything is fine according to both Clintons and the wealthy owners of the country who determine these policies .

[R_C]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haiti under the Duvaliers until recently WAS a dictatorship and far more brutal than anything in Cuba.</div></div>

True. But not at the time Clinton turned his back on Haitian reufgees. He had already returned Aristide to power when he signed that piece of legislation.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the efforts to destroy Cuba are not being exerted because Cuba is a dictatorship</div></div>

True. It's because Florida holds 25 votes in the electoral college.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cuba is far more democratic than say Mubarak's Egypt, the Saud's Saudi Arabia, Khadaffy's Libya, the murderous government in Colombia, myriad other dictatorships in the world AND what exists in the chaos that the United States created in Haiti.</div></div>

You forgot China.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big difference is of course: the elephant in the room that most people either do not understand or ignore is the fact that Cuba's SOCIALIST economy is what is the problem for the people who own and run the United States.</div></div>

Cuba is a problem primarily for older Cuban-Americans in Florida. And they vote early and often. (see college: electoral, above) The rest of the country neither cares nor knows anything about Cuba any longer…and wouldn’t know what the word socialist meant if it bit them on the [censored].

[evanovitch]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haiti under the Duvaliers until recently WAS a dictatorship and far more brutal than anything in Cuba.</div></div>

True. But not at the time Clinton turned his back on Haitian reufgees.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the efforts to destroy Cuba are not being exerted because Cuba is a dictatorship</div></div>

True. It's because Florida holds 25 votes in the electoral college.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cuba is far more democratic than say Mubarak's Egypt, the Saud's Saudi Arabia, Khadaffy's Libya, the murderous government in Colombia, myriad other dictatorships in the world AND what exists in the chaos that the United States created in Haiti.</div></div>

You forgot China.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big difference is of course: the elephant in the room that most people either do not understand or ignore is the fact that Cuba's SOCIALIST economy is what is the problem for the people who own and run the United States.</div></div>

Cuba is a problem primarily for older Cuban-Americans in Florida. And they vote early and often. (see college: electoral, above) The rest of the country neither cares nor knows anything about Cuba any longer…and wouldn’t know what the word socialist meant if it bit them on the [censored].


</div></div>

[johnnycakes]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

Cuba is a problem primarily for older Cuban-Americans in Florida. And they vote early and often. (see college: electoral, above) The rest of the country neither cares nor knows anything about Cuba any longer…and wouldn’t know what the word socialist meant if it bit them on the [censored].


R-C,

All true and it begs the question:
If not many outside of the exile Cuban community cares about continuing the war against Cuba, how is it being perpetuated and why?

I'll answer the &quot;why&quot;. Because Cuba's successful socialist economy (which has enabled Cuba to survive the U.S aggression this far) is a threat to capitalism and the obscene wealth and privilege of the super rich.

[R_C]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

jc, you seem to be caught up in some kind of time warp my friend. The days of Cuba being a threat to anyone are long gone.

[queenb]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

I don't think Johnnycakes is talking about a physical threat, but rather a threat to the &quot;democratic&quot; basis of the US. Unbounded untethered capitalism is an out-dated concept; because it works on the theory that government and/or politicians are really acting in the best behalf of the people. The almighty dollar is king in the US, we no longer care for the welfare of our citizens, but claim to care for all the citizens around the world. Who in their right mind would believe such a claim? Remember, a few weeks ago I outlined what I think could be done. I am skeptical of a socialist government, just as I am of democracy. Both types of government depend on the good character of those in charge. Perhaps an amalgam of democratic capitalism/socialism would work; one in which leaders are periodically replaced with term limits and elections, but large corporations are restricted in growth and profit-taking. I remember the break-up of Ma Bell into a multitude of smaller corporations. Now one by one super-corportations are forming with ever larger profit-taking and fewer and fewer social programs being supported.

[R_C]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think Johnnycakes is talking about a physical threat.</div></div>

neither was I.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but rather a threat to the &quot;democratic&quot; basis of the US.</div></div>

That is about as far fetched as the idea being sold to the public that a man living in a cave in the hills bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan is a threat to the US...or Condi Rice and George Bush's claim that Saddam Hussein was capable of firing nuclear weapons into the United States.

Let me say it again. The embargo is in place because every four years both parties need to pander to the Cuban-American voting bloc who are waiting to go to the great Malecon in the sky. Nobody else cares. They care about fake wrestling, being the first in line outside Best Buy on Black Friday, March Madness, Charlie Sheen and who Tiger was sleeping with. This generation of Americans and their parents are the most politically ignorant in history. They..don't...care...about...Cuba.

