A lost Rose & My Quest

**Nanook** · 09-17-2011, 06:30 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

Sandi, I have a whole lot of answer for you later this evening when I get home from work and settled in after dog care. Phone typing it all would result in many a typo! Stay tuned..

**Nanook** · 09-17-2011, 10:37 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

Before I gush on any more about puppy and all the other wonderful kids of the past, and before I move on to how to go about finding a good Doberman breeder, or any other breed for that matter, I must pay a little tribute to Rose. She only has one pic in this whole thread so far and in the pic she is old and frail and pretty much blind. This thread is about her in the first place, so she deserves better than that..

We figured Rose was around 3 when some guy wandered into the shelter and left her there, saying "she's gonna bite someone". She was spayed, and formally obedience trained way beyond just beginners. People just don't spend 3 years in formal training and spay an animal and drop it off like it is nothing.

Shelter workers poured over newspaper ads for lost Dobermans far and wide, and checked her for tattoos and microchip but there were none.

The person running the shelter took Rose home with her. Her name was actually Ginger. Yes, a black Doberman, named Ginger. duh.

Once Ginger was in the new surroundings, she fit in like she had always been there. She slept with the son who was around 12 I think, and played with the cats and the 5 dogs. If it wasn't for the 5 dogs already, they would have kept her in a heartbeat but one of the children got sick and ended up in the hospital so an extra dog was bad timing. Will I at least foster her? Of course! How could I say no. She got my name from Minnesota Doberman Rescue. A couple of days earlier I wrote to inquire about adopting, as Lexi was having a bad time with Wobblers and it looked certain I was going to lose him.

What are the odds a girl like Rose would fall in my lap just like that? Within 2 days??? After a trip to the chiropractic vet Lexi was magically able to get up and walk so I really was planning to just foster Ginger for awhile. For about two seconds...

She entered my back seat as Ginger. I took her picture...

August 2003 in the shelter parking lot

She exited the car at a friends rose shop. I stopped in to show them this new beautiful girl I was bringing home, and my friends sister, (we have all known each other for decades), was there with her daughter Rose. I think it is a calling, this dog needs to be named Rose.

"Yes, I think I am going to keep her", was my answer to that question! And her name is Rose". a/ka nosy Rosie/aka/ Rosebud the Dobergirl.

That was all she wrote, except for one thing; no man trained that dog. No man owned that dog. Rose did not dislike men, but she was wary of them.

Rose did not have an aggressive bone in her body. Well, of all of my Dobermans, she is the only one I could say without a doubt would protect me. She had a very strong will, and not just anyone could have handled her. Not if you didn't know obedience, or at least enough about dogs to treat one with respect.

It will remain one of those life's unsolvable mysteries. I am pretty sure Rose was stolen, and maybe from very far away. Somewhere there had to be someone missing this dog immensely. Someone who put years into making her perfect. The only other conceivable thing I can think of is that she had a female owner that passed away & the people left behind did not know what to do with such a trained dog.

This is Rose the first or second night at my house.

Yeah, she's a real killer, that one.

This is just a few months later. She fit in with the MinPins like a glove. See ChaCha lying on top of her? The MinPins adored their big sister.

Will someone please tell me where this beautiful dog came from? She was truly a gift. When I was getting a couple of hip replacements I made her a service dog. We've been to the malls and restaurants and walking trails. She was like an appendage for our entire 8 years together. Well, one week short of 8 years.

Rose was also very needy, emotionally. Who can blame her? She got dumped after spending her life learning to be perfect.

We went island hopping and rode on ferries

My getting the mail partner...

She taught the new puppy Paris everything she knew. Rose was a fabulous big sister.

The most sweet loving girl anyone could ask for. Smart as a whip. I swear she could read my mind. I didn't have to tell her much, she just knew..

The birch tree photo session became an annual event

Dyam I miss that girl. Bad.

I wear her around my neck in a bead. When I got her ashes back the first thing I did was start encasing small amounts in molten glass and making them into beads. It is comforting to be able to take her places, even if it is just in this form.

RIP sweet baby girl, see you at the bridge..

.

