Why does god allow natural disasters...?

**acceptedtoday** · 01-26-2010, 04:24 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But for some reason, this rational understanding which is really quite obvious in these cases can be superceded if it conflicts with something for which you honestly have zero proof, but which you have been somehow conditioned to accept and believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, and evidence which I think you can see, you actually do accept.

I'm sorry if this sounds blunt, but in this day and age, to put the myths and the contents of the Bible, or unsubstantiated belief in a deity, before what is considered scientific fact, is not rational, and in fact, is detrimental to society at large.

I think it's really something extraordinary to praise and thank God for a person being pulled from the rubble of Haiti, while so many other people were not saved. I wouldn't be able to look at their family who survived them, and not feel a way about that while thanking God for saving me.</div></div>
_________________________

Have you ever considered that the experience you may have about your catholic faith is not the experience others may have of theirs.
Have you ever wondered that the "myth" you assert to the Bible may be a lack on your part to experience something thats above and outside your realm of knowledge.
Have you ever been moved by a spiritual experience that opens up your experience thats there is more to our existence here that eat drink reproduce pass on our DNA for tommorrow you die.

What condescending is that you and others fail to acknowledge that the sum total of your experience pales in experience of others and that there is wisdom and understanding of something you are unable to grasp.
That you are the one in lack.

**f0rTyLeGz** · 01-26-2010, 04:44 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Taking this story on its face value is easy. Applying it to current events is harder. So here's what I interpret to mean when Jesus said, "Why are you afraid? Have you no faith?" .. faith is not supposed to make us blind to the storms. Faith is supposed to make us unafraid of the storms. Faith is not about my ability to muster up belief that this story really happened the way Mark wrote about it. Faith is my ability to choose to see how this can apply to the storms in my life: illness, not getting the job promotion, earthquakes, etc. In the end (for me) faith is a choice I make. And the choice I make is to see that in the middle of a storm, I need to see that I need not be afraid, for fear is dangerous - more dangerous than an earthquake even. We have no control over the storm. But we have control over how we react to the storm.

I interpret Mark's story this way: If I choose to have faith in God's presence in the middle of a storm then my fear of the storm will be eased and I can more effectively deal with the storm.

See my point? </div></div>
I see what you are saying... but I think you are reading into the story much more than is there. The disciples <span style="font-style: italic">were</span> afraid for their lives. I wouldn't be afraid of ANYTHING either if I could make the sea calm, and still the winds... would you?

Jesus was teaching that EVERYONE has this power (the power to move mountains)... if they have faith, if they really believe. Jesus was teaching his group to have this kind of faith in his god.

Your interpretation is kind and a sympathetic way to look at the story, that one shouldn't be afraid, and <span style="font-style: italic">trust</span> God to be nice, and to not be afraid. But in the story Jesus acts, he demonstrates great personal power... he does something supernatural and changes the weather right then and there... much to the amazement of his followers.

**Peasie** · 01-26-2010, 05:16 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The disciples <span style="font-style: italic">were</span> afraid for their lives. I wouldn't be afraid of ANYTHING either if I could make the sea calm, and still the winds... would you? </div></div>

excellent thought. mek mi pandah pan dis a moment

**rudemonk** · 01-26-2010, 09:42 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But for some reason, this rational understanding which is really quite obvious in these cases can be superceded if it conflicts with something for which you honestly have zero proof, but which you have been somehow conditioned to accept and believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, and evidence which I think you can see, you actually do accept.

I'm sorry if this sounds blunt, but in this day and age, to put the myths and the contents of the Bible, or unsubstantiated belief in a deity, before what is considered scientific fact, is not rational, and in fact, is detrimental to society at large.

I think it's really something extraordinary to praise and thank God for a person being pulled from the rubble of Haiti, while so many other people were not saved. I wouldn't be able to look at their family who survived them, and not feel a way about that while thanking God for saving me.</div></div>
_________________________
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you ever considered that the experience you may have about your catholic faith is not the experience others may have of theirs.
</div></div>

each person has their own conditioned experiences. it is wisdom, knowledge, and understanding which wrestles with these experiences and places them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you ever wondered that the "myth" you assert to the Bible may be a lack on your part to experience something thats above and outside your realm of knowledge.</div></div>

please provide an example.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you ever been moved by a spiritual experience that opens up your experience thats there is more to our existence here that eat drink reproduce pass on our DNA for tommorrow you die.
</div></div>

yes, why? what do you think that proves?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What condescending is that you and others fail to acknowledge that the sum total of your experience pales in experience of others and that there is wisdom and understanding of something you are unable to grasp.
</div></div>

wow, well, I would never pretend to know that about someone. can you do me a favor and just pm me the lotto numbers for the drawing thursday. sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet million, it's sweeter than sweet!

really now accepted, I don't know what pales in experience of others is really trying to say.

