Why non-Americans (with or without firearms) are not relevant to the issue in the USA

[WitchyOoman]

This is a separate thread because it's supposed to be a tangential discussion inspired by another thread, but I didn't wish to hijack that thread. If the admins/mods choose to combine the two threads - so be it. :shrug:


Some people try to compare their lives in other countries than the United States. The problem with this is that their lives are not the same as ours are here. (The same is true about any country's citizens, btw - the US is no different in this matter than any other country; it's not a matter of Americans being 'better' either - it just is different, from country to country!)

I personally haven't been anywhere in the U.S. where it took 20 minutes for police to arrive after a 911/home invasion call! (even if it turned out not to be a home invasion situation later... if the call came thru as such on the Reverse 911 system we currently use - except for NYC, that is - then I stand by my statement.) I don't know anybody in this country who would calmly accept an unknown apparent home invader's presence in their home without reacting by getting whatever self-defense weapon(s) at hand - firearms or otherwise. I know I wouldn't.
This is why --

WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT IN VIDEO!

The above happened 4 weeks ago, only a literal few miles from my home. The man who did this heinous violence was caught and arrested a couple of days later. Disgustingly, this man had 12 felonies and a criminal record dating back about 20 years (TWO decades!), and yet, he was out walking free in our society to do this again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... AND YET AGAIN! And, even if/when convicted, he will only get a maximum penalty of 10-20 years, which means he will be out and free to DO IT AGAIN in 8-1/2 to 17 years! He will only be 52 years old in 17 years - plenty young enough to continue his savage lifestyle! I wish they'd apply the Three Strikes Law to him, now that it's in effect; then they could lock him away from society for the rest of his life, potentially.

Now, I am not saying that the woman (whom I don't know, other than I've seen her around - in South Orange and Maplewood - before this hit the news) could have changed a single thing about her horrifying attack had she had a gun easily accessible at hand and tried to use it. In fact, there is always the distinct possibility that if one pulls out a firearm, it can potentially be taken away from, and used against, one! Had she held a gun, things may have turned out far worse for her - she might have been shot dead... and/or her 3-yr-old daughter. This man did not use a firearm and, so far as I am aware, did not have one - mercifully. He may well have simply taken it form her, used it to kill her and her daughter, and then gotten clean away with the firearm as well as the jewelry he stole... in which case, it might have been used in other violent crimes against even more innocent victims.

What I am saying, however, is that a home invasion is no matter to be taken flippantly (as the Proud Canadian, Brian Hatch, who wrote the piece referenced & hotlinked in the first sentence of this post takes it)!! Am I glad that his case turned out so well? Of course I am! BUT, here in my country, things don't always work out so well... life isn't so rosy as his apparently is... and, where I live especially, we can't take the time to necessarily sort out if less deadly means are warranted when some stranger barges into our homes unexpectedly and unsolicited! Our lives usually depend upon our quick wits and quick action. And, perhaps surprisingly, I don't live in an inner city ghetto, either; I live in a very, very nice area, actually (historic Seven Oaks area). I am also saying that this homeowner is known by all to be armed and perfectly willing to wield her firearms with deadly force in order to protect her life or the life of her husband. Vice versa, Mr Witchy. And we are well trained, practice frequently, and both good markspersons - and we take good care of our firearms so that they work properly when used. I'd rather spend time in litigation than the rest of my life as a widow. I'd also rather be alive to fight things out in litigation than be dead; I choose to survive. I thank God that I am not married to a man who is less interested in protecting my life than he is in proving a point.
Thank you, God. Amen.


Anybody care to discuss?

[j-kid]

[j-kid]

[WitchyOoman]

Yes, j-kid: sooo... what is your point?
I don't understand.

I posted a number of hotlinks to ongoing news stories about the incident in my original post.
One was to a story that he'd been apprehended. So??
I know that; I posted it; how does the fact that he's been apprehended change anything I posted?

[lonewolf]

Witchy, I posted this video when it first happened and it was removed. I assumed because of the brutality of the video that was the reason the mods removed it. And I respect that position if that is the case. Let's see what happens to yours...and me wonders how much air play this would have received if the attacker was white and the victims were black. Sorry, I had to say it...but I'm sure it would have been dicussed on here to the point of nausea if roles were reversed. Instead the topic was not only removed but ignored. Just some of the stuff that makes one say... Hmmm

[LinSkinny]

Witchy, don't bother. Sometimes, the sheeple, for lack of a better term, take a while to learn when the wolf observes from the woods.

