fiyah pon christmas

[Tropicana]

Blu and dahjah...here's the bottom line. It matters not when we celebrate the birth of Christ. What matters is that He came and that we remember Him. Since the Bible did not specify a date, if you wish to celebrate His birth in the Spring. Go for it. No need to bun fiyah.


Some traditions like the Christmas tree are German in origin. It was Martin Luther King who suggested that children receive gifts from the Baby Jesus at Christmas. Nothing wrong with that.

[Emperah]

It never fails to amaze me how we celebrate a day that is not biblical. No mention of Dec. 25th in scripture nor the fact that we are to celebrate said day.

And yes, the fact that the ancestors of slaves would embrace a religion that was used by the former slave owners to rationalize a society which included such brutality is nothing less than mental slavery being passed on from generation to generation. JMHO.

[Emperah]

Blu and dahjah...here's the bottom line. It matters not when we celebrate the birth of Christ. What matters is that He came and that we remember him. Since the Bible did not specify a date, if you wish to celebrate His birth in the Spring. Go for it. No need to bun fiyah.


Some traditions like the Christmas tree are German in origin. It was Martin Luther King who suggested that children receive gifts from the Baby Jesus at Christmas. Nothing wrong with that.

he's a myth and as for the tree take a look at jeremiah 10
tanx

[blugiant]

In fact, there is plenty of historical proof that Jesus existed; Roman records, and the ancient Romans had NO stake in fabricating the Jesus story, as they were pagans and not Jews of either side of the coin (was Jesus the Messiah question). We know for fact that Jesus existed, we know approximately when He was most likely born, and we know for certain when and how He died - all from official Roman records, as well as other, private historian's records.

Jesus was born while His parents were indeed on their journey to Jerusalem to be counted for the census; that puts His birth in the early Springtime... about the time we celebrate Easter, actually. (And yes, Easter, too, has pagan beginnings. No kidding. We all know it.) We know when He was born. But it was expedient to celebrate His birth in late December for several reason, and so we do.

In case you want those reasons enumerated...
(1) It fits with Jesus the Christ being the Light of the World being born at the Darkest time of the Year. But, after time, the date became a fixed date, not a movable feast date to coincide with the Winter Solstice, as it had originally been.
(2) The early Church needed to replace the pagan Winter Solstice; it decided, for the above-mentioned reason, to replace with the Birth of Our Lord.
(3) It was not appropriate, nor well advised, to celebrate both the birth AND the death of Our Lord at the same time - springtime - so they, for whatever reason, chose to keep Easter as the replacement holiday to cover over that pagan holiday and Christ's Nativity in the winter.

so wat yuh seyinn iss dat tings written aftah jesus iss proof dat mii shood accept as proof aff jesus. y yuh tink iff roman ave written recard dat dem cyaan find a ting written durinn jesus lifethyme as proofs. so oyinbo doan accept afrikkan oral recards butt dem waan uss fe accept dem tradition as proof. mii kno judaism got fe dem oral tradition fram afrikka ann itt cah dem were trained dat mii give dem a bly

mii kno yuh natt tellinn mii dat de roman empire add no reason fe fabricate jesus given dat religious peeps were apposinn de roman empire. y yu tink da roman coopted christianitee? y yuh tink de merican pilgrim use fe bunn fiyah pon christmas. wass itt cah dem saw de katoohlikk church as da continuation aff de roman empire. plus let natt chatt oww de roman suppressed addar farm aff christianitee. one qwestian wat versian aff jesus yuh seyinn xxisted? iss itt de human varsian ar de spirit varsain? doan gawn like dem a de same ting cah dat a fundamental christian diffarances dat separate sum varsian aff christianitee.