Well I am not interested in comparing or paling other people's experiences or summing them up by what they believe against any kind of benchmark? And I'm not sure where that comes from to be honest, nor does it make much sense as to why people think that without a claim of knowing what God is all about, life is somehow less rich or something.

A person is welcome to believe or feel what they want until it starts to effect others, or harm themselves. If they believe in the easter bunny, or that the Hale Bopp comet is swinging around to take them up into space- I'll show the evidence for why that is not possible. Didn't you state above, something like truth hurts. You just seem to like it so long as it's your version of truth.

Someone like Pat Robertson needs some hurtful truth!!!

Without science, without a way of <span style="font-style: italic">knowing</span> the veracity of a truth claim, Pat Robertson is fine to believe in all those hurtful things. Why shouldn't people believe him?

If something pokes a hole in what you think you need to believe, you get upset and insulted. That's kind of crazy, man.

What I would like to point out is that it is entirely possible to live a full and engaged and 'spiritual' life without a belief in God. That's your assumption, and your ignorance, if you think that is not possible, and you are wrong to hold such a belief. In fact, you sort of prove yourself wrong, because I'd wager you feel like you live a pretty full and wonderful life, and there is a distinct possibility that there is no God. Yet there you are. Fooling yourself perhaps, but still doing what you seem to think is not possible if there is no God.

And this is something commonly used against people who express a sincere questioning about life, why there is evil and who are not satisfied with mythic explanations, if there is or isn't a God, and why there should be a belief in god when the argument is put forth by those convicted of their beliefs. They can't imagine moral or ethical law being possible without a belief in God. So if someone reject the absurd, suddenly you are all about eating pooping and sleeping and making babies and that's the sum total you can hope for until you die? Wow.

That makes no sense accepted and that's a low opinion of humanity my friend. That's like saying non christians have no life, produce nothing worthy of being called a culture, add nothing to the human condition- it is saying that in fact there are NOT truths which are self evident to all man.

That my friend is the kind of thinking that led to the justification of religious atrocity.

Some of the best Christians I know are actually Buddhist monks. I say that all the time. They lead very full and wonderful lives, touch a lot of people, do a lot of the kinds of things Jesus taught people to do. But they don't believe that there has to be a god, or that to somehow placate himself, he had to send himself so that he could be killed to appease himself to fix a mistake he made when he kicked off the whole charade.

The absurdity of this wrinkle of Christianity will quickly become apparent if you put yourself in the position of God. And in fact, it's something that Jesus never actually said- he never once said he was here to correct the incident in the Garden, he only mentions Adam and Eve once and that was in reference to something entirely different and I think in one of his genealogies.

So one must wonder, if that was really his mission, wouldn't he have stated such, especially when point blank asked what one had to do, to gain eternal life?

The fact is some people follow more of Christ's teachings than half the people who go to church every sunday and declare themselves. even Jesus used such people as an example.

My experience of Christianity is not just Catholicism. If you can't tell, I am a voracious student of Myth and religions and spiritual systems. "Monk" is not just a nickname.

And I mean "Myth" with all due respect. Your beliefs did not develop out of nowhere, were not dropped to the earth in a book my friend. They were formed in a mythic cauldron with lots of ingredients. It's possible to study these things. Maybe you would find some interesting surprises.

Personally I am always looking for answers. The difference between us my friend is that I rely on evidence to determine which answers are the right ones, to the extent that can be found out.

You already think you have it all right, your system is closed to new information. That means that if new information comes to light which would necessitate a rethinking, you would not. Like evolution. That is indeed your loss, at least academically speaking because probably you will go through your whole life and be fine and everything regular. But as I pointed out, if push came to shove, you would definitely prove that science was stronger than your faith if necessary to secure your life, and you would be right to do that.

If you had heart failure, you wouldn't think twice if science could replace your faulty heart valve with a new one, grown from your own cells, because of evolution being right. Would you?