**kia027** · 09-17-2011, 10:42 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

such a beautiful story of Rosie
u have a piece of her with you always

**Nanook** · 09-18-2011, 12:00 AM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

Sandi, I think you have an answer to a couple of your questions from reading above. Though all of my Dobermans have been very bonded (it is in their breed, they just are this way), since Rose was a rescue, I think it made her all the more needy. At times she was so needy that it was annoying, so I had to remind myself why this was so.

There is the infamous "Doberman lean", I have never seen one yet that will not walk up to someone they like, and not lean into them.

They want to please their owners in such a way I have never seen. They say Standard Poodles are the 2nd smartest breed behind the Australian Cattle Dog, but I have known MANY Standard Poodles and have one. Sorry, they don't come close to Doberman smart. Some will say it is a different kind of smart. I will give them that. Paris is easy. I will tell you in advance, that all Dobermans are needy in the attention department. They do not do well just relegated to a yard all day, they want to be where you are, all of the time.

This is not to say you can't leave them alone, but I would highly suggest that if a keen interaction with a companion animal is not for you, Dobermans probably are not either. They are not "go sit in the corner" dogs. They can be pests but they will be happy to sit or lie by your side. You do have to shoo them away after awhile. They prefer a couch or a nice soft dog bed near you to a floor. In fact, I have never known one to love laying on a bare floor unless it is hot out!

About what the breeder you contacted told you as to how you cannot bond with an older dog...he is wrong. Very wrong.

The second part about price. Well....I cannot emphasize REPUTABLE breeder enough! Reputable breeder and cheap price unfortunately do not coincide. However, I STRONGLY CAUTION you that if this guy is selling puppies under the age of 8 weeks who have cropped ears, he is a puppy mill or just as bad. (more about that later)

Sandi, just from what you have written in your post about this breeder, I don't care for him, if not just for the fact he is wrong about the age/bonding thing. If he is cropping his own ears this is another sign of a puppy mill. Ear cropping is surgery. it is the reason I quit showing my Min Pins. I used to have it done. It is expensive, & it was not a frowned upon practice in the US ( I am so sorry I ever had it done in the first place.. now, many years later I do regret it), I am not sure if it is illegal in Germany and other European countries, but I do know you cannot show in with cropped ears there (unless rules have changed). Helga will not have her ears cropped. I am a proponent for the practice to stop happening in the US. I once saw 8 week old puppies in a flea market in Texas with "home cropped" ears and when I asked how they can do this, the guy said they do them when they are just babies at 4 weeks old! I don;t think they even knock them out, they just cut ears off!

The absolute youngest age to do an ear crop on a Doberman, if one chooses to go that route, is 8 weeks old, and then only bey a vet under anesthesia.

This is how they are born, individuals will have varying ear length, and though some will lay flat like this, others may not and will change with expression, etc.

This is a puppy from Helga's litter. maybe it is Helga! I won't know who is who until I get there...

You want a breeder who does health testing for diseases within the breed. Even rescue is doing testing for Von-Willebrand disease, which is like hemophilia in humans and very prevalent in the breed.

Von Willebrands http://ezinearticles.com/?Von-Willeb...amp;id=1338818

I started out searching rescues. Minnesota Doberman rescue charges 300.00 for 8 years and old and up and 400.00 for a puppy. Well, there is still a lot of mystery involved. Like, what were the circumstances that led to the dog being in rescue? Was the dog abused? One good thing about rescue is those dogs are fostered in homes with people that know and love the breed. They are keen on each individual, since these dogs are in homes 24/7 with families and such. They know what kind of person/dog matches will work together, and which dogs in their system will work for who might be applying.

The applications are very formal. Nothing to worry about if the person has a secure environment, can show the agency records from vets of past owned dogs and things like that, but they are dedicated to making sure once placed, the dogs are in forever homes and won't be back.

That is one route. It is a route that one can take if looking for an adult or older puppy, for sure. Just beware of a few things...

