The Nobel Peace Prize President

[jah_yout]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

personally i thought giving the nobel peace prize to a sitting war president was a joke;

but what concerns me more is the direction we are being led by succesive american presidents who also set the tone of how the population thinks..

it is very alarming the attitude we have as americans that our country is the great representative of god on earth...
that whatever we do is justified...that we will simply kill anyone who gets in our way whether they are right or wrong...

yes blood vengeance & revenge satisfies the masses, but in the long run we are simply reinforcing the idea that murder is the solution to murder...

but revenge begets more revenge...murder begets more murder..
and one day all nations must realize that no nation is greater than the most high...

that all empires must fall---
especially when they lose legitimacy;
the killing of bin laden who had not been active in terror in almost a decade does very little to end terrorism because terrorism can not end...
so while we celebrate "killing terror"
just remember that someone else out there sees us as terrorists and is already plotting their own revenge...
and the beat goes on

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you think Obama is a moral person who just happens to be ordering the killings of <span style="color: #FF0000">hundreds of thousands</span> of people than you yourself have a problem in distinguishing morality and immorality which for a devoted religious person seems strange.

Feel free to point out errors of fact in the article if you'd care to make any serious comment and not just attack the messenger .</div></div>
Obama is ordering the killing of <span style="font-style: italic">hundreds of thousands of people</span>? Can you post some figures that show that he has done this?

[johnnycakes]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

Evanovitch:
u bring nothing to my attention that i am not aware of...however, u r being disingenuous wen u apply traits to Obama which r US FOREIGN POLICY STALWARTS...


Evanovitch,
The president was ELECTED to be the leader of the country and its foreign policy. To coin a phrase, HE is the decider. He determines the direction of the country and he was chosen by the Democrats to do exactly what he is doing.
Obama is one of them. He thinks like them or he would never have been nominated.
Had he expressed any interest in making any serious changes in U.S imperial policy , he would never have been nominated.

You're naive to think otherwise and your pol/sci course needs to refund your money
and/or recall your diploma.


EVANOVITCH:
u learn, or use to learn in US University Pol Sci courses that they r ongle three types of Presidency...the one that seems to garner the most approval is the IMPERIAL presidency which is wen di one in di WH , to borrow a president's catch phrase , carries out a 'BIG STICK: foreign policy


Evanovitch,
That &quot;big stick&quot; foreign policy as YOU call it is a euphemism for a murderous imperialist foreign policy. No competent or rational professor would use that expression to describe something as clear as U.S imperialism.

Evanovitch:
the attempt by this president as was the attempt by Jimmy Carter to put the well being of Americans first, is stymied by the overwhelming need it would seem to be players on the world stage, even to the detriment of the populace's wellbeing...

Evanovitch,

&quot;.....The overwhelming NEED it would seem to be PLAYERS etc...?????


Evanovitch,

Could you possibly explain what that &quot;overwhelming need&quot; would be to be a PLAYER?
to the detriment of the world ?

Evanovitch:
ur willingness to decry while forestalling any real discourse on the reality of life in CUBA is telling many a way...i could echo that in that respect


Evanovitch,
I have been recommending the havanatimes.org website for months now. It is a source of serious criticism of life in Cuba. NOT ONE boardie has told me that they read the diaries and articles at that website.
That the Cubans have problems is no secret because the US media and government play up every problem Cuba has in order to discredit the revolution.
If I present the Cuban side of things to put the lie to what the U.S gov't and media is saying, I am only playing catch-up with the lies already internalized/believed by most people.

And let me make this point, there may not be freedom of the press in Cuba as we know it but from what I've read at havanatimes.com, the Cuban people are completely in the know as to what their government is doing and why and especially in foreign affairs and not surprisingly since the US/European war on Cuba affects all their lives.

Conversely, the people of the United States with complete freedom of the press, speech and access to the web are abysmally ignorant of the U.S foreign policy that is waging war on Cuba. Most would have no idea of what the United States is doing to Cuba and why or in Afghanistan or Somalia or elsewhere..

The Cuban government has nothing to hide from its people.
The United States has some very bad doings to hide from its people and does it quite well utilizing mind control all the while under freedom of the press and speech.

Try this.
Try to find a lie in any speech given by say Fidel or Raul to the Cuban people in the past 50 years.
Then see how many lies or misleading statements you can remember that our past and present presidents have told us to justify unjustifiable atrocities.

Let me know what you find. I've more or less done that research for the past 40 years but your fresh perspective would be welcome.