At least I think I am safe in assuming that about you. You don't think God hates amputees or Haitians do you?

**britisha** · 01-26-2010, 11:48 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

**chukkle** @ Accepted2's lass comment.

Monk, I must confess that you still have me confused when it comes on to your dealing with the topic at hand. I wonder why you haven't answered the questions that I posed.

Suffice it to say, I think you got in over your head. This question has baffled philosophers and theologians for ages, and NO answer is satisfactory to everyone...therefore everyone walks away with what seems satisfactory an explanation..

...with all that being said, I find it hilarious that a God that you don't respect, love nor believe in, you ascribe attributes to; however negative...while essentially, you are really saying that HE DOES EXIST; asserting validity in some sort of a way.... powerful and mighty to wreak havoc and cause harm...therefore HE is not All-knowing, All-wise, All-good, Omniscient, Omnipresent...etc etc but at the same time He exists....does that make any sense? I think not..especially because God does NOT need all those philosophical attributes for His existence/Being...<span style="font-weight: bold">GOD IS, WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE</span> regardless of those philosophical attributes.

I see you have invested a lot of time trying to disprove the existence of the God that Christians believe in; again, something that some of the greatest minds have failed to do.

In conclusion, no one has proven the existence of God, and in similar light, no one HAS nor can prove that He doesn't exist; and which is not apparent as being related to the topic..

Permit me to say, reference to "evil" was made as if the earthquake is something "evil" caused by an evil Deity...

Wellllll, heeeere we go again...if there must be a sensible argument, it only stands to reason that folks must agree on definitions in advance ....if that is not the case, it will be a tug of war from the get go.

What's regarded as good in someone's moral eyes [like slavery] might be totally offensive to others and vice versa...therefore, not everyone might agree that the earthquake or earthquakes for that matter are "evil"...[some are saying that it is good to wipe out poor people... ] Some argue that it will create a new hope for a country ravished and made impoverished by criminals...People kill in self-defense and regard it as a "good act"...do you see where I'm coming from? There's more to the topic than whether God exists...but aawn yah, nevah mind...

...also, there are cultures that welcome Death, and rejoice when a person or persons die. Not everyone sees death as something negative; especially some Christians who believe in the Resurrection. So when these questions get asked, we have to be sure that we understand the agenda/motive for doing so...e.g. is it to discredit belief in the Judea-Christian God, mock, or to seek explanation[s] to unusual occurrences or whateva.

Finally, Jesus the Christ was a philosopher...ponder His words.

**britisha** · 01-26-2010, 11:52 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">BREVITY IS THE SOUL OF WIT </span>

**rudemonk** · 01-27-2010, 06:24 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

you'll forgive me britisha for pointing out your response is quite ironic.

which is something I rather enjoy.

i see that I have confused you about my reply, because I never once claimed that I proved God does not exist, nor have I ever suggested that anyone can do such a thing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...with all that being said, I find it hilarious that a God that you don't respect, love nor believe in, you ascribe attributes to; however negative...while essentially, you are really saying that HE DOES EXIST; asserting validity in some sort of a way.... powerful and mighty to wreak havoc and cause harm...therefore HE is not All-knowing, All-wise, All-good, Omniscient, Omnipresent...etc etc but at the same time He exists....does that make any sense? I think not..especially because God does NOT need all those philosophical attributes for His existence/Being...GOD IS, WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE regardless of those philosophical attributes.
</div></div>

This is perfect actually, as an example. According to this construction, I can say that you just proved the existence of Odin. Odin, IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE. And you prove it every time you write "Wednesday" in your plan book. Since you refer to him, and talk about him, you show he exists, by saying he doesn't.

You see it's a fine point, but it shows a preconditioned mind, as you feel free to create arguments then assign them to me, and structure your own responses as if they were solid 'proofs' when they are not, but because of your frame of reference and the truth claims you feel to accept, you don't see the flaws.

your mind has been conditioned to accept one definition of God, and from there you judge. yet I have been accused of having to be right. again, irony.

I don't have a belief in a kind of God, I've layed out logically the best that can be said about him if he does exist- and so I readily admit it is possible a God exists, and have stated so very clearly.

What I can say I believe does not exist, is a logically absurd God. And I can prove or disprove anything that is claimed for his behalf which is testable and falsifiable. Which is why the question of evil is central to the problem of determining, IF he exists, what can be said about him.

