Woodrow Wilson memory

[WitchyOoman]

Blakkgiant's "Silent Stop and Frisk March" thread reminded me of this, but I didn't want to hijack his thread, so.....

I guess this is sort of a 'coming of age' kind of memory.


I hope I don't hijack this thread by an ancillary personal incident this brought back to my mind, after decades...

<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I decided to start a new thread here, rather than risk it.</span></span>


I went to Woodrow Wilson Junior High School, on Cottman Ave, in northeast Philadelphia.
I had all but forgotten the following incident...

When I was a student there, Wilson's student body was primarily white, but there were black kids that were bused in. We all got along; we didn't have racial problems with each other. We all made friends regardless of race, although it was rare that our black friends came home with us white kids in the NE, and just as rare for us NEP kids to go to west or southwest or north Philly to visit our black friends' WP or SWP or NP homes. There weren't any blacks living in the upper NE, where I lived, and very few (if any) in the lower NE, even, back then.

None of us had any idea who Woodrow Wilson was, other than a dusty old president from the 19-teens. We knew nothing else about the man, except what he looked like - his portrait hung in the assembly hall, and in the front hall of the school. We knew nothing about the man, nor of his policies. Nothing. All we knew was, &quot;Woodrow Wilson Junior High School / Cheer the gold and gray / Sing her praises / loyal students / every coming day / for Wilson...&quot; blah blah blah -- the school song.

One kid. All it took was one smart kid. One boy who knew more than any of the rest of us... or the faculty. dwl
First, Luc refused to sing the school song. &quot;I won't sing about praises and the name of a racist pig in the same breath!&quot;
They suspended him, he stuck to his guns. His parents threatened to sue the Philly School District. It got into the news. NO ONE wanted us to learn about Woodrow WIlson... so they hushed it all up, and told Luc that he didn't have to sing the school song, just not to disrupt it when everyone else sang it.

Naturally, some of us got curious... WTH was this all about, anyhow??? So we dug into the Encyclopedia Britannica at my house. We looked Woody Wilson up in the Philadelphia Free Library, Northeast Main Branch. We found out. Oh! Wow! Look at this.....

Now we were even more curious..... what was this film, &quot;Birth of a Nation&quot;?
Nothing. Nada. Absolutely nothing could we find, not even in the microfich in the free library! WTH??? WE asked our favorite teachers. Not a one would answer us. that alone told us something BIG was up! We asked at home. NONE of our parents knew about this film. Too odd for words. We didn't believe our parents. Finally, some of us asked Luc.

Luc told us. We didn't know what to think. Could a president of the United States really think like that?

Understand, we were a very naive and sheltered lot. The only blacks most of us knew were our family's cleaning ladies, some of our teachers, and our friends at school. I knew more blacks because my father was shop steward of his union. In the 1970s, in NE philly, we just didn't interact with many black people.

So we thought about what Luc told us. Finally, I weaseled it out of my father. Dad told me about that movie, and how racist it was... and how racist the world was and the country. I didn't know it.

I got smart: I cut school one day, took the train into Center City, hopped the bus and walked over to the Main Branch of the Free Library... and got my hands on a copy of that movie... said it was for a school project, and borrowed it on my library card. We set up the projector down in our basement (it paid to have TWO working parents back in the day, when everyone else's mother was home) and everyone came over to my house - and we watched &quot;Birth of a Nation&quot; in my Rec Room.

I got the beating of my life when my parents found out what I'd done..... but it was worth it. It opened my eyes to a whole new world. An ugly world, to be sure, but the REAL world.

[jah_yout]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Yea hotta fire fi Wilson ... I believe he said the movie was &quot;very truthful&quot;...

[Wahalla]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Yes he was an advisor on Birth of A Nation.... Is there anything of value he did ? His entry of the US in WWI... His driving force behind the formation of the League of Nations... One thing that he should be known for is his failure.
He tried to stop the allies from imposing reparations on Germany, had his proposal been carried through then the fall of the Weimar republic would have stopped and no Hitler... or the fact he was out manuevered by that Welsh Wizard LLyod George and Cleamansuea during the Paris peace conference....

.or the fact he ignored the Grveyite delegation, the Indian Congress delegations the Vietnamese delegation during the formation of the Leatgue of Nations...and the anti colonial asperations of the non white world....

Now examine every single yanki hero..... From Washington, Franklin,jerferson, Henry (ofg ive meliberty or death fame,.. You are left with men whos attitudes and histories are forgotten or ignored.... ) Even Lincoln comes out worst than Wilson....