Dogs that are bred by reputable breeders, are sold with contracts and some pretty hefty screening in the first place. The puppies from reputable breeders seldom, if ever, land in shelters, for there is usually a clause in the contracts that stipulate that if for any reason the puppy buyer cannot keep the dog during it's lifetime, that the dog must be returned to the breeder. Reputable breeders make a lifetime commitment to the puppies they bring in this world, it is THEIR responsibility to make sure the dog will be placed with buyers that will do the puppy right.

This is all I have for tonight, been a long day. Check you pm Sandi, I will send you a link. My breeder is probably about as close to you as she is to me. Closer maybe, I am in for a very long drive. She has no adults. She did place an adult with an 80 year old couple just a month ago and they are all doing wonderfully! I was a few weeks to late for that, but after all the considering I have done, I am elated to be starting with a puppy. They are going on 12 weeks old..

**Nanook** · 09-18-2011, 06:18 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

More answers to Sandi's questions: (this information is universal, and applies to EVERY breed)

Doberman Pinscher breeders to avoid:

Finding and purchasing a Doberman puppy is not nearly the arduous task most Doberman puppy buyers create for themselves. With our experience, both purchasing and breeding Doberman Puppies, I hope to guide the aspiring Doberman owner down a simpler and safer path to owning a fine example of the beloved Doberman Pinscher breed.

The first step in finding your Doberman puppy, after determining that in fact the Doberman is the right breed for you, is finding a good breeder. These steps are just as relevant if you are looking for a show Doberman, or just a pet. A good Doberman breeder is one who breeds with the goal of producing healthy well tempered Dobermans that will be a progressive addition to the breed. To help you identify a good breeder, we have described several general types of breeders you are likely to encounter, starting with ones to avoid, as follows:
Backyard Breeder

The ‘Backyard Breeder’, as Joanna Walker refers to the type in her book The Doberman Pinscher, is the type you can find any time in the local news paper ads. This Doberman breeder has little knowledge of the Doberman breed or his breeding stock, puts little time or money into his breeding activities, and will be interested in placing his puppies and uninterested in where they are placed. A phone call to this type of Doberman breeder will likely yield little more information beyond, “yes, we have puppies.” You will be encouraged to come by and take a look.

His puppies will be adorable, like all puppies, and the parents will unlikely be available, but from “champion lines” (nearly every Doberman has a champion somewhere in their lines). To any health questions the answer will be: “yes, they are tested for everything, they’re healthy”.

The trouble here is that the breeder is breeding for purposes other than health, sure temperament, and betterment of the Doberman breed. This is a big problem. If a breeder is not breeding specifically for health and temperament, guess what? Right, the puppies will not be healthy or well tempered. You might get lucky, but remember even the best breeders breeding only for health and temperament get unhealthy poor tempered puppies, so your chances with a Backyard Breeder are bad.

Likely, what has happened, as it often has; a person with no dog experience other than owning one here or there decided one day to purchase a Doberman puppy. After a little shopping, he learns that Doberman puppies regularly sell for over $800, at times in excess of $2000. Wow! I need to get into this! Filled with uneducated preconceived notions, this person usually purchases a female and breeds it to which ever Doberman stud is available for a small price.

Of course, breeding is a very complicated, dangerous, and expensive process to do right. The Backyard breeder finds ways around most of these costs, accepts certain “facts” such as loosing puppies, and avoids much of the responsibility by leaving the mother to do all the work alone in a basement or outside building. The Doberman, unlike wild dogs or less domesticated breeds, do poorly without their human counterparts throughout the breeding and birthing process.

Shots, worming, and ear cropping will all be optional with this breeder as will a clean purchasing contract. The puppies go for cheep and he is willing to send puppies home to early. This breeder simply wants to sell puppies and doesn’t need to get much for them because he hasn’t put much into them.

Even if the puppies look good, no matter how cute and sweet they are, regardless of the breeder showing you pedigrees filled with champions; avoid this breeder. Purchasing a Doberman from him only furthers the destruction of the Doberman Pinscher breed.

One Timer

The One Timer is a person, usually a family, that has purchased a family pet Doberman and wants to breed her before it’s time to spay. There are usually a few friends or family who, after being around a Doberman, have become interested in having a Doberman puppy themselves. The problem here is lack of experience. This breeder, although likely a loving friendly home, is certainly biting off more than they can chew. They have likely breed to a stud based on convenience and are certainly lacking an overall plan for improving the breed.