Which is to say, there is no way to believe in a God who made man out of a lump of clay 6,000 years ago, and stood by while something else he created raped his newborns and ruined them, which would then require Him to wait a few thousand years of intense human suffering, then send Himself down to die for Himself, so that He could be appeased for what He did.

It is not logical, given the stated claim that God loves man, that he would place them under threats from the Trees. And so on. And Jesus never said that anyway. It was Paul who made that up.

Would you place a child in your care in a room with milk, cookies, and a .45 magnum?

There is no logical, rational way, to believe in a God who would let sin enter the world through human action or "free" will. Not and say that he is moral and ethical and just.

I hope that makes sense to you now.

Also, I am not suggesting the earthquake can be personified as 'evil.' the Distinction there is 'natural' evil. Evil is the connotation because the earthquake, which it would be in God's power to prevent, causes untold, horrible suffering.

Even our meagre, mortal, flawed legal systems recognize that if one has the ability and power to help others, and chooses not to, that this is morally reprehensible and those persons so unmoved are shunned if not also punishable by law. That's why I tried to make it clear, that IF God exists, he's probably not omnipotent, at least if he is omnipotent, then he is not benevolent. Please note the word "if".

I'm afraid you have me at a loss as to how slavery can be moral, because if a person were to put forth such a proposition, they would be wrong. Only non rational people can accept the justification of slavery.

To overcome horror and tragedy is a poor excuse for having to go through it, when one begins to factor in scale.

For example, would you rather have the opportunity to 'grow' by working hard and going to school? Or be born into a brothel in Calcutta.

I'd also like to share with you that for me, this is not strictly an academic exercise, but a practical one, and my concern is that indeed, innocent people are in fact born into brothels.

**britisha** · 01-27-2010, 07:25 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

***aye sah**

**rudemonk** · 01-27-2010, 12:19 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

do you see how you just proved the existence of Odin, Zeuss, Kronos, the one eyed Aboriginal Mother Goddess...etc. etc?

you consider the truth claims for all these other hosts of gods as absurd- and rightfully so! But if you talk about them or discuss them or show why it is absurd to believe in a God of Thunder (and Rock n' Roll), you show they also exist, by your own premise?

so you should see quickly why it is of course logically possible to discuss something that does not exist.

**britisha** · 01-27-2010, 10:18 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

**cha** "intellectual dishonesty" twisting my words to accomplish your aim..

FYI..when I say that you confuse mi, I am saying that for the modicum that I manage to comprehend from your posts, your mode and style of communicating leave a lot to be desired; therefore I find it confusing and even difficult to understand what you are trying to say. That doesn't allow for any reasonable exchange... it is also clearly evident that you dug yourself into a hole [with all that nonsensical loquacity], from which you cannot extricate yourself...you are on your own.

**aye sah*

Walk good.

**f0rTyLeGz** · 01-27-2010, 10:40 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call it intelectual dishonesty, the dishonesty to (not?) accept the claims of the bible but every two bit opinion that panders to evolutinistic origins is applauded.</div></div>
<span style="font-size: 14pt">Medical Students May Soon Be Tested on Evolution</span>

ScienceDaily (Jan. 25, 2010) — What does evolution -- a field that often deals with changes over many generations -- have to do with preventing and treating disease in our lifetime? A lot, some scientists say. If recent recommendations are implemented, future physicians may soon be tested on evolution in medical entrance and licensing exams, says an international group of doctors and researchers.

A collection of articles in the January 26 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences illustrates recent progress in applying evolutionary theory to a range of questions in medicine and public health, from why some people age slower and live longer than others, to why humans suffer from mental illnesses like autism and schizophrenia, to why we have higher rates of cancer than other species.

The rest of the story>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0126091731.htm

**Dr.Dudd** · 01-27-2010, 11:24 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call it intelectual dishonesty, the dishonesty to (not?) accept the claims of the bible but every two bit opinion that panders to evolutinistic origins is applauded.</div></div>
<span style="font-size: 14pt">Medical Students May Soon Be Tested on Evolution</span>

ScienceDaily (Jan. 25, 2010) — What does evolution -- a field that often deals with changes over many generations -- have to do with preventing and treating disease in our lifetime? A lot, some scientists say. If recent recommendations are implemented, future physicians may soon be tested on evolution in medical entrance and licensing exams, says an international group of doctors and researchers.