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea hotta fire fi Wilson ... I believe he said the movie was &quot;very truthful&quot;... </div></div>
He is quoted as having said that &quot;Birth of a Nation&quot; was, &quot;unfortunately ... 'very truthful' &quot;.
I have never seen more than that partial quote, and I'd love to know what the missing part(s) was/were. Did the missing part or parts change the context? We don't know.
Not that I'm apologizing for Wilson. Like Wahalla points out, the man had a lot of other failings - all of them major, IMO. And I do not doubt that Wilson was prejudiced.


Wahalla, we don't really know if the Weimar Republic wouldn't have fallen anyhow... or if Hitler would have risen to power anyhow. That's treading a very, very fine line. If this, then that - maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe some other crisis would have arisen instead and been the similar catalyst to the same problems. There's no telling. It's just not that simple, my friend.

That's the problem with some of the things you propose, Wahalla - they're oversimplified. Just like the above-mentioned potential situation. Maybe, and maybe not. Maybe something else would have felled the Weimar Republic, and Hitler would still have been ready to step right into &quot;his [so-called] rightful place&quot;.

The league of Nations... Yeah. A disaster from the get-go. You're right. Plain and simple - a royal f-up from the start. No redeeming anything about it.

Speaking of &quot;ignoring the anti-colonial aspirations of the non-white world&quot;... Let's not get carried away. You can hardly lay that totally at Woodrow Wilson's doorstep solely! Please! That began long before Wilson. And, in fact, it still goes on today. It's hardly a problem Wilson created, or even exacerbated, particularly. Did he partake in it? Yes, just as everyone else has had a hand in it, as well. Let's call a spade a 'spade', shall we, and let's refrain from trying to refer to a 'portable digging implement'. Or use the word 'shovel', if you prefer, but let's be honest, okay?

I'm not particularly interested in examining every so-called Yankee hero. I'm just not. shrug Sorry.
But don't let my disinterest stop you from starting another thread if you would like to do that.

I had a particular interest in Woodrow Wilson and his ... eh, legacy ... due to my childhood memory of the incident I described above. It was something that changed who I was, who I became. And I'd all but forgotten it until yesterday, when Blakkgiant's other thread jogged my long-buried memories. Like I said, I didn't want to hijack his thread, so I started this one.

What interests me is this: No one ever taught us (in the Philadelphia School District in the 1960s/1970s) about President Woodrow Wilson <span style="font-style: italic">at al</span>l. (not even at the school named in his honor!)
Did any of unnu learn about him?
Did any of unnu know this before yesterday?
If so, where did you go to school, and when?
I'm curious.

[Wahalla]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Garvey used the Birth of a Nation as a tool...He referenced it a number of times.. Waht did Birth of the Nation tell Black america and the rest of the world ???? Nothing they did not know already and experienced every day.. That Wilson was a rascist ???? What do I know ???

Wilson was for a magnaimous attitude towards the Germans / Austirans..He promoted reconciliation not reparations..... He was for preserving the twin empire (Astro Hungerian empire.. it took till the 21 st centuary for that one to be sorted out!).... The Welsh Wizard and the French out manoeuvred him...

They place repartations on Germany...Wilson was for the preservation of the German territory.... And a token occupation force....

Reparations led to the hyperinflation of the twenties in Germany.. Had Wilson proposal for peace been accepted this would not ave happened... Wilson was against the occupation of the Rhine by allied troops, ... A compromise was reached.. What did the French do ???? Use Colonial Troops knowing full well that this would be seen by the Germans as a humiliation.. .... Both these led to the rise of Hitler...

Reparation broke the German economy... Look up every economic analysis of the post war period and that is the standard economcy driver as to why Hitler arose... Had they followed Wilson proposal reparations would not have happened

Wilson was Naieve yanki who like the liberals of today beleive that morality is liberalism...

Wilson was right about reparation from Germany.... That should not have been done... He was against the humiliating peace that was forced on them... They were labeled evil and war mongers ..

He was pro disaramanent..

He want a League of Nations.. Which was a good thing. Again his proposal was not taken up. (He was right on that) He pointedly ignored the delegations from Africa, the UNIA, the Vietnamese, and the Indian congress.. The league of nations ignored the colonial self determinations that was coming out at the time... I am saying that All these groups made representations directly to Wilson.. He ignored them.. He did not modify his proposals.