It doesn't matter what you come up with, or what facts you show, the sheeple will always argue until one day when their eyes are opened. They think being behind locked doors will help too, yet they fail to realize how easy it is to open many consumer doors or windows. Heck, even steel rebar and concrete doesn't help as proven many times in Jamaica and elsewhere.

[lonewolf]

Heck, even steel rebar and concrete doesn't help as proven many times in Jamaica and elsewhere.

Break into my castle and I'm gonna fill you full of holes.

[jah_yout]

Witchy, I posted this video when it first happened and it was removed. I assumed because of the brutality of the video that was the reason the mods removed it. And I respect that position if that is the case. Let's see what happens to yours...and me wonders how much air play this would have received if the attacker was white and the victims were black. Sorry, I had to say it...but I'm sure it would have been dicussed on here to the point of nausea if roles were reversed. Instead the topic was not only removed but ignored. Just some of the stuff that makes one say... Hmmm

OK this idiot set back "black" people 700 years in that 'hood...now any black man in that neighborhood will be viewed with suspicion first...but i don't think this is really a racial issue...like the black woman in the video, most black people & people in general are disgusted by this sick crime...and would have been no matter the race of the people involved...just like the "white" home invaders in connecticut a couple of years back who wiped out a white family...everyone was sickened by it regardless of their skin tone...guns to protect your home is the real issue here...but guns in the home is attached to a bunch of other issues as well.
as a youngster i remember a kid i knew getting shot dead by accident by his sister--there was a gun in the home...but those are other issues

[tuffstuff]

OK this idiot set back "black" people 700 years in that 'hood...now any black man in that neighborhood will be viewed with suspicion first...but i don't think this is really a racial issue...like the black woman in the video, most black people & people in general are disgusted by this sick crime...and would have been no matter the race of the people involved...just like the "white" home invaders in connecticut a couple of years back who wiped out a white family...everyone was sickened by it regardless of their skin tone...guns to protect your home is the real issue here...but guns in the home is attached to a bunch of other issues as well.
as a youngster i remember a kid i knew getting shot dead by accident by his sister--there was a gun in the home...but those are other issues

Dude is an animal!! I hope him rep precede him whicheva prison him end up in and a couple beefy guys give him a taste of what its like fi smaddy treat u like dat fi no dam reason!! Tek wah him wnt tek + lef di woman alone! I tght originally it said he raped her as well, but thankfully it nuh look so. But Witchy, owning a gun or having rep in u neighborhood of such, dat wouldna helped her- she couden lef di rm fi go get di weapon

[WitchyOoman]

Dude is an animal!! I hope him rep precede him whicheva prison him end up in and a couple beefy guys give him a taste of what its like fi smaddy treat u like dat fi no dam reason!! Tek wah him wnt tek + lef di woman alone! I tght originally it said he raped her as well, but thankfully it nuh look so. But Witchy, owning a gun or having rep in u neighborhood of such, dat wouldna helped her- she couden lef di rm fi go get di weapon

Yes, I think, in this case, that's quite true. He kept on going back to her to beat her some more!! Jesus God! BUT, had he thrown me down my own cellar staircase, he'd've been d-e-a-d, coz that's where my big effin' gun safe is (the smaller one is upstairs)... and I'd've found a way to crawl back up those stairs - no matter what my injuries were - with one loaded and safety off!

And I don't normally hope for such things, but I too hope and pray that he learns in prison just what' it's like to be treated like he treats women! (And I meant that in every possible sense.)

All he had to do to get what he supposedly wanted was to kick the door in (like he did), bash her down ONCE - she'd've stayed down, and stolen what he stole. He did NOT need to keep on going back to her, time and time again, for God's sake!!

[WitchyOoman]

OK this idiot set back "black" people 700 years in that 'hood...now any black man in that neighborhood will be viewed with suspicion first... but i don't think this is really a racial issue...like the black woman in the video, most black people & people in general are disgusted by this sick crime...and would have been no matter the race of the people involved...just like the "white" home invaders in connecticut a couple of years back who wiped out a white family...everyone was sickened by it regardless of their skin tone.. guns to protect your home is the real issue here... but guns in the home is attached to a bunch of other issues as well. to protect your home is the real issue here...but guns in the home is attached to a bunch of other issues as well. to as a youngster i remember a kid i knew getting shot dead by accident by his sister--there was a gun in the home...but those are other issues

jah yout - you are, sadly, quite right. Milburnites live in a town that is quite heavily white... I'd say nearly 90% if I had to guess it... primarily Christian (although the Jewish population has finally begun to grow there, after more than a century of keeping Jews out and confined to neighboring Maplewood or the following town, South Orange - from which the Jews originated, only*)... and the annual median income per person in Millburn is probably about $180,000 - $190,000. In most cases, both husband and wife work in Millburn, and most Milburnite babies are raised by their nannies. Now, any black man walking around Millburn that isn't known is gonna be 'profiled' byt both the community and by law enforcement! I sure wouldn't wanna be black and male and need to be in Milburn, not after this! Sad. Too sad.