A collection of articles in the January 26 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences illustrates recent progress in applying evolutionary theory to a range of questions in medicine and public health, from why some people age slower and live longer than others, to why humans suffer from mental illnesses like autism and schizophrenia, to why we have higher rates of cancer than other species.

The rest of the story>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0126091731.htm
</div></div>The basis of the medicine i studies is rest on the recognition of evolution.
So I don't see it possible for students to be tested on evolution.
Since we don't study evolution.
they won't be practicing evolution and they won't be prescribing evolution.
I think they need to leave the training of physicians to

**f0rTyLeGz** · 01-28-2010, 12:06 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The basis of the medicine i studies is rest on the recognition of evolution.
So I don't see it possible for students to be tested on evolution.
Since we don't study evolution.</div></div>
hunh? lol you put me to the test DD cause I just don't know what you are trying to say there above?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they won't be practicing evolution and they won't be prescribing evolution.</div></div>
I have a feeling that you didn't read the article... another portion below:

"In terms of immediate payoffs, right up at the top of the list are antibiotic resistance and cancer," said Stephen Stearns, a biologist at Yale University. Because of their rapid rates of reproduction, both bacteria and cancer cells quickly evolve resistance to the drugs we use to fight them. "Some develop resistance in just one or two years after drug release," explained Diddahally Govindaraju of the Boston University School of Medicine. "Antibiotic resistance and resistance to chemotherapy are problems that cause enormous suffering and death and also sky-high costs," added Stearns. "We can alleviate these problems if we manage the way we use chemotherapy drugs and antibiotics so as to slow or prevent the evolution of resistance."

Meanwhile in the world of infectious disease, techniques developed by evolutionary biologists -- such as methods for reconstructing genetic relationships, or family trees -- have been used to trace the origins of pathogens like flu, SARS, and HIV. By uncovering where these diseases came from and how they spread, public health officials can better prepare for outbreaks in the future.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think they need to leave the training of physicians to </div></div>
More incompressible posting DD. What does that sentence mean?

**acceptedtoday** · 01-28-2010, 02:15 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

Are we at that stage of the discussion, debate, argument where it is permissable to cut and paste??
See here >>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=rX3tGSz...;q=&f=false

**rudemonk** · 01-28-2010, 02:57 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

right. I lost you.

that's okay, no need to get upset, I've engaged in this debate hundreds of times so there are lots of ways to redevelop this exchange.

so let's try a different path.

how do you prove that Odin does not exist. obviously, in your mind, you have done this. But how? Part of it is obviously cultural. You're not scandinavian, and in your social conditioning, it's just known that Odin is a Myth. But fact remains, like if you were born to muslims, then odds would be favorable that you would be an Odin worshipper if born in the context where such belief held sway.

you really can't <span style="font-style: italic">prove</span> that Odin doesn't exist. if any god is possible, they all are possible.

Now please understand, I'm not twisting your words Britisha. You set up a "logical" premise by saying that by dismissing truth claims about something, you are actually proving that something exists.

So that is obviously a fallacy. Which you don't like being shown, so now I'm in some kind of hole which I have supposedly dug myself into somehow.

I'm definitely not buried lol. If anybody is in a hole here it's you and I'm holding out a hand to show you why you are in the hole so I hope you take some time and think about it. I am simply showing you that according to your own premise, it does not prove what you think it does.

so it is also with your belief and conception of God- once you concretize it, it really becomes irrational and you have to engage in irrational premises in order to defend it from logic proofs whose inevitable conclusion is agnosticism, if rationally followed through.

Were you able to follow the logical argument as to why it is absurd to pose the premise that the universe exists, therefore it must have a creator, and that creator must be god?

You see that you can then substitute "Universe" for "God" in the premise?

Many people wrongly make a poor logical assumption. They posit that the universe must have a beginning and that therefore God must have caused it.

The problem is that what then created God. So you see it's the same problem and can be no answer. All you can really do is claim agnosticism.

The answer can only be "I Don't Know." Which means that logically, God is just a crutch of a step to give yourself a buffer zone, to make people comfortable, according to how they feel.

What I hope you will soon see is that what "defeats" or "proves" Odin defeats or proves God.

Do you see how it is leading to special pleading, when giving the three main premises for God's being: omnipotent, and omniscient, AND benevolent, while evil and suffering of innocents exists?

I mean this problem was obvious in the mythologizing part of early Christianity, hence Paul's inventions.

Why does god allow natural disasters...?

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