The Frensh, belgium English and Dutch were for the preservations of their empires... He came with Paineque retoric about the rights of man, but man did not include men with melanian... So his half arsed myopic eurocentric veiw led to the failure of the league of nations.. (Had he done what Llyod George did in UK to get legistlation through the house of Lords simply create more delegates at the league of nations and the palace of verssile.. How put delegates form the colonies into that hall)


Today German economic policy reflects the fear of hyper inflation, where do they get this fear from ????? As a direct result of the consequences of the Treaty of Versilles... Had the treaty followed Wilson proposal the world would have been different. Wilson was right about no reparations...

Had Wilson taken into account the representations of a lowly waiter from the Ritz in Paris.. The vietnam war would not have happened ad it wouls have saved those 50 000 yanki. (Course they are valued more than the vietanmese who died from a yanki perspective)... That is the man's legasy in veitnam..

Had he listended to the Indian representation, the split of the Raj would not have happened....Indian independence.

He ignored his potential natural allies at the post war negotiations because he beleieved in the superiority of the white men and their right to rule us natives.. Garey, Ho, Nehru, Sukarno all beleve that Wilson could have made things easier.. They knew the colonial masters would not give up revenue, but they saw the potential for an history academic which Wilson was could draw the analoge for their aspirations for self determination based on his own countries over riding creation myth... That was his failure... Not the fact he is creditied as a historical advsor on the birth of a nation..

By the way he also investigated I beleive the deportation of negros, (or is it repatriation of Africans to Africa)

was he alone no.. But he had the ways and the means to change the world.. He was at that point.. Like all liberal yankis his vision did not include the world. He saw Europe but failed to notice the potentials allies he could have garnered in the middle east, Africa and asia.. because of his limited vision on what humanity was...

Compare his forgien policy toward the colonial powers of at the end of the World War II... And say the UN charter

This is not about Yanki polticians...they are a bunch of naieve.. This is about one man who stood at one of those cusp moments in time, who was so myopic, so smart but so limited he got out manuevered by real polticks... Wilson is a fascinating President.. In fact till Johnson there was none as interesting.... (Well Rosvelt II would have out manuerverd the French and British)

I am sorry but to me birth of a nation comments reflected miliue of the 20s was the near standard of the US. so hardly surprisign..... but the fact that he did not listen to that waiter from the Ritz Ho Chi Minh... who was among the vietanmese delegation again it was standard ...... well the rest is history...

History of the twenty and twenty first centuary has a lot of idirect consequences of events that were from the fall out of the treaty of versilles... and the league of nations. There were alot of indirect consequnces.. How often do u ever hear Farrakhan and the black US fringe discuss Verssilles ??? or Worl war I..

But prto african liberation, (including the UNIA) Sun Yat Sen, (chinese liberal wing), Zionists, the Arab delegation saw the consequences and recognise that moment. All were in France at this moment trying to get a seat at the table.. ..What is forgotten is that these groups saw the US delegation as their best hope agaisnt the entreched colonialist. And read any biography of htese players and u see their veiw on Wilson...

U simply dont help create a mess and not expect blow back.. Wilson is important not for the Birth of a Nation but the treaty of versille and the disappointment that the proto independence/ left wing movement of the lack of recognition of the rights of Non Anglos.. (I use the term Zionist as the jewish nationalist movement that came out of Switzerland, not to be confused with the way it is used to day)..

Yes and even because they failed to treat realitisticly with the new Soviets r.Who saw the need to expand through the Comitren, expansionism into China. Wilson was a disappointment but compare him to the position of the French, British, Belgian, Dutch, delegation.. ( Note I give more importance to Wilson than to the Ethiopian / Abyssinian delegation)


....I fear idealists and Wilson was one... But Birth of a Nation comments seems to my mind minutae l as compared to his other endeavours seeing it from the perspective of the Soviets, African, Chinese, Vietnamese even Garveyite perspective...

Note the usual privisos.. I am stupid, un educated non yanki, sell out...so what do I know of Woodrow Wilson!