Such people do not expect breeding a dog to be difficult. They expect this natural process to accure much on it own and figure all they need to do is support the mother. Like purchasing from the Backyard Breeder, purchasing a puppy here is unwise and a detriment to the Doberman breed, only encouraging such activities in other.

Show Breeders

The Show Breeder is a trickier one to spot. He is involved in showing Dobermans and probably has a few champions running around. He’ll have plenty of awesome awards and know everything about confirmation. The trouble here again is breeding goals. Either this breeder is breeding for show Dobermans, or showing Dobermans to increase the price of the Doberman puppies the he breeds.

If he is breeding for show dogs, guess what? He’s not breeding for health and temperament. No, you can’t breed for both. Breeding for just one is a monumental challenge. If the breeder you’re speaking with goes on and on about awards and champion Dobermans he has raised, this is likely the type of breeder he is.

If he is showing Dobermans to increase the price of his Doberman puppies, he is again not breeding for health and temperament. This breeder will also speak much of his champions and awards but will be most interested in placing a puppy with you for a considerable price – justified by his show record.

Even if you plan to show your Doberman, Show Breeders are wise to avoid. A healthy well adjusted Doberman should be your first priority.

Puppy Mills

Before we move on to the good breeders, I want to address the worst breeder of them all, the Puppy Mill. I know what you’re thinking: “A Puppy Mill? I’m not a half-wit. Who would buy a puppy from a Puppy Mill?” and you’re right. Few people, and I say few because I have spoken with several people who actually have, will purchase a puppy from a Puppy Mill. Puppy Mills are off-puttingly ill kept with sometimes hundreds of dogs in poor condition almost always outside. Who knows what is breed to this or that or maybe him.

That is why Puppy Mills sell to Puppy Brokers and Pet Shops. I’m not even going to go into why you should avoid Pet Shops for purchasing your Doberman puppy. Just understand that no breeder that cares for their puppies in any way would let them be marketed retail style.

Puppy Brokers, however, are a different story. They are professionals at finding people just like you and selling them a Doberman puppy – from a Puppy Mill. Of course, part of the sales process is maintaining a credible front. Puppy Brokers often sell from nice homes that could easily be confused with a good breeder’s home. The key to avoiding this ominous pit is to do your research, meet the Doberman parents, study the AKC papers and parents pedigree, and ask plenty of questions, and listening carefully to the answers.

Source

**Nanook** · 09-18-2011, 06:20 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

What Makes a Good Doberman Pinscher Breeder (this information is universal. It applies to all breeds!)

The Master Breeder

Now that we know what to ovoid, let’s see what we need to be looking for in a Doberman Pinscher puppy breeder. We’ll refer to them as Master Breeders. Master Breeders are small scale, not producing more than one to three litters of Doberman Puppies each year. They have a long term plan with specific goals of producing superior Dobermans. They have studied the Doberman breed thoroughly, understand its strength and weaknesses, and use good breeding practices and sound genetic principals.

These breeders are the guardians of the Doberman breed. They have invested huge amounts of time and money into their breeding activities but rarely see a profit; more likely in fact, they loose money – even when selling puppies for in excess of $1000.

As the mother Doberman approaches labor, she known she will be cared for by the Master Breeder, who will sit up with her watching her nest until the first puppy comes. Once they do, she knows he will tend to the cutting of cords and removal and counting of placentas, which if left in the mother can easily poison and kill her in a matter of days.

You’ll know you are speaking with a Master Breeder when all of your questions, and more, are answered thoroughly and passionately. This type of Doberman breeder will also ask you question - lot’s of them. Don’t be offended. This is exactly what you are looking for. Remember, this breeder has put more time and effort into their puppies than you will ever appreciate, and the price you will pay is inadequate. Count yourself luck to have a chance at getting a Doberman Puppy from this breeder.

