indefinite detention bill

[RichD]

Re: indefinite detention bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you would be an excellent lawyer for the govenment...
it seems the gov't can do no wrong in your eyes-- as long as a &quot;black&quot; face is its mascot



quote from RT:

i guess they didn't do their research either...certainly not enough to stump the gov'ts attorney

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<span style="font-size: 11pt">Exactly 220 years to the date after the Bill of Rights was ratified, the US Senate today voted 86 to 13 in favor of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, allowing the indefinite detention and torture of Americans.
After a back-and-forth in recent days between both the Senate and House yielded intense criticism from Americans attempting to hold onto their Constitutional rights, NDAA FY2012 is now on its way to the White House, where yesterday <span style="font-weight: bold">the Obama administration revealed that the president would not veto the legislation</span>, cancelling out a warning he offered less than a month earlier.
Obama has finally brought about change to America, but it’s nothing to be hopeful about.
Speaking before the Senate this afternoon, Sen. Lindsey Graham (Rep-SC) told his colleagues, “I hope you believe America is part of the battlefield.” The United States is at war, he insisted, and <span style="font-weight: bold">anyone alleged to be in opposition to the US government’s game will now be subjected to military-style detention indefinitely</span>. </span>
http://rt.com/usa/news/indefinite-de...ll-senate-905/ </div></div>


again i wall ask you to post the offensive portion of the legislation..my mind is open...i deal with facts....i will eat crow and join you if you provide the facts.

RT has an agenda...FNC has and Agenda...ABC has an agenda...Huffinton Post has an agenda......the facts are the facts ...let them speak for themself.

[jah_yout]

Re: indefinite detention bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you would be an excellent lawyer for the govenment...
it seems the gov't can do no wrong in your eyes-- as long as a &quot;black&quot; face is its mascot



quote from RT:

i guess they didn't do their research either...certainly not enough to stump the gov'ts attorney

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<span style="font-size: 11pt">Exactly 220 years to the date after the Bill of Rights was ratified, the US Senate today voted 86 to 13 in favor of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, allowing the indefinite detention and torture of Americans.
After a back-and-forth in recent days between both the Senate and House yielded intense criticism from Americans attempting to hold onto their Constitutional rights, NDAA FY2012 is now on its way to the White House, where yesterday <span style="font-weight: bold">the Obama administration revealed that the president would not veto the legislation</span>, cancelling out a warning he offered less than a month earlier.
Obama has finally brought about change to America, but it’s nothing to be hopeful about.
Speaking before the Senate this afternoon, Sen. Lindsey Graham (Rep-SC) told his colleagues, “I hope you believe America is part of the battlefield.” The United States is at war, he insisted, and <span style="font-weight: bold">anyone alleged to be in opposition to the US government’s game will now be subjected to military-style detention indefinitely</span>. </span>
http://rt.com/usa/news/indefinite-de...ll-senate-905/ </div></div>


again i wall ask you to post the offensive portion of the legislation..my mind is open...i deal with facts....i will eat crow and join you if you provide the facts.

RT has an agenda...FNC has and Agenda...ABC has an agenda...Huffinton Post has an agenda......the facts are the facts ...let them speak for themself.


</div></div>

and the ACLU has an agenda too...
or are just plain either misinformed or stupid?

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But not everyone agrees with McCain. <span style="font-weight: bold">The ACLU, for one, says that the wording of the bill has lead to some confusion about what powers it will grant to the US government, but warns that the provision to indefinitely </span>detain American citizens is clearly part of NDAA. The ACLU tries to clarify the meaning of the bill by saying:

“<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Don’t be confused by anyone claiming that the indefinite detention legislation does not apply to American citizens. It does.</span></span> There is an exemption for American citizens from the mandatory detention requirement (section 1032 of the bill), but <span style="font-weight: bold">no exemption for American citizens from the authorization to use the military to indefinitely detain people without charge or trial (section 1031 of the bill). So, the result is that, under the bill, the military has the power to indefinitely imprison American citizens, but it does not have to use its power unless ordered to do so.</span>”

http://www.inquisitr.com/168657/indefinite-detention-bill-passes-senate-heads-for-obamas-signature/

[jah_yout]

Re: indefinite detention bill

40 members of congress protest the bill but senator lindsay &quot;redneck&quot; graham and Rich D say &quot;no big deal&quot;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 members of Congress have sent an urgent letter to House and Senate Armed Services Committee leaders protesting provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act that would legalize indefinite detention of American citizens without trial, as the revised version of the bill heads for a final vote on Thursday.