doan mixxed upp wat can be proven versus wat yu beeleevee ar been taught

lite aff de wurld dat shone lite pon darkness. amen de sun god ting

da earlee church coopted tings fram addar pagan religion dat preceede itt. includinn de winter solsitice. no diffant dan wat addar religion ,like judaism. did.glad fe see yuh admit dat de bible neva chatt bout jesus birthday butt yuh tryinn fe deduced wen imm barn.

proof affii fe definitive fe mii fe accept historical jesus xxistence

[blugiant]

Blu and dahjah...here's the bottom line. It matters not when we celebrate the birth of Christ. What matters is that He came and that we remember him. Since the Bible did not specify a date, if you wish to celebrate His birth in the Spring. Go for it. No need to bun fiyah.

tropi yuh kno bunninn fiyah pon christmas iss bout raisinn qwestian bout wat itt represent ann de values been transmitted by de societee. read fredrick douglas ann see iff yuh ovatand de issue imm raisinn bout christmas

From what I know of the effect of these holidays upon the slave, I believe them to be among the most effective means in the hands of the slaveholder in keeping down the spirit of insurrection. Were the slaveholders at once to abandon this practice, I have not the slightest doubt it would lead to an immediate insurrection among the slaves. These holidays serve as conductors, or safety-valves, to carry off the rebellious spirit of enslaved humanity. But for these, the slave would be forced up to the wildest desperation; and woe betide the slaveholder, the day he ventures to remove or hinder the operation of those conductors! I warn him that, in such an event, a spirit will go forth in their midst, more to be dreaded than the most appalling earthquake.

The holidays are part and parcel of the gross fraud, wrong, and inhumanity of slavery. They are professedly a custom established by the benevolence of the slaveholders; but I undertake to say, it is the result of selfishness, and one of the grossest frauds committed upon the down-trodden slave. They do not give the slaves this time because they would not like to have their work during its continuance, but because they know it would be unsafe to deprive them of it. This will be seen by the fact that the slaveholders like to have their slaves spend those days just in such a manner as to make them as glad of their ending as of their beginning.

Their object seems to be, to disgust their slaves with freedom by plunging them into the lowest depths of dissipation.

[blugiant]

tropicana

BLACK PETE FE YUH

Zwarte Piet: A Racist Caricature?

By Guest Contributor Keisha Wiel, cross-posted from Anthro Meaning People, Dope Meaning Awesome

I wasn’t going to originally post anything on Zwarte Piet but, after seeing discourse after discourse on the holiday of Sinterklaas, I decided to write about it. Ah, where to begin.

I celebrated Sinterklaas as a child. Since my parents were from the Dutch Caribbean, we would go every December 5th to the Dutch consulate in New York City and eagerly sit with the other children (we were usually the only children of color) while Sinterklaas handed out our presents. And, of course, to accompany Sinterklaas, this saintly white man who represented a bishop, were his ‘helpers’ or Zwarte Pieten (Black Petes). These would usually be men, or women, dressed up in blackface with an Afro wig and bright red lipstick. The legend goes that if you’re bad, Zwarte Piet will take you in his burlap sack to Spain. So naturally I was mortified of Zwarte Pieten (Black Petes) as a child. You mean to tell me that this dude who dresses flamboyantly and has this jet black makeup on his face is going to collect me and ship me off to Spain with him? OH HELL NO!!

As I grew up and learned about Golliwogs and minstrel shows, I started to notice a pattern. This beloved holiday that I celebrated as part of my ‘heritage’ seemed to overlap a lot with blackface in America. The similarities are undeniable.

Originally Zwarte Piet was a representation of the devil. He had no name but the dichotomy between Sinterklaas and the devil figure were supposed to represent the good and evil aspects of Sinterklaas. Sinterklaas was modeled after a 4th-century bishop, Saint Nicholas, from what is now modern-day Turkey. The opposite of Sinteklaas was the devil, whom it is believed Sinterklaas captured and made his slave. The first mention of Zwarte Piet comes in 1850 when Jan Schenkman decides to add his own spin to the story and changes the devil to Zwarte Piet, the enslaved Moor from Morocco. His book, Sint Nicolaas en Zijn Knecht (Saint Nicholas and his Servant) is what is used for the modern-day celebrations of Sinterklaas. This is also where you start to see the present-day representations of what Zwarte Piet looks like.