A Master Breeder will always be there for you. You will be encouraged not only to call with any question, even years after the purchase, but also to let them know how their puppy is doing. They also love getting pictures. When you leave with your puppy, you’ll probably feel bad – like you've taken one of their kids.

Master breeders rarely have puppies on hand. More than likely you will need to wait for the next litter which easily could be months or an entire year away. Their not in the business of puppy sales so don’t treat them like it.

If you have the opportunity to visit the parents or the puppies, respect their home and respect their time. Understand if they make you take off your shoes and wash your hand. If they don’t allow you to see their ‘facilities’ respect this too. Likely, their facilities consist of a bedroom (or in this breeder’s case the dinning room) converted into a puppy nursery, and mommy dogs don’t like strangers in the puppy nursery.

Another thing noticeable about a Master Breeder, besides many happy Dobermans dancing around, is other types of friendly pets. They understand the importance of socialization so there will likely be some cats or small dogs playing with the Dobermans.

You will not likely find a breeder of this quality close by. They are rare and you may need to have the puppy shipped to you. This is common with quality Dobermans. Also common are breeding rights in the purchasing contracts. The breeder may want to keep your puppy as a possible breeding option if it is of superior quality. This can all be discussed with the Master Breeder. They will choose the best puppy for you and arrange the agreement and shipping to best fit your unique situation.

source

**Nanook** · 09-18-2011, 06:23 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

Choosing a Doberman Puppy (again, this is universal and applies to every breed)

Which Puppy is the Best Puppy for You

Once you find a good breeder and have patiently waited the months until your litter is born, how do you choose which puppy will be your Doberman for the next decade? First, let’s go over a few things not to do and counter some of the bad advice I have heard over the years.

A misconception is that there is a, ‘pick-of-the-litter’, meaning the best puppy in the litter, and the ‘runt-of-the-litter’, meaning a small sick puppy. In any well breed litter there will be several ‘picks’ and there should be no ‘runts.’ There are always smaller ones and larger ones, and different puppies will be the picks for different people in different situations wanting to do different things with their Doberman.

Don’t expect a miraculous sign showing which puppy is your’s. I have found that some people expect somehow to ‘know’ which puppy is theirs when they see it. I have also seen puppies volunteer, such as in the instances when we have chosen a few puppies, maybe three, all of which are fitting to a particular aspiring Doberman owner, and one of the three puppies seems to choose their owner. This should not be expected though. The breeder, who lives with the puppies, is your best guide.

Also, when the breeder simply allows the puppy purchaser to choose from several puppies, the tendency is to take an inordinate amount of time choosing. And of course it does; the puppy purchaser doesn’t know the puppies. Try to ovoid this.

If you have found a good breeder, they will have asked you enough questions and know the puppies well enough to choose the best one for you. Even if they are letting you choose from several, they know which one is the very best. The key is to be honest. Beyond the breeder’s questions tell them everything about you and your intentions and let them know you are comfortable with them choosing your puppy. This is how you will get the best Doberman puppy.

source

**SandiF** · 09-19-2011, 10:48 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

Your tribute to Rose is very touching, Nanook. I can tell that you both enjoyed each other company and what a wonderful way to keep her with you...close to your heart. (I love the necklace!)

**SandiF** · 09-19-2011, 11:06 PM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

Nanook -- thank you for the great recommendations in choosing a Doberman Pinscher. I've printed this off for easy reading. You are too good and I appreciate this. I'm still fixated on a Doberman Pinscher as the dog of my choice. Checking the humane society in my neighbourhood and found one which I plan to check out this weekend. They have adult dogs available through their adopt a dog programme. Great looking dogs with wonderful bio... Plan to visit there Saturday to check out the doggies.

**Tulip** · 09-21-2011, 11:46 AM

Re: A lost Rose & My Quest

All the pics of your babies and the story behind Rose were lovely. She was truly special.

Helga should have been home two days now. I know taking on a puppy is a huge responsibility, but I'm bursting at the seams. Soon as you get a moment, it's time to COME WID IT! Introduce Miss Helga.

**Nanook** · 09-21-2011, 08:45 PM

Re:Greetings from BABYLAND!