“The Senate-passed version of the NDAA, S. 1867, contains Section 1031, which authorizes indefinite military detention of suspected terrorists without protecting U.S. citizens’ right to trial. We are deeply concerned that this provision could undermine the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth amendment rights of U.S. citizens who might be subjects of detention or prosecution by the military,” states the letter.</div></div>

[RichD]

Re: indefinite detention bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 members of congress protest the bill but senator lindsay &quot;redneck&quot; graham and Rich D say &quot;no big deal&quot;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 members of Congress have sent an urgent letter to House and Senate Armed Services Committee leaders protesting provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act that would legalize indefinite detention of American citizens without trial, as the revised version of the bill heads for a final vote on Thursday.


“The Senate-passed version of the NDAA, S. 1867, contains Section 1031, which authorizes indefinite military detention of suspected terrorists without protecting U.S. citizens’ right to trial. We are deeply concerned that this provision could undermine the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth amendment rights of U.S. citizens who might be subjects of detention or prosecution by the military,” states the letter.</div></div> </div></div>


you ready to believe politricksters when it suit you eh? yuh all a quote dem

wonder how they voted


you can shut me up by quoting the offensive sections.

[jah_yout]

Re: indefinite detention bill

you're late...

the white house is already murdering US citizens who it says are guilty of terrorism---without due process or trial...see anwar al alwaki....

this just merely formalizes it...
apologists for the government can keep their heads in the sand due to mesmerization by a &quot;black&quot; face...
but many around the world are alarmed by this despotism &amp; raw lust for power

[blugiant]

Re: indefinite detention bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just had to bump this since the US <span style="text-decoration: line-through">state</span> corporate controlled media won't touch this with a ten-foot pole...
despite the fact that it threatens to revoke whole amendments of the bill of rights;

the population seems not to care too much...
kim kardashian hangover i guess </div></div>

maybe nobody touching it because it is not in fact the case


I posted the relevant section from what i understand to be the bill sent for signature.

blu disputes that...i asked him to post the relevant extract ...still waiting. </div></div>

staapp eeth rich

even babylon media bunninn likkle fiyah pon de indefinite detention bill ann obama fe sellinn out da bill aff rite

yu didd natt poas revalent section fram da indefinite detention bill. wat yu poas da section dat certain peeps inn da media wass misusinn inn ann effart fe deflect da fiyah.

da reason y mii ask yu wear yu got de section yu poas fram wass cah mii wood ave poas more aff de section fe show yu oww dem tekk ting out aff cantext

yu kno rich da prablem widd da arginnal bill wass da de administration felt dat dem awlreadee ave de authority fe indefinite detain merikkans citizens widdout trial ann da new bill dat authorize indefinite detention putt sum limit pon de administration authoritee

[blugiant]

Re: indefinite detention bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
maybe nobody touching it because it is not in fact the case

I posted the relevant section from what i understand to be the bill sent for signature.

blu disputes that...i asked him to post the relevant extract ...still waiting. </div></div>



Condemnation of President Obama is intense, and growing, as a result of his announced intent to sign into law the indefinite detention bill embedded in the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). These denunciations come not only from the nation’s leading civil liberties and human rights groups, but also from the pro-Obama New York Times Editorial Page, which today has a scathing Editorial describing Obama’s stance as “a complete political cave-in, one that reinforces the impression of a fumbling presidency” and lamenting that “the bill has so many other objectionable aspects that we can’t go into them all,” as well as from vocal Obama supporters such as Andrew Sullivan, who wrote yesterday that this episode is “another sign that his campaign pledge to be vigilant about civil liberties in the war on terror was a lie.” In damage control mode, White-House-allied groups are now trying to ride to the rescue with attacks on the ACLU and dismissive belittling of the bill’s dangers.

For that reason, it is very worthwhile to briefly examine — and debunk — the three principal myths being spread by supporters of this bill, and to do so very simply: by citing the relevant provisions of the bill, as well as the relevant passages of the original 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF), so that everyone can judge for themselves what this bill actually includes (this is all above and beyond the evidence I assembled in writing about this bill yesterday):

Myth # 1: This bill does not codify indefinite detention

Section 1021 of the NDAA governs, as its title says, “Authority of the Armed Forces to Detain Covered Persons Pursuant to the AUMF.” The first provision — section (a) — explicitly “affirms that the authority of the President” under the AUMF ”includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons.” The next section, (b), defines “covered persons” — i.e., those who can be detained by the U.S. military — as “a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners.” With regard to those “covered individuals,” this is the power vested in the President by the next section, (c):











It simply cannot be any clearer within the confines of the English language that this bill codifies the power of indefinite detention. It expressly empowers the President — with regard to anyone accused of the acts in section (b) – to detain them “without trial until the end of the hostilities.” That is the very definition of “indefinite detention,” and the statute could not be clearer that it vests this power. Anyone claiming this bill does not codify indefinite detention should be forced to explain how they can claim that in light of this crystal clear provision.