Then around the 1950s, they changed him to his servant. All in all, Sinterklaas is supposed to come from Turkey and Zwarte Piet is supposed to be a Moor from Morocco (interesting how some Dutch have negative attitudes towards Turkish and Moroccan people presently due to Geert Wilders’ racist views on Muslims). But now Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet reside in Spain. When people try to start a discourse of the racist aspects of Zwarte Piet (Afro wig, blackface (even though Moors were lighter-skinned Arabs), big bright red lipstick, some even speak in a faux Surinamese accent) proponents for Zwarte Piet say that opponents are the racists because they bring in American imperialism and that it’s not a racist image at all. Or they say that Zwarte Piet doesn’t represent black people, he just went down a chimney and got dirty from the soot. I’ve seen Mary Poppins, and Dick van Dyke’s character Bert, a chimney sweeper, is dirty from a chimney. Not Zwarte Piet.

So, I’m going to dispel the asinine reactions that you get about Zwarte Piet when you say it’s a racist depiction.

Reason 1: Zwarte Piet does not represent black people. You’re racist for thinking so.

Answer: By wearing a faux Afro wig, blackface, and red lips, who are you supposed to be representing? Unless there is a new ‘race’ out there that has the same stereotypes, I’m sure this is the ‘race’ that is being portrayed. Furthermore, it looks like the golliwogs and blackface of the US that were very prevalent around the time Schenkman’s book came out.

Reason 2: He supposed to be a Moor, that’s why we dress like that.

Answer: Historically, the Moors came from northern West Africa, typically Morocco, to conquer what is now modern-day Spain and Portugal. Aside from the stereotypical depictions of Othello and other Moors, Moors were primarily of Berber and Arab descent. This means that they look like what Moroccans look like today: fair skin, somewhat straight hair, no bright red lips.

Reason 3: Zwarte Pieten are black because they go down the chimney and they are black from the soot.

Answer: Unless they have a magical fabric that doesn’t get dirty, this doesn’t prove why his face and hands are evenly toned with black makeup or why his clothes are not dirty. Also, it doesn’t explain how he magically gets a Afro and outrageous red lips if he is just sliding down the chimney. Once again, Bert from Mary Poppins–dirty from going down a chimney. Zwarte Piet–not so much.

Reason 4: You’re the racist one because you bring your American racist attitudes towards our progressive country, Holland. Those images of blackface and golliwogs couldn’t possibly have made it to Holland because it was the 1800s and there wasn’t any technology to bring those images.

Answer: Well, unless Jan Schenkman and other Dutch people were living under a rock, these images could have easily made it to the Netherlands. The Dutch at the time were very influential in the slave trade and all sorts of goodies were being sent and brought back from the New World to the Old. It has been historically proven that racism becomes prevalent during colonialism. This includes racist stereotypes.

Reason 5: It’s not that serious, it’s just a children’s holiday.

Answer: Well, when children are being brought up with racist stereotypes, it is a big issue. Especially when a protester gets arrested like this:

It’s a big issue because when people such as Quinsy Gario get arrested by having one officer dig a knee into your side and another into your neck. Or when you are dragged by four policemen into an alley…it’s a problem.

The girl in the background speaking in Papiamentu is saying that it’s messed up what they did to this guy because he was just standing there in a tranquil manner when they arrested him. She also said they she believes that they assaulted the other person that he was with (not seen in the video). The guy is saying that he knows that if this was a Dutch person it would have been a different story.