[johnnycakes]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jc, you seem to be caught up in some kind of time warp my friend. The days of Cuba being a threat to anyone are long gone.
</div></div>



R_C,

The Cuban exile community does not run the country. It does have influence but not to the extent that the United States would run a war against Cuba for 50 years that costs untold millions.

Perhaps I have a different perspective on the subject having concentrated on the U.S's anti-socialist foreign policy for some 40 years.

When the embargo was put in place it was done so to make the Cuban PEOPLE suffer enough that they would toss out their socialist economy which is indeed the same threat to the U.S wealthy ( who run the government) as was the nascent Soviet Union in 1917 , Iran in 1953 Guatemala in 1954, Chile in 1973, Korea in the 50's, Vietnam for 23 years or so, Grenada in 1983, Patrice Lumumba, The Angolan government in the 70's and 80's, Nicaragua in the 80's -for starters.

I can provide you with sources for the complete list of U.S wars, interventions and activities against socialist countries if you'd like which will show you just how much of a threat EACH socialist move in the world was and is considered by those who run and own the United States.


That policy remains unchanged for over 80 years and Cuba is indeed the biggest target now followed by Hugo Chavez and the other new left governments elected in Latin America.

You may not think that Cuba is a threat but those in power in this country and in Jamaica as well sure do.

[R_C]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

j.c., Cuba is indeed a potential threat to Jamaica. (you are shifting the direction of the discussion again by the way). Our first (or second, not sure which it is as we speak) biggest foreign exchange earner could potentially collapse after the Castro brothers leave the stage if their tourism product goes head to head with ours.

I do not dispute the historical accuracy of the information you gave us above. But it is just that, history. With the demise of the Soviet Union and with Russia and China now firmly in the grip of neocapitalism, the thought that the crumbling socialist economy and infrastructure of Cuba represents a threat to capitalism is far fetched. The socialist bogeyman to the south is on life support, only to be resuscitated every four years for consumption on the airwaves in Miami-Dade County....and for not much longer.

[johnnycakes]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">j.c., Cuba is indeed a potential threat to Jamaica. (you are shifting the direction of the discussion again by the way). Our first (or second, not sure which it is as we speak) biggest foreign exchange earner could potentially collapse after the Castro brothers leave the stage if their tourism product goes head to head with ours.

I do not dispute the historical accuracy of the information you gave us above. But it is just that, history. With the demise of the Soviet Union and with Russia and China now firmly in the grip of neocapitalism, the thought that the crumbling socialist economy and infrastructure of Cuba represents a threat to capitalism is far fetched. The socialist bogeyman to the south is on life support, only to be resuscitated every four years for consumption on the airwaves in Miami-Dade County....and for not much longer. </div></div>



R_C,

Cuban socialism is deemed by many to be a failure and indeed that is what those who oppose socialism in the bloody way the United States and the Western allies have done it would have you believe.

What you and most Americans/Westerners who have been brainwashed fail to take into account is that Cuba might be in some economic difficulty but nothing like Jamaica or any other Third World country of equal per capita income.

I needn't go through all the statistics, safest place in the hemisphere, highest HDI, excellent educational systems, minimal joblessness, no drug problems etc.

AND AND AND ....the Cubans accomplished this all the while its chief sponsor disappeared and all the while the United States was waging a war to destroy it,


Cuba alone in history has managed to survive the attack of the empire and has done so BECAUSE of its strict socialist economy. Should the United States halt its war you could then make a fair judgement on whether or not Cuba's economic system works but the United States will not allow you that opportunity for the obvious reason and that is that socialism works.
( Soviets went from near complete destruction in 1945 to 2nd best economy in 30 years.)


The truth is socialism works very well and that it is a threat because of the example it sets. This has always been the case.

That the United States has been waging war on Cuba for some 50 years should be adequate proof of that.

As for China and Russia, their conversion to cowboy capitalism has done what it always does, it created a handful of billionaires and hundreds of millions of poor..
They will not survive the collapse of capitalism either and revolution is probable (IMO) in both countries within 15 years. Being Stalinist ( socialism in one state) they were never the threat the internationalist Cubans are.

And, yes IMO it is true that if the United States would allow its citizens to travel to Cuba, Jamaica would lose a ton of the tourist business.

Cuba is the safest place in the hemisphere and Jamaica is not.


As for Haiti, it is a failed state. It calls for massive aid which the capitalist countries are not willing to provide to one of its subservient nations.
(The failed poor Cubans have around 500 medical staff there.)

[R_C]

Re: the irony of Clinton being special envoy to Haiti

That notwithstanding, my point simply is that America is populated by people who for generations now have suckled at the twin teats of greed and consumerism. A Cuban style economy does not accommodate that and so it holds no interest for them. They don't care about socialism. There is absolutely no “threat” that a groundswell of demand for socialism will ever take place in the United States. And that is not the basis for the embargo in 2011.