Good evelin everyone! I have been absent but it has been busy busy. The road trip on Monday was 14 hours total to bring my baby Helga home.

Good luck Sandi! I hope you find the dog of your dreams. He/she is out there, and I firmly believe when the planets line up everything can happen.

Tulip, I did not mean to keep you and everyone else waiting but we have been super busy visiting shopping training bathing and all that good stuff.

Helga deserves her own post so stay tuned!

(be back in a few with lots of pics and story)

**Nanook** · 09-21-2011, 10:07 PM

Re:Come & meet Helga

It was a 14 hours total road trip and baby buying excursion on Monday. Sometimes you have to travel far and wide to find a quality puppy. One mistake a lot of puppy buyers make is when they only consider their immediate area as a source for a pup. I drove to California once for a dog, so southern Minnesota was not so bad.

Tuesday morning I woke up to this staring at me...

Helga

We went to the grooming shop and had a bath first thing on Tuesday morning. Not that Helga was dirty, she was far from it. I don't think she has ever been dirty a day in her life. Helga's breeder had the most wonderful place and it was immaculate, but I like a freshly bathed dog & I bathe often. Besides, a puppy has to learn about grooming, and the earlier the better. Lucky for me, friends own a grooming shop so I can use the facilities any time.

Helga tolerated her bath very well. She hated the dryer so I took it easy on her and only half dried her, then we hung out for a few minutes while she air dried. Off we went to Petco for a nice new collar...

(note, in any pics where she is not shiny black looking, it is the lighting/or iPhone pic She is black as coal and shiny as a diamond)

We spent the rest of the day at home getting acquainted and did a little leash training.

Helga HATED the training collar known as a choke chain. I got absolutely nowhere with it. I know better than to push a puppy very far, as you will usually meet with more resistance than it is worth. It is better to come up with a plan to reach desired results that you can both agree on, than fight over it and later have training issues for life.

Helga led just fine with the flat buckle collar I bought her. Once she goes to formal training we may or may not use the training collar again. I won't use it if I can get Helga to do what I want without it.

Her first foray out into the yard. It will be a little while before I let her run loose. Only when I know she will come every time I call her without fail will I let her loose. It won't be long. I treat train. Come when I call you, get a treat. Potty outside, get a treat. Come over and sit by my feet, get a treat. Helga is very mellow and so far doesn't take advantage of the treat giving. She will soon start to figure out that going outside means coming in and getting a treat, and try to trick me but I am one step ahead of her! (by treat I mean the tiny dog cookies, you can use a lot of them safely one at a time).

On her first leash trip around the yard yesterday

Looking around at her new surroundings. She is used to miles of corn fields, otherwise the quiet countryside is normal for her.

You can see intelligence in her eyes. Helga is very smart. Potty training is going awesome. We are better than halfway there. She hasn't had an accident today but I taker her out often during the day, and we are going out every 3 hours all night. I am thankful the night air is around 50 degrees so it is not so shocking at midnight and 3am. This is so worth it though, when you think of it. Basically, she is trained to go outside and it is up to me to get her there. Today she whined to go out already. Helga is smarter than smart. (lucky me, but Dobermans are in general very intelligent, and Helga is amazing).

The cool weather makes for some pretty plush cool grass, and Helga loves to roll in it

She is so funny! The leash was pulling on her so she was pulling back..

She reminded me of Rose, for Rose loved to roll in the grass

Helga is so beautiful and sweet I feel like I won the lottery by finding her breeder.

**keesha** · 09-21-2011, 10:16 PM

Re:Come & meet Helga

Oh Nanook what a beautiful baby girl. I know you will enjoy and love her as I do Alexander....My lil man is a real joy to have...

**Nanook** · 09-21-2011, 10:22 PM

Re:Come & meet Helga

Thanks keesha! Helga is laying at my feet in a small dog bed under my desk. She won't fit under there for long! I am head over heels in love with her.

**kia027** · 09-21-2011, 10:54 PM

Re:Come & meet Helga

Well Hello Helga!

You are a beautiful puppy! We look forward to watchng you grow!

A lost Rose & My Quest

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