[johnnycakes]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

&quot;Obama is ordering the killing of hundreds of thousands of people? Can you post some figures that show that he has done this?&quot;



40,

U.S. imperialism is an ongoing process. Past presidents have quashed nascent revolutions that would bring socialism and other social reforms like land reform and union organizing to the poor.
A socialist country takes care of its people and profits are secondary.

In all the countries of Africa where the United States has intervened to prevent socialism and reforms that would be detrimental to U.S profits and hegemony, people die by the tens of millions every year from the effects of U.S-imposed economic systems .

Obama is carrying the standard now and every time a baby dies from starvation in Africa it is Obama who continues to enforce the policies that kill that baby.

He's the president. He has ultimate power but he's no less a murderous imperialist than were ANY of his predecessors. He COULD change things were he of a mind to do that sort of thing but he was elected by big money to disregard dead babies with bloated bellies and concentrate on keeping the wealthy wealthy.

AND... if hundreds of thousands have not yet been killed directly by U.S forces under C-I-C Obama, he still has a year and a half to get his personal score up.

He can do it.

Yes he can.

[johnnycakes]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">personally i thought giving the nobel peace prize to a sitting war president was a joke;

but what concerns me more is the direction we are being led by succesive american presidents who also set the tone of how the population thinks..

it is very alarming the attitude we have as americans that our country is the great representative of god on earth...
that whatever we do is justified...that we will simply kill anyone who gets in our way whether they are right or wrong...

yes blood vengeance &amp; revenge satisfies the masses, but in the long run we are simply reinforcing the idea that murder is the solution to murder...

but revenge begets more revenge...murder begets more murder..
and one day all nations must realize that no nation is greater than the most high...

that all empires must fall---
especially when they lose legitimacy;
the killing of bin laden who had not been active in terror in almost a decade does very little to end terrorism because terrorism can not end...
so while we celebrate &quot;killing terror&quot;
just remember that someone else out there sees us as terrorists and is already plotting their own revenge...
and the beat goes on </div></div>


Very well said. jah-yout

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;Obama is ordering the killing of hundreds of thousands of people? Can you post some figures that show that he has done this?&quot;

40,

U.S. imperialism is an ongoing process. Past presidents have quashed nascent revolutions that would bring socialism and other social reforms like land reform and union organizing to the poor.
A socialist country takes care of its people and profits are secondary.

In all the countries of Africa where the United States has intervened to prevent socialism and reforms that would be detrimental to U.S profits and hegemony, people die by the tens of millions every year from the effects of U.S-imposed economic systems .

Obama is carrying the standard now and every time a baby dies from starvation in Africa it is Obama who continues to enforce the policies that kill that baby.

He's the president. He has ultimate power but he's no less a murderous imperialist than were ANY of his predecessors. He COULD change things were he of a mind to do that sort of thing but he was elected by big money to disregard dead babies with bloated bellies and concentrate on keeping the wealthy wealthy.

AND... if hundreds of thousands have not yet been killed directly by U.S forces under C-I-C Obama, he still has a year and a half to get his personal score up.

He can do it.

Yes he can. </div></div>
Because our President hasn't turned America into a socialist country, where we all work for $35 bucks a month, and a bag of rice, that means that Obama has ordered the killing of hundreds of thousands of people? Only dictators have the power to order how much money each person can have.

[evanovitch]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">personally i thought giving the nobel peace prize to a sitting war president was a joke;

but what concerns me more is the direction we are being led by succesive american presidents who also set the tone of how the population thinks..

it is very alarming the attitude we have as americans that our country is the great representative of god on earth...
that whatever we do is justified...that we will simply kill anyone who gets in our way whether they are right or wrong...

yes blood vengeance &amp; revenge satisfies the masses, but in the long run we are simply reinforcing the idea that murder is the solution to murder...

but revenge begets more revenge...murder begets more murder..
and one day all nations must realize that no nation is greater than the most high...

that all empires must fall---
especially when they lose legitimacy;
the killing of bin laden who had not been active in terror in almost a decade does very little to end terrorism because terrorism can not end...
so while we celebrate &quot;killing terror&quot;
just remember that someone else out there sees us as terrorists and is already plotting their own revenge...
and the beat goes on </div></div>

this has all been said time and time and time and time again on this site ...even by me....
at issue now,is that many r using racism to bemoan anyting dat OBAMA does or doesnt do as if Presidents operate in a vacuum...n den try blow smoke wen called on said bias to di man based on his race...

[johnnycakes]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

40:
Because our President hasn't turned America into a socialist country, where we all work for $35 bucks a month, and a bag of rice, that means that Obama has ordered the killing of hundreds of thousands of people? Only dictators have the power to order how much money each person can have.