[jah_yout]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What interests me is this: No one ever taught us (in the Philadelphia School District in the 1960s/1970s) about President Woodrow Wilson at all. (not even at the school named in his honor!)</div></div>

from my experience he is never covered in-depth in the school history books...but then public school is gov't indoctrination and preparation to create loyal, obedient
citizens who don't question the shytstem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did any of unnu learn about him?
Did any of unnu know this before yesterday?
If so, where did you go to school, and when?
I'm curious.</div></div>

i knew about this, but from my own research-- this type of thing is usually covered up in mainstream education and media and political discourse...
i learned nothing on it in jamaican schools, which is understandable--i did not go to high school in jamaica.
..prez wilson was covered in american history class when i went to school inna merca but only superficially and certainly nothing of substance that would reveal the deeper layers...
wilson i also believe was instrumental in the creation of the federal reserve and the federal income tax...
but the true story behind these things are never taught by those in power/ in the know...we are in the matrix...one has to be jarred from it to really begin to see the true picture

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but then public school is gov't indoctrination and preparation to create loyal, obedient
citizens who don't question the shytstem


but the true story behind these things are never taught by those in power/ in the know...we are in the matrix...one has to be jarred from it to really begin to see the true picture </div></div>
This ^ is quite true.
Not that I understood this back when I was a junior high school kid... nor even as a younger adult...

Wahalla - you just <span style="font-style: italic">did it</span>. Now I need to dig deep and hunt Woodrow Wilson's history. It's not a period of history that I specialize in, nor one that has ('til now) particularly interested me. But <span style="font-weight: bold">now</span> I wanna know.

Woodrow Wilson School (was a junior high when I attended it) still stands, although it's now a middle school. The place - I swear this is true! - looks like a freakin' prison, with it's severe architecture (common for school buildings of it's day), Corinthian columns, marble steps and marble front entry hall (which students were <span style="font-style: italic">never</span> allowed into - we had to walk three-quarters around the entire building rather than just across the marble hall, to get to some classes), and spike-topped black wrought iron fence that completed surrounded the school and school yard. When we entered those black iron gates each morning, it was like entering a prison. The spike-topped fence was probably eight feet tall... I don't know for certain, but I was 5'9&quot; tall and estimate based upon my height. The west side of the school had two annex trailer buildings attached to it. The annexes are long gone; there is now a parking lot there now. I can remember when the annexes were removed due to lack of number of students making them necessary any longer. circa mid-1980s The prison-like fence and gates are also gone, now... I have no idea when those were removed. But the school yard still looks like a prison yard.

[img]http://goo.gl/maps/jeCM[/img]

&quot;Walking&quot; to the left in the photo will show you the <span style="text-decoration: line-through">prison</span> school yard.


I'm going to do some studying up on President Woodrow Wilson, Wahalla, then I'll be back. Thanks!

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but then public school is gov't indoctrination and preparation to create loyal, obedient
citizens who don't question the shytstem


but the true story behind these things are never taught by those in power/ in the know...we are in the matrix...one has to be jarred from it to really begin to see the true picture </div></div>
This ^ is quite true.
Not that I understood this back when I was a junior high school kid... nor even as a younger adult...

Wahalla - you just <span style="font-style: italic">did it</span>. Now I need to dig deep and hunt Woodrow Wilson's history. It's not a period of history that I specialize in, nor one that has ('til now) particularly interested me. But <span style="font-weight: bold">now</span> I wanna know.

Woodrow Wilson School (was a junior high when I attended it) still stands, although it's now a middle school. The place - I swear this is true! - looks like a freakin' prison, with it's severe architecture (common for school buildings of it's day), Corinthian columns, marble steps and marble front entry hall (which students were <span style="font-style: italic">never</span> allowed into - we had to walk three-quarters around the entire building rather than just across the marble hall, to get to some classes), and spike-topped black wrought iron fence that completed surrounded the school and school yard. When we entered those black iron gates each morning, it was like entering a prison. The spike-topped fence was probably eight feet tall... I don't know for certain, but I was 5'9&quot; tall and estimate based upon my height. The west side of the school had two annex trailer buildings attached to it. The annexes are long gone; there is now a parking lot there now. I can remember when the annexes were removed due to lack of number of students making them necessary any longer. circa mid-1980s The prison-like fence and gates are also gone, now... I have no idea when those were removed. But the school yard still looks like a prison yard.

[img]http://goo.gl/maps/jeCM[/img]

&quot;Walking&quot; to the left in the photo will show you the <span style="text-decoration: line-through">prison</span> school yard.


I'm going to do some studying up on President Woodrow Wilson, Wahalla, then I'll be back. Thanks! </div></div>

witchee mii neva clicked pon diss tredd untill now cah mii knew woodrow wilson wass a racist. still to chatt bout woodrow widdout chatt bout de political power aff de kkk iss shortsighted cah a latt oyinbo politrixxstahs bakk den defended de kkk. de kkk was bigg ann accepted bakk den. image de bigg kkk march pon de capitol ann oww xxert influenced. birth aff de nation ar de histaree aff de kkk

[Blackstar*]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Good thread - thanks for starting it, Witchy.