It is true, as I’ve pointed out repeatedly, that both the Bush and Obama administrations have argued that the 2001 AUMF implicitly (i.e., silently) already vests the power of indefinite detention in the President, and post-9/11 deferential courts have largely accepted that view (just as the Bush DOJ argued that the 2001 AUMF implicitly (i.e., silently) allowed them to eavesdrop on Americans without the warrants required by law). That’s why the NDAA can state that nothing is intended to expand the 2001 AUMF while achieving exactly that: because the Executive and judicial interpretation being given to the 20o1 AUMF is already so much broader than its language provides.

But this is the first time this power of indefinite detention is being expressly codified by statute (there’s not a word about detention powers in the 2001 AUMF). Indeed, as the ACLU and HRW both pointed out, it’s the first time such powers are being codified in a statute since the McCarthy era Internal Security Act of 1950, about which I wrote yesterday.

Myth #2: The bill does not expand the scope of the War on Terror as defined by the 2001 AUMF

This myth is very easily dispensed with. The scope of the war as defined by the original 2001 AUMF was, at least relative to this new bill, quite specific and narrow. Here’s the full extent of the power the original AUMF granted:

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

Under the clear language of the 2001 AUMF, the President’s authorization to use force was explicitly confined to those who (a) helped perpetrate the 9/11 attack or (b) harbored the perpetrators. That’s it. Now look at how much broader the NDAA is with regard to who can be targeted:
























Section (1) is basically a re-statement of the 2001 AUMF. But Section (2) is a brand new addition. It allows the President to target not only those who helped perpetrate the 9/11 attacks or those who harbored them, but also: anyone who “substantially supports” such groups and/or “associated forces.” Those are extremely vague terms subject to wild and obvious levels of abuse (see what Law Professor Jonathan Hafetz told me in an interview last week about the dangers of those terms). This is a substantial statutory escalation of the War on Terror and the President’s powers under it, and it occurs more than ten years after 9/11, with Osama bin Laden dead, and with the U.S. Government boasting that virtually all Al Qaeda leaders have been eliminated and the original organization (the one accused of perpetrating 9/11 attack) rendered inoperable.

It is true that both the Bush and Obama administration have long been arguing that the original AUMF should be broadly “interpreted” so as to authorize force against this much larger scope of individuals, despite the complete absence of such language in that original AUMF. That’s how the Obama administration justifies its ongoing bombing of Yemen and Somalia and its killing of people based on the claim that they support groups that did not even exist at the time of 9/11 – i.e., they argue: these new post-9/11 groups we’re targeting are “associated forces” of Al Qaeda and the individuals we’re killing “substantially support” those groups. But this is the first time that Congress has codified that wildly expanded definition of the Enemy in the War on Terror. And all anyone has to do to see that is compare the old AUMF with the new one in the NDAA.

Myth #3: U.S. citizens are exempted from this new bill

This is simply false, at least when expressed so definitively and without caveats. The bill is purposely muddled on this issue which is what is enabling the falsehood.

There are two separate indefinite military detention provisions in this bill. The first, Section 1021, authorizes indefinite detention for the broad definition of “covered persons” discussed above in the prior point. And that section does provide that “Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.” So that section contains a disclaimer regarding an intention to expand detention powers for U.S. citizens, but does so only for the powers vested by that specific section. More important, the exclusion appears to extend only to U.S. citizens “captured or arrested in the United States” — meaning that the powers of indefinite detention vested by that section apply to U.S. citizens captured anywhere abroad (there is some grammatical vagueness on this point, but at the very least, there is a viable argument that the detention power in this section applies to U.S. citizens captured abroad).

But the next section, Section 1022, is a different story. That section specifically deals with a smaller category of people than the broad group covered by 1021: namely, anyone whom the President determines is “a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force” and “participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.” For those persons, section (a) not only authorizes, but requires (absent a Presidential waiver), that they be held “in military custody pending disposition under the law of war.” The section title is “Military Custody for Foreign Al Qaeda Terrorists,” but the definition of who it covers does not exclude U.S. citizens or include any requirement of foreignness.

That section — 1022 — does not contain the broad disclaimer regarding U.S. citizens that 1021 contains. Instead, it simply says that the requirement of military detention does not apply to U.S. citizens, but it does not exclude U.S. citizens from the authority, the option, to hold them in military custody. Here is what it says:



The only provision from which U.S. citizens are exempted here is the “requirement” of military detention. For foreign nationals accused of being members of Al Qaeda, military detention is mandatory; for U.S. citizens, it is optional. This section does not exempt U.S citizens from the presidential power of military detention: only from the requirement of military detention.