40,

You cannot be that out of touch with reality that you don't know that the U.S is responsible for the deaths, directly and indirectly of millions of innocents for what they possess. This is with the leadership of whomever is president.

You are correct in saying that only dictators can have the power to order how much money a person can have. You need only go to your employer and tell him that you need more money to live a decent life to see that capitalism is a dictatorship of the dollar. BY LAW corporations have to minimize their expenses including paying the workers more and increase the pay out to the investors.
So you do have a dictatorship of sorts and it's legal. They do determine how much money, what kind of house you can afford, what neighborhood you will have to live in.

We do not have some 25% of the people living in poverty in this richest of countries because we are a democracy. Do you know anyone in favor of 25% of the people around us living without the necessities of life through no fault of their own but because that's the way the country is run by the dictatorial corporations?

One more time:

The corporations determine which candidates will get their support/money.
Anti-capitalists get no funding.
Pro-business people (all the presidents) got their payoff.
The payback is the passing of laws that give the corporate dictators everything they want.
That includes below living wage pay.
Try fighting with WalMart or McDonald's because you're only making around $300. a week take home.
They'll laugh at you.
They have the government on their side.
What've you got?




Your second trip out into fantasyland has two glaring discrepancies. First, no president by himself turn the USA into a country with a socialist economy. It takes a mass movement of the people in any country to do that and in the United States at the moment with the media mind control that would not be allowed to happen.

Second, WERE the United States to become socialist and the wealth to be distributed fairly every worker and poor person would live massively better than they do under capitalism. I don't know where you get that bowl of rice thinking. We are not a poor Third World country like China was or most African countries are. Even in poor Third World Cuba under attack and having lots of problems because of the outside hostility, the people there are all leading better lives than before their socialist revolution.
In the U.S some 5% of the people have about 80% of the wealth of the country. Were that to be fairly distributed, you'd have a lot more than you do now.

You don't understand this because you've been indoctrinated not to understand it.

You might even believe that Obama is a basically moral person FORCED to do bad things.

[johnnycakes]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

Evanovitch:
this has all been said time and time and time and time again on this site ...even by me....
at issue now,is that many r using racism to bemoan anyting dat OBAMA does or doesnt do as if Presidents operate in a vacuum...n den try blow smoke wen called on said bias to di man based on his race...


Evanovitch,
It is true that there is a lot of racism behind many people's criticisms of Obama and that sort of ignorance is readily recognizable and tiresome. I understand your thinking here.

Let me offer you an escape from that racism.

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet

Here you will find many articles and most of them highly critical of Obama and not one of these articles can be called racist in its content.
They will probably even more offensive to your belief in the greatness of Obama because they are strictly factual or are opinion based on facts unlike what you usually get in the media from whence you get your information.

You don't have to be a racist to find fault with Obama. You can also be a highly moral person.

What's worse, who is the greater evil ? millions of Obama fans who overlook mass murder and who will re-elect that mass murderer giving him their permission to continue his brutal wars or racists who attack him for immoral reasons?.

An apt expression fits in here:

Bun fiyah pon ALL dem.

[neutral]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

this has all been said time and time and time and time again on this site ...even by me....
at issue now,is that many r using racism to bemoan anyting dat OBAMA does or doesnt do as if Presidents operate in a vacuum...n den try blow smoke wen called on said bias to di man based on his race... </div></div>

Race or no race,...they are all the same,all US presidents tow the party line and does things &quot;in the national interest&quot;....obama is no different.

personally,I think his views and opinions now are far different than the ones he held before entering office,he is either unable to act on them,or has been briefed to such extent he was forced to go with the status quo.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40:You cannot be that out of touch with reality that you don't know that the U.S is responsible for the deaths, directly and indirectly of millions of innocents for what they possess. This is with the leadership of whomever is president.

You are correct in saying that only dictators can have the power to order how much money a person can have. You need only go to your employer and tell him that you need more money to live a decent life to see that capitalism is a dictatorship of the dollar. BY LAW corporations have to minimize their expenses including paying the workers more and increase the pay out to the investors.
So you do have a dictatorship of sorts and it's legal. They do determine how much money, what kind of house you can afford, what neighborhood you will have to live in.

We do not have some 25% of the people living in poverty in this richest of countries because we are a democracy. Do you know anyone in favor of 25% of the people around us living without the necessities of life through no fault of their own but because that's the way the country is run by the dictatorial corporations?

One more time:

The corporations determine which candidates will get their support/money.
Anti-capitalists get no funding.
Pro-business people (all the presidents) got their payoff.
The payback is the passing of laws that give the corporate dictators everything they want.
That includes below living wage pay.
Try fighting with WalMart or McDonald's because you're only making around $300. a week take home.
They'll laugh at you.
They have the government on their side.
What've you got?