Interesting how Wilson's racism caused his ideas regarding foreign policy to fail.

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

I've done some interesting research on President Woodrow Wilson today, Wahalla.

I first have a basic question for you. After reading everything you've written twice (or more)... it seems to me that you want to <span style="font-weight: bold">crucify Woodrow Wilson for being the dreamer/idealist that he was more than for being a politician - which he was not (or was not good at)? Am I 'reading' you correctly? Are you blaming Wilson for not standing up - alone, solo - against the Empires of northern Europe? for not standing up for the downtrodden against the colonizing emperors? You are blaming President Wilson for not sending how many thousands of American troops into the French Rhineland to 'control' the French troops against the already-beaten Germans? What else could Wilson and Americans over here in the USA do, given that we were here (where we belonged) and Europeans were all over there in Europe? I hear you praise Woodrow Wilson as &quot;smart&quot;, as being &quot;right&quot; time and time again, as having a good uderstanding of situations, so... what, then, is your problem with him? that he couldn't produce miracles? What did you expect that one man - alone against the rest of the world, and with relatively little power (the U.S. wasn't a superpower back then) - to actually do for the disenfranchized peoples of the world? </span>

..... and yes, I agree that they were, indeed, disenfranchised, and they were ultimately disappointed - no question about that!

Wahalla, you essentially state that WiIson was correct in his vision, in his assessment, in his general policies/thinking/views, am I correct? But that he was outmaneuvered by slicker statesmen/politricksters, right? So why do you crucify a man for being less the politrickster? He was a more honest man, based on what you're saying... only less politically savvy. And for that you crucify him?!

Yes, I understand that, in the eyes of the dark-skinned colonized peoples, he &quot;let them down&quot;, he disappointed them. But honestly - what did they realistically expect him to be able to do strictly on his own - solo? The United States was (and is) physically removed from both Europe and Asia, and Asia is closer to Europe than to the American continent. Geography made it so that there was little that Wilson would have possibly been able to do without the help or consent of Clemenceau or George.

Really, Wahalla, I fail to see what you would have had Woodrow Wilson do differently, <span style="font-weight: bold">that would have been doable</span>. And I am talking about <span style="font-weight: bold">reality</span> - not <span style="font-style: italic">pie-in-the-sky dreamer's wishing</span> - when I say that last statement.

Come with serious plan(s) and explanation(s) as to how Wilson - in his day, given the situations as they existed - could have pulled it/them off... and I'd love to discuss it/them. I really mean that. I would like to think that there might have been a different outcome to this particular era - that period between WWI and WWII - and the fallout that, indeed, still dogs us today... but I just don't see one.

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
witchee mii neva clicked pon diss tredd untill now cah mii knew woodrow wilson wass a racist. still to chatt bout woodrow widdout chatt bout de political power aff de kkk iss shortsighted cah a latt oyinbo politrixxstahs bakk den defended de kkk. de kkk was bigg ann accepted bakk den. image de bigg kkk march pon de capitol ann oww xxert influenced. birth aff de nation ar de histaree aff de kkk </div></div>
See, now, I didn't know there was a connection between WW and the KKK <span style="font-style: italic">BUT</span> if it's true, I would be totally unsurprised. It is completely true that a lot of pols were backed by the KKK (and were members of KKK as well).

It is a little-known fact that the KKK was <span style="font-style: italic">HUGE</span> here in NJ back in the 1920s and 1930s. My father-in-law was damn near lynched twice (being a k*ke) - and he was a very well-known civil rights lawyer (we're talking in North Newark in the '30s)... someone you'd think they'd not want to screw around with! The second time they had my f-i-l, the noose was 'round his neck and they were ready to drive the car out from underneath him - thereby hanging him! - when the local police arrived with my m-i-l, just in the nick of time. My m-i-l was hysterical (literally) and they couldn't calm her down... thereby giving the KKK members enough time to get away. At least, that's how my f-i-l always told me the story. I never knew my m-i-l; she died before I met Mr Witchy.

It's also not very well known that the KKK is still here in NJ.

But, Blakkgiant, do you have any kind of proof that Woodrow Wilson was KKK or was backed by KKK?

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good thread - thanks for starting it, Witchy.

Interesting how Wilson's racism caused his ideas regarding foreign policy to fail. </div></div>
I don't know if his racism caused his foreign policy to fail, so much as he wasn't an experienced politician. He was, apparently, very much a dreamer or idealist, and didn't know how to implement or enforce is ideas. He was 'running with the big dogs' Georges Benjamin Clemenceau and David Lloyd George, as well as others... They outclassed Woodrow Wilson, who was not a professional politician, per se, as the others were.