Gario and others decided to protest the coming of Sinterklaas by wearing “Sinterklaas is Racisme” t-shirts during Sinterklaas’s welcoming celebration. It is not clear exactly what went on before the video; regardless, his arrest was uncivil. He didn’t resist arrest (according to what is seen in the video), yet they treated him like a common criminal. So, it is a big issue–and, perhaps while we are in the Sinterklaas season (ending on Decmeber 6th), the Netherlands can finally have a proper discourse on Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet. He was not originally part of the tradition, so there is no excuse why they can’t find common ground to dispel this racist imagery.

Here is another article explaining the situation.

http://www.racialicious.com/2012/12/05/zwarte-piet-a-racist-caricature/

[Diplomat]

richd tell yuh dat wan aff de main reason mii luv fe bunn fiyah pon christmas iss cah oww dem use christmas fe brainwashed yuths fe spend dem sweetee money so dat rich peeps can git richer at de xxpense aff likkle yuths. imagine dem poor yuths woo parents cyaan aford fe buy dem present. yuh shood see de look pon sum aff dem yuths wey nah gitt no presents. plus mii doan like santa mekkinn yuths feel guiltee iff dem doan spend dem money fe buy presents.

Feel the same way about Valentine's Day, "oww dem use [v-day] fe brainwashed [men] fe spend dem [likkle] money so dat rich peeps can git richer at de xxpense aff [men]"? That day coming up soon

[Tropicana]

Feel the same way about Valentine's Day, "oww dem use [v-day] fe brainwashed [men] fe spend dem [likkle] money so dat rich peeps can git richer at de xxpense aff [men]"? That day coming up soon

Don't even mention Valentine's Day unless you want dahjah to freak out.

[Tropicana]

tropi yuh kno bunninn fiyah pon christmas iss bout raisinn qwestian bout wat itt represent ann de values been transmitted by de societee. read fredrick douglas ann see iff yuh ovatand de issue imm raisinn bout christmas

From what I know of the effect of these holidays upon the slave, I believe them to be among the most effective means in the hands of the slaveholder in keeping down the spirit of insurrection. Were the slaveholders at once to abandon this practice, I have not the slightest doubt it would lead to an immediate insurrection among the slaves. These holidays serve as conductors, or safety-valves, to carry off the rebellious spirit of enslaved humanity. But for these, the slave would be forced up to the wildest desperation; and woe betide the slaveholder, the day he ventures to remove or hinder the operation of those conductors! I warn him that, in such an event, a spirit will go forth in their midst, more to be dreaded than the most appalling earthquake.

The holidays are part and parcel of the gross fraud, wrong, and inhumanity of slavery. They are professedly a custom established by the benevolence of the slaveholders; but I undertake to say, it is the result of selfishness, and one of the grossest frauds committed upon the down-trodden slave. They do not give the slaves this time because they would not like to have their work during its continuance, but because they know it would be unsafe to deprive them of it. This will be seen by the fact that the slaveholders like to have their slaves spend those days just in such a manner as to make them as glad of their ending as of their beginning.

Their object seems to be, to disgust their slaves with freedom by plunging them into the lowest depths of dissipation.

I think your facts are a little skewed. House slaves in the Caribbean and the USA and household servants in the UK and Euroep worked on Christmas Day and celebrated on Boxing Day. Hence the Junkunu in the Caribbean.

[Tropicana]

tropicana

BLACK PETE FE YUH

Zwarte Piet: A Racist Caricature?

By Guest Contributor Keisha Wiel, cross-posted from Anthro Meaning People, Dope Meaning Awesome

Here is another article explaining the situation.

http://www.racialicious.com/2012/12/...st-caricature/

Thanks. I will read this.

[Tropicana]

christmascancelled.jpg

[My Looh]

I love how this thread just gets recycled now instead of having to make a brand new one.

[Tropicana]

I am trying to avoid starting new threads. Watch for more re-cycling jobs from me.

[Emperah]

some poas just need a good finneral and den get sent off into de abyss

[Blackstar*]

We skip Thanksgiving?