Your second trip out into fantasyland has two glaring discrepancies. First, no president by himself turn the USA into a country with a socialist economy. It takes a mass movement of the people in any country to do that and in the United States at the moment with the media mind control that would not be allowed to happen.

Second, WERE the United States to become socialist and the wealth to be distributed fairly every worker and poor person would live massively better than they do under capitalism. I don't know where you get that bowl of rice thinking. We are not a poor Third World country like China was or most African countries are. Even in poor Third World Cuba under attack and having lots of problems because of the outside hostility, the people there are all leading better lives than before their socialist revolution.
In the U.S some 5% of the people have about 80% of the wealth of the country. Were that to be fairly distributed, you'd have a lot more than you do now.

You don't understand this because you've been indoctrinated not to understand it.

You might even believe that Obama is a basically moral person FORCED to do bad things.</div></div>
America's political system is far better than any of the other systems in the history of mankind. It is not perfect, but superior than any other. Northern Europeans are doing well lately, but they don't have nearly the crush of cultures like we do in the U.S. America's system has generated an explosion of wealth, and inventions, that have transformed the planet. And America's political system has endured.

Sure we have poor people here, but they doing better the poorest in most every other country. We like to complain about &quot;education today.&quot; Yet the universities in America is where students around the world long to be educated. Yes, our medical system has become impersonal and expensive as hell, but the hospitals in America are busy using the most amazing equipment and new procedures.

Johnnycakes you are now a Kurzweilian, or Singularist, and the whole technology explosion is driven by American capital. Investors who have more money to spend than you or I will earn in a hundred lifetimes, invested money in new ideas, and new products. Sometimes their investments pay of big time.

I'm a big fan of Ceasar Millan, the Dog Whisperer. He entered the U.S. illegally in 1991. He knew no one. He is 41 now, and recently had his 100th television show. The system works.

I went to my dentist recently. It's really expensive, and Im sure not everyone can afford to see such a superb practitioner. But in my lifetime dental care has sure been transformed from when all a dentist did was pull teeth, or fill cavities. My dentist makes a whole lot of money, and he takes long holidays twice a year. He only works two and a half days a week. But, the way I see it, those are his just desserts. Because it is men like him that drove those medical inventions by learning how to perform them, and by selling that product successfully for decades. That's what makes America so successful.

[lonewolf]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Race or no race,...they are all the same,all US presidents tow the party line and does things &quot;in the national interest&quot;....obama is no different.

personally,I think his views and opinions now are far different than the ones he held before entering office,he is either unable to act on them,or has been briefed to such extent he was forced to go with the status quo. </div></div>

That's exactly right, and that is why all this nonsense about racism because of someone simply disagreeing with Obama policy is rediculous. What's amusing or confusing are those that defend Obama policy, but they vehemently disagreed with Bush policy. Obama policy and Bush policy are pretty damn close.
So, that said, and making that simple observation, who is really practicing racism?
Using that criteria it would seem that those who hated bush hated him because he was white? Or are they blinded by color as it pertains to Obama policy because he is the first black president?

Natral, you don't live in the USA, as an unbiased opinion, what is your take?

[lonewolf]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

Fortylegz, very nicely stated!

[RichD]

Re: am curious...are u in ur element with now having

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lonrwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Race or no race,...they are all the same,all US presidents tow the party line and does things &quot;in the national interest&quot;....obama is no different.

personally,I think his views and opinions now are far different than the ones he held before entering office,he is either unable to act on them,or has been briefed to such extent he was forced to go with the status quo. </div></div>

That's exactly right, and that is why all this nonsense about racism because of someone simply disagreeing with Obama policy is rediculous. What's amusing or confusing are those that defend Obama policy, but they vehemently disagreed with Bush policy. Obama policy and Bush policy are pretty damn close.
So, that said, and making that simple observation, who is really practicing racism?
Using that criteria it would seem that those who hated bush hated him because he was white? Or are they blinded by color as it pertains to Obama policy because he is the first black president?

Natral, you don't live in the USA, as an unbiased opinion, what is your take?
</div></div>

there is opposition and then there is what we see now ..this opposition has alot of undertones...rather than just focus on opposing his position they try to deligitimize him ..claim that somehow he is not legally president.
As you say his policy has not significantly differed form the previous presidents however you hear commentators talking it being understandable to question his legitimacy because this president does things that are &quot;fundamentally un-American&quot;????

one has to ask what is different in this case ...