The incident itself has no racial bearing. No one said anything about that. But I know that town well. If you look at an Essex county, NJ, map, you will see how close Orange is to Millburn physically... our neighboring town to the south is South Orange, and S.O.'s neighboring town to the immediate south is Maplewood, and that town's neighboring town to the immediate south is Millburn... you're only talking about a few short miles.

*Maplewood & South Orange were originally one town - the Village of South Orange, which was heavily populated by Jews. Anti-semitism in NJ was very rampant in the 19-teens and the KKK was everywhere here. By 1920-ish, the KKK-sympathetic Protestants did not want to live an a town that was heavily (maybe even primarily) Jewish... but they couldn't just get rid of the Jews, as the Jews were the dominant voting block... so the anti-semitic Protestants (it was mostly Presbyterians and Baptists) did the next best thing - they took a major financial hit and seceeded from the Village of South Orange and formed their own town - Maplewood. Yet, they did not have enough children to make it legally advisable or financially advisable to start up their own school system - so they were forced to combine with the South Orange School system... and to this day, it is still the combined South Orange-Maplewood School District! (with the S.O. name coming first) Ironically, as Jewish people in S.O. got wealthier and wealthier, despite anti-semitism through the 1060s, many Jews moved out of South Orange as there was an influx of newer Jews with less money, and then later another influx of other races than whites, and moved into maplewood... and then further into Millburn. By the 1990s, neither town (Millburn or Maplewood) was exclusively Protestant any more... nor even exclusively white any more - although Millburn is still very primarily white. This history of the area is complete, and comes to me first-hand (although anyone will tell you it's accurate) from my father-in-law and from Mr Witchy... both of whom lived [through] it.

Witchy, I posted this video when it first happened and it was removed. I assumed because of the brutality of the video that was the reason the mods removed it. And I respect that position if that is the case. Let's see what happens to yours...and me wonders how much air play this would have received if the attacker was white and the victims were black. Sorry, I had to say it...but I'm sure it would have been dicussed on here to the point of nausea if roles were reversed. Instead the topic was not only removed but ignored. Just some of the stuff that makes one say... Hmmm

lonewolf, it may have been HOW you presented it, maybe???
Precisely because I'm discussing it regarding guns in one's home for self-defense - and not any racial issue - perhaps the mods feel differently about it. After all, this particular attack has nothing whatsoever to do with race, other than the fact that, as jah-yout says, it's sad that now the people of this particular town - who are primarily wealthy whitebread-style whites (the kind that don't normally live with or near, or associate socially with, black folk) are now given yet more reason for their prejudices to grow. NOT ALL Milburnites are prejudiced, but that particular town is one of a few, hereabouts, that is populated with more prejudiced white people than most others of this general area. I don't know how to express to you or any other j'commer just how shocking it is to the rest of us in Essex county, NJ, that it happened in Millburn, of all places!! :shock: Things like this just do not happen in Millburn! (Or Roseland, or Livingston, or the Caldwells, or Maplewood, Essex Fells, etc!) Thing like this are supposed to happen in the ghettos of Newark (NJ)... or in East Orange... or in Irvington... or, even where I live, in Orange. Or maybe in parts of West Orange ... or South Orange. But MILLBURN?!! NO!!!

[WitchyOoman]

Witchy, don't bother. Sometimes, the sheeple, for lack of a better term, take a while to learn when the wolf observes from the woods.

It doesn't matter what you come up with, or what facts you show, the sheeple will always argue until one day when their eyes are opened. They think being behind locked doors will help too, yet they fail to realize how easy it is to open many consumer doors or windows. Heck, even steel rebar and concrete doesn't help as proven many times in Jamaica and elsewhere.

Linskinny: Yes, sheeple will always be sheeple - by definition they can be no more/better.
BUT, I believe that there are j'commers who are not sheeple still left here.

It is to these ^ j'commers that I speak. If/when the day comes that there is no one left to speak to here, I shall leave.
Thus far, I believe there are still some people who can and do think for themselves.

[Blackstar*]

[WitchyOoman]

Or....... maybe not, Linskinny. Maybe you were right, after all.