The most important point on this issue is the same as underscored in the prior two points: the “compromise” reached by Congress includes language preserving the status quo. That’s because the Obama administration already argues that the original 2001 AUMF authorizes them to act against U.S. citizens (obviously, if they believe they have the power to target U.S. citizens for assassination, then they believe they have the power to detain U.S. citizens as enemy combatants). The proof that this bill does not expressly exempt U.S. citizens or those captured on U.S. soil is that amendments offered by Sen. Feinstein providing expressly for those exemptions were rejected. The “compromise” was to preserve the status quo by including the provision that the bill is not intended to alter it with regard to American citizens, but that’s because proponents of broad detention powers are confident that the status quo already permits such detention.

In sum, there is simply no question that this bill codifies indefinite detention without trial (Myth 1). There is no question that it significantly expands the statutory definitions of the War on Terror and those who can be targeted as part of it (Myth 2). The issue of application to U.S. citizens (Myth 3) is purposely muddled — that’s why Feinstein’s amendments were rejected — and there is consequently no doubt this bill can and will be used by the U.S. Government (under this President or a future one) to bolster its argument that it is empowered to indefinitely detain even U.S. citizens without a trial (<span style="font-weight: bold">NYT Editorial: “The legislation could also give future presidents the authority to throw American citizens into prison for life without charges or a trial”</span>; Sen. Bernie Sanders: “This bill also contains misguided provisions that in the name of fighting terrorism essentially authorize the indefinite imprisonment of American citizens without charges”).

Even if it were true that this bill changes nothing when compared to how the Executive Branch has been interpreting and exercising the powers of the old AUMF, there are serious dangers and harms from having Congress — with bipartisan sponsors, a Democratic Senate and a GOP House — put its institutional, statutory weight behind powers previously claimed and seized by the President alone. That codification entrenches these powers. As the New York Times Editorial today put it: the bill contains “terrible new measures that will make indefinite detention and military trials a permanent part of American law.”

<span style="font-weight: bold">What’s particularly ironic (and revealing) about all of this is that former White House counsel Greg Craig assured The New Yorker‘s Jane Mayer back in February, 2009 that it’s “hard to imagine Barack Obama as the first President of the United States to introduce a preventive-detention law.”</span> Four months later, President Obama proposed exactly such a law — one that The New York Times described as “a departure from the way this country sees itself, as a place where people in the grip of the government either face criminal charges or walk free” — and now he will sign such a scheme into law.

link

[blugiant]

Re: indefinite detention bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you would be an excellent lawyer for the govenment...
it seems the gov't can do no wrong in your eyes-- as long as a &quot;black&quot; face is its mascot



quote from RT:

i guess they didn't do their research either...certainly not enough to stump the gov'ts attorney

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<span style="font-size: 11pt">Exactly 220 years to the date after the Bill of Rights was ratified, the US Senate today voted 86 to 13 in favor of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, allowing the indefinite detention and torture of Americans.
After a back-and-forth in recent days between both the Senate and House yielded intense criticism from Americans attempting to hold onto their Constitutional rights, NDAA FY2012 is now on its way to the White House, where yesterday <span style="font-weight: bold">the Obama administration revealed that the president would not veto the legislation</span>, cancelling out a warning he offered less than a month earlier.
Obama has finally brought about change to America, but it’s nothing to be hopeful about.
Speaking before the Senate this afternoon, Sen. Lindsey Graham (Rep-SC) told his colleagues, “I hope you believe America is part of the battlefield.” The United States is at war, he insisted, and <span style="font-weight: bold">anyone alleged to be in opposition to the US government’s game will now be subjected to military-style detention indefinitely</span>. </span>
http://rt.com/usa/news/indefinite-de...ll-senate-905/ </div></div>


again i wall ask you to post the offensive portion of the legislation..my mind is open...i deal with facts....i will eat crow and join you if you provide the facts.

RT has an agenda...FNC has and Agenda...ABC has an agenda...Huffinton Post has an agenda......the facts are the facts ...let them speak for themself.


</div></div>

pdf ting

facts are not the facts. itt oww yu spinn dem. yu ave manee liberals, manee canservative, manee demonkkkrats ann manee republikkans bunninn fiyah pon diss bill. itt diss bill wass xxposed bye oyinbo media more itt wood neva ave passed

[Blackstar*]

Re: indefinite detention bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That sounds scary. I'm not liking a lot of things this administration is doing. </div></div>

The administration does not write law..congress does </div></div>The administration has its role to play.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Senator Carl Levin, chairman of the Armed Services committee, reports that the Obama administration insisted on keeping the language which permitted American citizens to be detained by the military without trial.

Senator Levin told Congress recently that under the original wording of the National Defense Authorization Act, American citizens were excluded from the provision that allowed for detention. Once Obama’s officials saw the text though, says Levin, ‘the administration asked us to remove the language which says that US citizens and lawful residents would not be subject to this section'.</div></div>