Wilson was a southerner, born in Virginia in 1856. He was raised in American Civil War south. He was no more racist than anyone of his time. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Note</span>: That's not to say he wasn't racist, just that he wasn't overly racist as compared with other people of his time.

Interestingly, at the end of 1919 (in his second term as Prez) - in October, he suffered a seriously debilitating stroke, which was kept hidden from the public... and even from the Senate and the House of Representatives. His wife signed everything requiring a signature, and she delegated everything of his cabinet heads! No one - except his doctor and his wife - knew the extent of President Wilson's illness and debility. This was, in fact, cited later as one of the major reasons for the necessity to pass the 25th Amendment. * I wonder how anyone could pull that off, these days, for so much as 24 hours, even.

At any rate, I think this was an excellent idea, because all f us can stand to learn a little something extra or new about American history... and this particular man apparently, as Wahalla put it, stood on the cusp of a dawning new age - yet did not manage to make that come to pass, for whatever reason. I say that that deserves some digging out, some discussion - because we <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> know what is said (and true) about history: <span style="font-weight: bold">If we do not know history, we are doomed to repeat it!</span> Let us learn from Woodrow Wilson's mistakes.

[Wahalla]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

He was a complex inteligent man... So an opnion has to reflect this complexity. I have little interest in his domestic policy,(I beleive that he passed some anti racsism laws ) but his forgien policy is of importance... Every one of the greats of the 20th centuary referenced the league of nations and the treaty of versille in which he was a major mover.... And gave thoughts to it.. From the fact that Saudi regime with Wahabism was formed rather than a hassermite kingdom , to German economic policy came out of the treaty of Versilles.. The war in the Balkans all directly.. But It strikes me that we are coming to the end of the impact of the theseevents 100 years ago..Again the concept of the three parts of Libya last year was attributed to the break up of the Ottoman empire again a part of the these events.

The role that Woodrow Willson played was seminal... Again I assumed that this was common knowledge... I mean I mentioned the Treaty of Versilles to my daughter the other day... Even the borders of Iran, Iraq and Saudi comes out of an offshoot of the Versille treaty.. (The UAE being independent as a protectorate of the UK, The british occupation of palistine all were discussed there....)

Read any biography of any major figures of that period and you will see a reference to these events and highly lokey te ame of Wilson is mentioned....

But there is no simple pithfy sound bite to characteise the man.. To reduce him to Birth of a Nation is as detremental to understanding of history as ignoring him...

I mean Whichy u went to his school yet u admit to know little of the mans greatest moves...

And we havent even discussed the Lusitania yet...interestingly why I know so much about him is that he comes up again and again in biographies....

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He was a complex inteligent man... So an opnion has to reflect this complexity.


But there is no simple pithfy sound bite to characteise the man.. To reduce him to Birth of a Nation is as detremental to understanding of history as ignoring him...


<span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">I mean Whichy u went to his school yet u admit to know little of the mans greatest moves...</span></span>


And we havent even discussed the Lusitania yet...interestingly why I know so much about him is that he comes up again and again in biographies.... </div></div>
Everything you've just said is so true, Wahalla.

And this -----&gt; &quot;<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">I mean Whichy u went to his school yet u admit to know little of the mans greatest moves...</span></span>&quot; &lt;--- is the entire point to my having started this thread, really.

I think this merits my hitting Amazon.com and hunting a few biographies, buying the books and reading them, then coming back in here to discuss further.

The RMS Lusitania ? ........ Okay. The sinking of her certainly helped provoke American entry into WWI. What else?


Y'know, Wahalla, I think I may also have changed my mind about something else I said in here.
<span style="font-style: italic">Maybe I <span style="font-weight: bold">am</span></span>, after all, interested in examining other &quot;so-called Yankee heros&quot; - as you called them - one at a time, in different threads... one thread per person, perhaps.
This is getting very interesting. History is my favorite of subjects. And I don't know too many people who know enough to intelligently discuss history with me... or who want to.
It's more interestingly done with someone/people with different views than one's own...

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think this merits my hitting Amazon.com and hunting a few biographies, buying the books and reading them, then coming back in here to discuss further. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Any suggestions <span style="font-size: 11pt">^</span> before I buy?</span>



I'm almost finished the fascinating history book I'm currently reading, anyhow: Eamon Duffy's &quot;Fires of Faith: Catholic England Under Mary Tudor&quot;.